Camera: light, compact, quiet. Recommendations?

[ricardovaste]

Firstly, I just want to say 'hello'. I'm Richard, or Rich. I've been recommended this site a number of times in the past but never quite got round to registering, or felt entirely compelled (meaning I had found other solutions). Now I'm in a bit of a pickle... So I thought I'd call on those that have the knowledge, I hope that doesn't offend anyone... If I can contribute in the future then I will do my best to.

I'll try to keep this simple. For personal enjoyment, I use a Prinz 35ER. That's a shutter priority clone of the Minolta hi-matic 7s2. I imagine this is the only forum where many would know that already! To summarise for those who aren't familiar, this is 35mm, fixed lens RF, B-1/8th-500th, 40/1.7, ISO100-800, leaf shutter.

Why I like it:
- light, compact
- quick, but enough control
- RF VF
- Very quiet
- Decent lowlight ability
- Don't have to worry about it breaking

Displeasures:
- RF not accurate, or at least difficult in lowlight.
- ISO 800 is limiting in lowlight
- Erratic electrics. Which is really why it needs replacing now.

I've looked at multiple options but non seem to fit the package perfectly. Yes, I know, nothing and no camera is PERFECT, but I've came here as I thought I may have missed an option, or even not thought something through. So, for those with hands on experience, you may be able to suggest an appropriate camera. So what I want is:

- RF VF. Accurate, good in lowlight (not hard to beat this cheap fixed lens here)
- Higher ISO. 3200, 6400. If I can trick it with exposure compensation that's good too.
- Compact, light. So small lens. Overall package around 500g would be good.
- 35-45mm lens. If m-mount, I guess the voigtlander 40/1.4 fits the idea best.
- Quiet. This is the one where everything seems to fall short. With the Prinz, leaf shutter, with backgrounds noise you really couldn't hear it at all which I LOVED. Everything else seems kinda clunky, but I could be wrong...

I guess part of the dilemma is the question in my head of "should I just go digital?". I know not a RF, but something like an X100 could fill a similar void. But then as much as I can train myself, I feel I'm still wasteful with digital, and as this is purely a personal use camera I kind of feel like I should stick with film.

If you have a suggestion, I'm listening...

Thanks for your help!

 

[Frontman]

For a fixed-lens rangefinder camera, the Yashica Electro 35 GL seems close to what you are looking for. It's an aperture-priority camera, like your Prinz, but you can set the ISO as high as 1600, which is more or less the limit in manual focus, fixed-lens rangefinder cameras. The Yashinon 40mm f/1.7 lens is very good, and Yashica Electro cameras have comparatively quiet shutters. The GL was one of the last of the Electros, and was the most refined.

The next step would be to spend the money for a Konica Hexar AF. The Hexar has a silent mode which works so well that even the shooter can't hear it, and it has an ISO range up to ASA 5000. The Hexar's 35mm f/2 lens is phenomenal, and the quality of the lens by itself makes the Hexar a bargain. Adding the silent operation, fast AF, and wide ISO range, you end up with one of the best film cameras ever made.

 

[ricardovaste]

For a fixed-lens rangefinder camera, the Yashica Electro 35 GL seems close to what you are looking for. It's an aperture-priority camera, like your Prinz, but you can set the ISO as high as 1600, which is more or less the limit in manual focus, fixed-lens rangefinder cameras. The Yashinon 40mm f/1.7 lens is very good, and Yashica Electro cameras have comparatively quiet shutters. The GL was one of the last of the Electros, and was the most refined.

The next step would be to spend the money for a Konica Hexar AF. The Hexar has a silent mode which works so well that even the shooter can't hear it, and it has an ISO range up to ASA 5000. The Hexar's 35mm f/2 lens is phenomenal, and the quality of the lens by itself makes the Hexar a bargain. Adding the silent operation, fast AF, and wide ISO range, you end up with one of the best film cameras ever made.

Thank you! I had completely forgotten about the Hexar AF. That does sound very interesting... like it might tick everything. Do you know what it's like in manual focus ? It's difficult to see whether it has much of a distance scale or not... which I do like to use.

 

[thegman]

Really all depends on budget, but it's hard to beat a Bessa for a combo of range finder, interchangeable lenses, price, and modern facilities.

