miikkakos
Member
Hello all,
I have been having some problems with C-41 development, with C-41 Digibase Kit. I have now developed 6 rolls with same kind of symptoms. First I developed 4 rolls on single session and after that 2 rolls at the time. So I have only got to do it differently for one time.
Digibase datasheet states that if film near sprocket holes are more magenta and thicker, then the agitation is too vigorous or developer too warm. On my second attempt I did only one turn of agitation with the stick, every 30 seconds as instructed. And my developer was precisely 100 F both times, as per instructions. Of course there might be error on my thermometer, but it is Paterson PTP 381 intended for colour development, so I hope it is working fine.
To make things more complicated, these problematic films were all superia 200. In the mix there was one portra 160, which did also have symptoms but nothing really alarming. I got the portra colours easily corrected after scan with macro lens. Superia colours seem impossible to correct at all. Superia was also bought cheaply from market, so I think it has not been properly taken care for. At the time of shooting, superia was also expired by one year.
So I think my questions are: Is it possible that symptoms I'm seeing here are not from too warm developer or too vigorous agitation? Has anyone properly color corrected Superia with Lightroom or Photoshop? Could my superia be spoilt with heat and expiration, so that the colours are impossible to fix?
I have been having some problems with C-41 development, with C-41 Digibase Kit. I have now developed 6 rolls with same kind of symptoms. First I developed 4 rolls on single session and after that 2 rolls at the time. So I have only got to do it differently for one time.
Digibase datasheet states that if film near sprocket holes are more magenta and thicker, then the agitation is too vigorous or developer too warm. On my second attempt I did only one turn of agitation with the stick, every 30 seconds as instructed. And my developer was precisely 100 F both times, as per instructions. Of course there might be error on my thermometer, but it is Paterson PTP 381 intended for colour development, so I hope it is working fine.
To make things more complicated, these problematic films were all superia 200. In the mix there was one portra 160, which did also have symptoms but nothing really alarming. I got the portra colours easily corrected after scan with macro lens. Superia colours seem impossible to correct at all. Superia was also bought cheaply from market, so I think it has not been properly taken care for. At the time of shooting, superia was also expired by one year.
So I think my questions are: Is it possible that symptoms I'm seeing here are not from too warm developer or too vigorous agitation? Has anyone properly color corrected Superia with Lightroom or Photoshop? Could my superia be spoilt with heat and expiration, so that the colours are impossible to fix?
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znapper
Well-known
No idea, but can it be something similar to this?
http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154498
My issue was that the negatives were slightly overdeveloped, causing the scanner to struggle and have bleeding at the edges.
http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154498
My issue was that the negatives were slightly overdeveloped, causing the scanner to struggle and have bleeding at the edges.
miikkakos
Member
Thank you. That thread was very helpful.
I used macro lens and camera to scan those and had no problems with b&w negatives before. I still tried using template to cover transparent parts of negative. It was just what was needed. Would have never guessed myself.
Edit: And I have to try a little less developing next time. It usually takes couple of extra seconds when pouring chemicals.
I used macro lens and camera to scan those and had no problems with b&w negatives before. I still tried using template to cover transparent parts of negative. It was just what was needed. Would have never guessed myself.
Edit: And I have to try a little less developing next time. It usually takes couple of extra seconds when pouring chemicals.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Stop using:
and
Test for accuracy:
and
Test for accuracy:
is not going to make any difference.
FujiLove
Well-known
It looks like the same uneven development problem I had when I first started C41. I Would try:
1. Dry warming the tank (i.e. Sitting it in warm water rather than filling it).
2. Using a 2% acetic acid stop bath after the dev stage.
3. Making sure agitation happens immediately after, and ideally during, the chemicals entering the tank.
4. I believe I also used the wrong core in the Jobo tank once which caused this. The developer didn't enter the tank very fast and ran down one edge of the film, causing a yellow streak.
Good luck and don't be put off by these problems. My C41 runs great every time now I've got the basic process sorted out.
1. Dry warming the tank (i.e. Sitting it in warm water rather than filling it).
2. Using a 2% acetic acid stop bath after the dev stage.
3. Making sure agitation happens immediately after, and ideally during, the chemicals entering the tank.
4. I believe I also used the wrong core in the Jobo tank once which caused this. The developer didn't enter the tank very fast and ran down one edge of the film, causing a yellow streak.
Good luck and don't be put off by these problems. My C41 runs great every time now I've got the basic process sorted out.
joeswe
Well-known
Could you post a picture of the actual negatives against a diffuse background?
You have already been given some good advice
Density variations along the edges or at the sprocket holes usually indicate issues with agitation (either too little or too much).
Bleach and fix stage is also very important. Insufficient bleach will lead to all kinds of problems (silver retention, problems with dye formation, especially in the cyan layer) Agitate generously. If your kit contains instructions to aerate the bleach before use, take it seriously.
You have already been given some good advice
Density variations along the edges or at the sprocket holes usually indicate issues with agitation (either too little or too much).
Bleach and fix stage is also very important. Insufficient bleach will lead to all kinds of problems (silver retention, problems with dye formation, especially in the cyan layer) Agitate generously. If your kit contains instructions to aerate the bleach before use, take it seriously.
Bill Clark
Veteran
Perhaps your last sentence hits on a possible cause.
When I was developing C-41 I used the Freestyle Arista kit. I found that if I developed 5% to 10% longer I would get more vibrant colors after the on line company I used scanned them. The temperature of the developer needed to be the same (consistent) during the entire developing process, after the developer the temperature of the bleach/fix was more forgiving but needed to be close and consistent during this stage.
I developed one roll at a time. I figured if I made a mistake only one roll would be ruined. Never had to cross that bridge though.
I found that C-41 color film developing was actually easier than black and white as C-41 is C-41 where with black and white there are a many, many different developers each with their own characteristics. My opinion!
Back then, when I worked a gig, I divided up a large cooler into sections with each holding a certain type of film. I used cooler gel in plastic bags/containers. I had the belief that the cooler kept the film at a temperature where it worked best. As I understand, heat for undeveloped films can be a problem.
Just for grins, may I suggest you take a roll of color slide film and develop in C-41. 1960's psychedelic! Clients that hired me wanted some photographs made with this technique. This is before Photoshop at least before I used it.
When I was developing C-41 I used the Freestyle Arista kit. I found that if I developed 5% to 10% longer I would get more vibrant colors after the on line company I used scanned them. The temperature of the developer needed to be the same (consistent) during the entire developing process, after the developer the temperature of the bleach/fix was more forgiving but needed to be close and consistent during this stage.
I developed one roll at a time. I figured if I made a mistake only one roll would be ruined. Never had to cross that bridge though.
I found that C-41 color film developing was actually easier than black and white as C-41 is C-41 where with black and white there are a many, many different developers each with their own characteristics. My opinion!
Back then, when I worked a gig, I divided up a large cooler into sections with each holding a certain type of film. I used cooler gel in plastic bags/containers. I had the belief that the cooler kept the film at a temperature where it worked best. As I understand, heat for undeveloped films can be a problem.
Just for grins, may I suggest you take a roll of color slide film and develop in C-41. 1960's psychedelic! Clients that hired me wanted some photographs made with this technique. This is before Photoshop at least before I used it.
miikkakos
Member
Thank you all for your suggestions. It is very helpful for someone who has just started with C-41 development. I must confess that I was pretty depressed from the results as I have never encountered problems with b&w development and I have read on many places that C-41 is easier. It still feels that one cannot mess up with b&w that bad that the negatives would be unusable, as with C-41 it feels like one could easily mess it up.
I will incorporate all of your suggestions for sure, next time I'm developing. But as stated earlier, I got rid of that excess yellow when I used the template to cover everything else except the image part. I don't really see any problems on the negatives any more, except on one. But that was developed with other films, so I guess there is something else wrong than in development. I also got some blue tones back, where those were yellow or white on my attachments.