You say you want exposure compensation, so that rules out all Leicas apart from M7. It also means you'll want a meter, which means you're into pricey Leica territory, such as M5 or M6. If you're willing to do without a meter, then M2, M3, M4-P can all be had at almost Bessa prices.

If you like the Voigtlander 40mm f/1.4, then I'd say get that and an R3A or R3M, and you'll have an excellent set up. Get the R3M if you like the idea of a camera still working without batteries in it, get the R3A if you want aperture priority.

 

[Frontman]

Thank you! I had completely forgotten about the Hexar AF. That does sound very interesting... like it might tick everything. Do you know what it's like in manual focus ? It's difficult to see whether it has much of a distance scale or not... which I do like to use.

You can focus manually with the Hexar, the scale is visible through a window on the top of the lens. However, the AF is fast enough that you aren't likely to miss any shots in AF mode.

I have a 35/2 Summicron that I use on my M cameras, but it is not noticeably better than the 35/2 Hexanon, despite costing 5 times as much.

 

[ricardovaste]

You can focus manually with the Hexar, the scale is visible through a window on the top of the lens. However, the AF is fast enough that you aren't likely to miss any shots in AF mode.

I have a 35/2 Summicron that I use on my M cameras, but it is not noticeably better than the 35/2 Hexanon, despite costing 5 times as much.

Thanks Frontman. I'm not too keen on AF for film as I think it makes me a little lazy, but certainly sounds useful. I certainly like the 'look' of the Hexar AF, however I've discovered there are NO shutter speed/aperture value info in the VF. I guess that's part of the 'reasonable amount of control' I get with the Prinz... you can still see exposure value. I can see why some might not think it entirely necessary, but it's definitely something I want in the viewfinder.

For the same reason, the Yashica seems less interesting. It would give me an extra stop at ISO1600, but I'd lose VF information. Doesn't seem worth it.

 

[bastian a.]

I think a Leica CL would be the best choice. It's small, light, has a good finder and the Summicron 2/40 is a great lens.

 

[ricardovaste]

Really all depends on budget, but it's hard to beat a Bessa for a combo of range finder, interchangeable lenses, price, and modern facilities.

You say you want exposure compensation, so that rules out all Leicas apart from M7. It also means you'll want a meter, which means you're into pricey Leica territory, such as M5 or M6. If you're willing to do without a meter, then M2, M3, M4-P can all be had at almost Bessa prices.

If you like the Voigtlander 40mm f/1.4, then I'd say get that and an R3A or R3M, and you'll have an excellent set up. Get the R3M if you like the idea of a camera still working without batteries in it, get the R3A if you want aperture priority.

By exposure compensation, what I meant was it would be useful if the ISO range was limited to say 1600... so that you could just set the EC to bump it to 3200 or 6400.

As for price, difficult to say. I do like things that are well made, that will last, so I'm not afraid to 'invest' in something that will give me many years in return. I mean, my Prinz has been my companion for 5-6 years and has been shaky in between, but only recently really came to an end.

The Voigtlander 40/1.4 seems to have a traditional rendering which I like, and is the focal length I like, but I'm okay with a 35mm as well. The Bessa R3A/M does seem the obvious choice in some ways, but it seems so loud in comparison?

 

[ricardovaste]

I think a Leica CL would be the best choice. It's small, light, has a good finder and the Summicron 2/40 is a great lens.

Sounded interesting as well, as I do like Minolta stuff. But it's 'weak points' put me off: http://www.cameraquest.com/leicacl.htm

- Unreliable metering
- Unreliable slow shutter speeds
- Focusing accuracy with faster lenses

The metering is an issue with the Prinz, the shutter speeds are not. Again, we're still limited to ISO1600. I could put the 40/1.4 on it, but then I might have issues focusing by the sounds of it...

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

I think you ought to go over to the CL forum and read peoples' comments on the camera. You'll find a lot of us like it and use no other CRF.

Regards, David

 

[ricardovaste]

Hi,

I think you ought to go over to the CL forum and read peoples' comments on the camera. You'll find a lot of us like it and use no other CRF.

Regards, David

Thanks David. I'll have a look around and investigate more.

It doesn't seem to get me into much darker situations, and seems to have reliability issues, so I'm not yet convinced it's the answer, but I have no doubt I'd enjoy shooting with a CL or CLE.