And as I'm always ready to experiment, I will try the slide film on C-41 just for fun, as I have not ever done it before. I have thought of doing it before, as the slide is something I would like to try. Only thing keeping me from it is the price. I understand that when cross processing the colours are not what they should and it is not same as processing it in E6, but it should be fun to experiment with it anyways.
I will incorporate all of your suggestions for sure, next time I'm developing. But as stated earlier, I got rid of that excess yellow when I used the template to cover everything else except the image part. I don't really see any problems on the negatives any more, except on one. But that was developed with other films, so I guess there is something else wrong than in development. I also got some blue tones back, where those were yellow or white on my attachments.
And as I'm always ready to experiment, I will try the slide film on C-41 just for fun, as I have not ever done it before. I have thought of doing it before, as the slide is something I would like to try. Only thing keeping me from it is the price. I understand that when cross processing the colours are not what they should and it is not same as processing it in E6, but it should be fun to experiment with it anyways.
valdas
Veteran
for how long do you bleach? digibase gives something around 4:30, which is too short. I had similar problems because of that, but since I started using Kodak C-41 recommendations (the bleach is 6:30) this particular issue was gone.
miikkakos
Member
That is valuable information.
Hopefully I read the datasheet correctly as it didn't really define how it should be interpreted. My bleaching time was around 3 min 30s, as I read the values like this: Temp 32-40 c and Time 3 min - 4 min 20s, so that I would use the longer time with 32 c and shorter time with 40 c. My bleach was 37 c, so 3 min 30 s it is. What I'm thinking that would it be that I should use the first time with first temperature, like 32 c and 3 min.
Of course this all does not matter at all if all the times are too short. I'm not developing anything important, like travel pictures, so I might just test with longer bleach and see what happens.
Thank you for your input.
valdas
Veteran
try using those times (it helped me to improve my results):
http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/chemicals/cis211.pdf
from what I understand (reading various C41 discussions on forums) there is no risk of "overbleaching or overfixing" in C41, so you can safely use longer times, but your results can suffer from too short times.
nbagno
Established
As suggested on APUG, I use a stop bath after development, then a wash then onto the Blix. All of my weird development issues went away.
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miikkakos
Member
It seems that there is lots to experiment with.
Thank you all once again for tips.
Thank you all once again for tips.
Fotohuis
Well-known
Just use the advise and times on 37,8C (38C)-100F. After the developer use a 2% Acetic Acid stop. When re-using the chemicals use a 30S water change between each step.
So: Pre-wash 38C 2 minutes
C-41 dev. 3:15 minutes, 38C
Stop 2% HAc 30s, 38C
Bleach 4:20min. 38C
Water change 30s, 38C
Fixer 6:30min. 38C
3x water change
Stabilizer 1 minut, 38C
Film hanging to dry.
http://www.fotohuisrovo.nl/documentatie/Rollei_Digibase_C41_InstructionManual.pdf
So: Pre-wash 38C 2 minutes
C-41 dev. 3:15 minutes, 38C
Stop 2% HAc 30s, 38C
Bleach 4:20min. 38C
Water change 30s, 38C
Fixer 6:30min. 38C
3x water change
Stabilizer 1 minut, 38C
Film hanging to dry.
http://www.fotohuisrovo.nl/documentatie/Rollei_Digibase_C41_InstructionManual.pdf
joeswe
Well-known
As a basic rule, Bleach and Fix go to completion, you cannot "overbleach" in C41 (within reasonable limits). As incomplete bleaching will compromise image quality (see above), it is recommendable to extend bleaching times (generously) should you encounter problems with your results. The C41 standard time for bleach is 6m30s. Make sure to wash thoroughly between bleach and fix (and of course after fix)
miikkakos
Member
Thank you all for your replies. Haven't really had time to develop my newly shot rolls yet, but I'm going to extend my bleach and fix times to see what that brings to the table.
All the suggestions have been really helpful.
All the suggestions have been really helpful.