 

[thegman]

By exposure compensation, what I meant was it would be useful if the ISO range was limited to say 1600... so that you could just set the EC to bump it to 3200 or 6400.

As for price, difficult to say. I do like things that are well made, that will last, so I'm not afraid to 'invest' in something that will give me many years in return. I mean, my Prinz has been my companion for 5-6 years and has been shaky in between, but only recently really came to an end.

The Voigtlander 40/1.4 seems to have a traditional rendering which I like, and is the focal length I like, but I'm okay with a 35mm as well. The Bessa R3A/M does seem the obvious choice in some ways, but it seems so loud in comparison?

OK, so you're completely set on having a meter of some kind? Must it be built-in?

The Voigtlander cameras are very nice, but they don't reek of quality in the way a Leica does. The Zeiss Ikon is somewhere in the middle of a Leica and Bessa.

The Zeiss Ikon to me is possible the perfect 35mm range finder, it's beautiful and also modern. If you prefer classic brass build and stuff though, you'll always prefer a Leica.

The shutters in Bessas and Ikons is a bit louder/sharper than a Leica. A Bessa is a "clack", a Leica is a "schlock". The Leica in decibels may not be really much quieter, but it's a softer noise and certainly less distracting. None compare to a good leaf shutter, which as you know can be practically inaudible.

If I were you, I'd put together a list of "must have" features, and see where that takes you.

 

[ricardovaste]

Thanks for your advise . I've not heard an Ikon, are you saying it's a similar 'SLR-clack' like the Bessa?

Perhaps I shouldn't get so hung up on the shutter sound, as it's probably unrealistic to get anything even close to a leaf shutter.

My 'must have features' have taken me around in circles! I'll look into the Ikon with more detail, see what I can find. I guess I'd be paying close to £1500 for body + lens with an Ikon, which makes something like a CL/CLE more appealing at a third of that price. I wonder, when I'm looking at that sort of figure whether I should just take another step up and look at something digital.

But anyway, thanks again for your thoughts, I'll ponder over them.

 

[thegman]

Thanks for your advise . I've not heard an Ikon, are you saying it's a similar 'SLR-clack' like the Bessa?

Perhaps I shouldn't get so hung up on the shutter sound, as it's probably unrealistic to get anything even close to a leaf shutter.

My 'must have features' have taken me around in circles! I'll look into the Ikon with more detail, see what I can find. I guess I'd be paying close to £1500 for body + lens with an Ikon, which makes something like a CL/CLE more appealing at a third of that price. I wonder, when I'm looking at that sort of figure whether I should just take another step up and look at something digital.

But anyway, thanks again for your thoughts, I'll ponder over them.

Pretty similar, I've had an Ikon and a Bessa R4A, maybe the Ikon is ever so slightly quieter, but not much.

I'd say you can get an Ikon for quite a bit less than that, I got my body for £550, and a lens for about £300. Depending on your requirements, you can spend less on a lens too. Obviously if you want to buy new, then, yes about £1500.

Or take a real step up and get medium format...

 

[Frontman]

Why not shoot a fully mechanical camera without a meter? You can shoot any speed film you like, and set the exposure in your head. My night-time camera is a Leica M3 with a Canon 50/1.2 lens, and I meter my shots with my eyes and past experience. My daytime camera is a Leica M4 with a 50/2 Summicron, and I shoot it the same way.

I bought a new-to-me Olympus OM3 today, and was out shooting it this afternoon. I shot it the same way I do a Leica rangefinder, by presetting the focus to 5 meters, as well as presetting the shutter speed and aperture for the available light. The OM3ti has a sophistcated meter built in, but I never used it once to set my exposure, I only used it to verify the settings I had picked by eye. The meter agreed to my settings, they were always corrrect.

Most people here will recommend whatever they happen to be shooting. I shoot everything. As I deal in cameras, I have a couple hundred or so of every description. Any camera I pick up is capable of taking a great photo (so long as I am capable of taking a great photo). I recommended the Hexar as it is the quietest film camera I have ever come across, has a stellar lens, and is reasonably priced compared to anything with interchangeable lenses. It can be shot manually or automatically, and is far more capable than most photgraphers who use it.

For what it's worth, I have a Konica Hexar (3 of them) but I seldom shoot with them, as I prefer mechanical cameras.

 

[ColSebastianMoran]

Richard, if you put the nice little Voigtlander VC Meter II on top of a manual exposure CRF, you'll get your package with ISO to 3200. To me, this meter feels just right on top of a Cannon QL17 G-III set for manual exposure.

You could try this with the manual exposure option on your 7s-II clone.

 

[Zopkuni]

To my mind the tiny Seagull 205 / Phenix 205 is the nicest,
and still affordable....
has the best viewinder I have ever seen on a fixed lens rangefinder,
wonderfull lens - Zeiss Jena OEM built-,
camera built quality is also good....never any problems.

I am sure a Leica cant do it much better! (dont laugh the 205 sets some of the standards in its
class)

Here are 205 results of my friend Bob from Tokyo and other Japanse places:
http://www.flickriver.com/groups/442916@N24/pool/interesting/

The 205 is one of the few ultra capable compact fixed lens rangefinders.
Truly a little masterpiece and so overlooked and underrated.

Here you can read more details:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/98922823@N00/5966243049/

During the 60s and 70s China Photo industry imported many of their lenses
from Eastern Germany Carl Zeiss Jena.
Same thing with Seagull 203 folder.
I know that Zeiss delivered the polished pre manufactured glass elements and
some parts of HQ fine mechanics for the older Seagull /
Shanghai 4b and 4a type of TLR, the unique tiny Shanghai / Seagull 203 folder 6x6
and several other 35mm cameras including the 203.
From ca. 1985 China manufactured allmost all parts of their lenses and cameras,
some imports from Japan from Minolta and others...
The older Chinese Cameras from
the Red Flag 20 Mao Era are extremely sharp and well made.
(If you find a good one)

 

[bitfeng]

I used to be a Phenix 205 50/2.8 user. At f/2.8, the center is sharp, but at the edge it has the "swirling" bokeh which I don't like at all. Also the rangefinder needs to be adjusted from time to time - the manual even tells how to adjust it. I stopped using it as soon as I got a QL17GIII.

To my mind the tiny Seagull 205 / Phenix 205 is the nicest,
and still affordable....
has the best viewinder I have ever seen on a fixed lens rangefinder,
wonderfull lens - Zeiss Jena OEM built-,
camera built quality is also good....never any problems.

I am sure a Leica cant do better! (dont laugh the 205 sets some of the standards in its
class)

Here are 205 results of my friend Bob from Tokyo and other Japanse places:
http://www.flickriver.com/groups/442916@N24/pool/interesting/

The 205 is one of the few ultra capable compact fixed lens rangefinders.
Truly a little masterpiece and so overlooked and underrated.

Here you can read more details:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/98922823@N00/5966243049/

During the 60s and 70s China Photo industry imported many of their lenses
from Eastern Germany Carl Zeiss Jena.
Same thing with Seagull 203 folder.
I know that Zeiss delivered the polished pre manufactured glass elements and
some parts of HQ fine mechanics for the older Seagull /
Shanghai 4b and 4a type of TLR, the unique tiny Shanghai / Seagull 203 folder 6x6
and several other 35mm cameras including the 203.
From ca. 1985 China manufactured allmost all parts of their lenses and cameras,
some imports from Japan from Minolta and others...
The older Chinese Cameras from
the Red Flag 20 Mao Era are extremely sharp and well made.
(If you find a good one)

 

[Zopkuni]

Well why taking pictures at f 2,8 I never go under 4 or 5,6...
its razor sharp,
I would say its picture taking beauty is similar to Agfa Solinar 2,8 lens
or other Zeiss tessar type of lenses...
its very good.
A nice affordable and reliable camera and quiet in operation.
You can compare it in picture quality to a Minox 35 etc...

 

[bitfeng]

I agree. But its size is just too big for a 50/2.8. For f/2.8 why not a Oly 35RC, Minox, Rollei 35 etc.
Just digged out one of my Phenix 205 pics taken 9 year ago, with Fuji 100/400 propably. I think it was scanned with Frontier at 2400dpi. Razor sharp but bad bokeh @ f/2.8.

Crop of the original

Well why taking pictures at f 2,8 I never go under 4 or 5,6...
its razor sharp,
I would say its picture taking beauty is similar to Agfa Solinar 2,8 lens
or other Zeiss tessar type of lenses...
its very good.
A nice affordable and reliable camera and quiet in operation.
You can compare it in picture quality to a Minox 35 etc...