Chemicals for internal cleaning

[SandyG]

Having some electrical issues on a Minolta Hi-Matic 'FP'. Looks pretty clean, no corrosion, but something going on electrically as battery is drained in a day or less. I was looking to try some electrical contact cleaner like CRC-QD or WD40 Specalist Contact Cleaner (NOT WD40 OIL) on the PCB, contacts on the PCB (switch) and the anything else that has wires 🙂

CRC QD says harmless to plastics, etc.
WD40 Contact Cleaner "Safe to use on electrical equipment, most plastics*, rubber and metal" where the * says to test on plastics to be sure.

CRC QD electronic cleaner safety datasheet shows the magic ingredients as -
Naphtha (petroleum), hydrotreated light 70 - 80% (Lighter Fluid??)
HFC-152a 75-37-61,1-difluoroethane 20 - 30%

For WD40 Specialist Contract Cleaner (Again NOT WD40 OIL)
Heptane 70-80%
Isoparaffinic Hydrocarbon 64741-66-8 10-20%
2,2,4-Trimethylpentane (component of Isoparaffinic hydrocarbon) 540-84-1 <20%

Anyone know enough about chemistry to say if these are usable or damaging to stuff in the camera?

Sandy

 

[JeffS7444]

It's been years since I've taken a chemistry class, and never studied hydro- or fluorocarbons so I'm just guessing, but I think either one will be fine, and most will evaporate quickly. I'd spray a bit into a container, then apply with a syringe or whatever you've got, rather than spraying the camera directly. Hopefully they won't migrate where they're not wanted, but until you become familiar with them, best to apply sparingly.

At least in the case of Minolta X700, excessive current draw is usually caused by faulty capacitors. While HM-F doesn't use aluminum electrolytics, it incorporates a number of epoxy-dipped tantalums, and those can fail too.

Note that there are at least two major HM-F circuit revisions, one of which uses an LED for the battery test light, and the other uses a small incandescent lamp. Parts layout and values are somewhat different between the two.

 

[SandyG]

It's been years since I've taken a chemistry class, and never studied hydro- or fluorocarbons so I'm just guessing, but I think either one will be fine, and most will evaporate quickly. I'd spray a bit into a container, then apply with a syringe or whatever you've got, rather than spraying the camera directly. Hopefully they won't migrate where they're not wanted, but until you become familiar with them, best to apply sparingly.

At least in the case of Minolta X700, excessive current draw is usually caused by faulty capacitors. While HM-F doesn't use aluminum electrolytics, it incorporates a number of epoxy-dipped tantalums, and those can fail too.

Note that there are at least two major HM-F circuit revisions, one of which uses an LED for the battery test light, and the other uses a small incandescent lamp. Parts layout and values are somewhat different between the two.

Yeah, I have the repair manual and it shows 2 different models of the PCB. I think the components that could be bad should not be in circuit when the camera is not cocked ready for a shot. Sadly no schematics in the repair manual or details on the PCB.

But this fellow did attempt to do one here - HI-Matic F I think one thing might be off on wiring a bit on the power to the switch as it's always on in his schematic, but it's otherwise is really nice and helpful as a starting point. I seem to think in one of the picture in the service manual more then one capacitor.

In doing some 'Internet-ing' Ronson Lighter Fluid seems to be similar to both in looking at the safety data, but I'm not well versed in Carbon molecule chains 😉 Biggest difference might be propellant.

The first thing I did think of was a leaky electrolytic, but I think these do have Tantalum Caps as you say, but I think they may/should only be in circuit IF taking a picture. Hard to say without the real schematic. I think Tantalum caps of this era are also prone to fail or have the bad formula like the electrolytic fails due to stolen chemistry but not sure. I have seen a few threads on this.

I have a 2 'F' models and the 'FP', only the FP is having a problem. I think one has the LED board, the other 2 have the lamp style. Can't remember which now...

More poking around!

Thanks for the input

Sandy

 

[boojum]

Yeah, I have the repair manual and it shows 2 different models of the PCB. I think the components that could be bad should not be in circuit when the camera is not cocked ready for a shot. Sadly no schematics in the repair manual or details on the PCB.

But this fellow did attempt to do one here - HI-Matic F I think one thing might be off on wiring a bit on the power to the switch as it's always on in his schematic, but it's otherwise is really nice and helpful as a starting point. I seem to think in one of the picture in the service manual more then one capacitor.

In doing some 'Internet-ing' Ronson Lighter Fluid seems to be similar to both in looking at the safety data, but I'm not well versed in Carbon molecule chains 😉 Biggest difference might be propellant.

The first thing I did think of was a leaky electrolytic, but I think these do have Tantalum Caps as you say, but I think they may/should only be in circuit IF taking a picture. Hard to say without the real schematic. I think Tantalum caps of this era are also prone to fail or have the bad formula like the electrolytic fails due to stolen chemistry but not sure. I have seen a few threads on this.

I have a 2 'F' models and the 'FP', only the FP is having a problem. I think one has the LED board, the other 2 have the lamp style. Can't remember which now...

More poking around!

Thanks for the input

Sandy

Naptha is a tried and true cleaner. Also known as Coleman fuel and Ronson lighter fluid. I put that forward not from my experience with it but from the experience of the propeller heads here who know.

 

[p.giannakis]

What about electric contact cleaner spray?

 

[JeffS7444]

But this fellow did attempt to do one here - HI-Matic F I think one thing might be off on wiring a bit on the power to the switch as it's always on in his schematic, but it's otherwise is really nice and helpful as a starting point. I seem to think in one of the picture in the service manual more then one capacitor.

Now that you mention it, that does seem peculiar: I always thought that the camera was effectively Off unless the battery test or shutter button was depressed. And as depicted, battery voltage goes directly to the integrated circuit with no reverse-polarity protection.

 

[SandyG]

What about electric contact cleaner spray?

Yes, that's what I'm thinking. Most look like they are similar to Lighter fluid/Naptha. I have Deoxit but they for sure have something to lube so could be good and bad. CRC QD contact cleaner and WD40 Specalist Contact Cleaner are what I'm thinking based on I have some and what seems like it would be ok from the safety sheets.

Worse case, ruin a broken camera 😀

Sandy

 

[SandyG]

Now that you mention it, that does seem peculiar: I always thought that the camera was effectively Off unless the battery test or shutter button was depressed. And as depicted, battery voltage goes directly to the integrated circuit with no reverse-polarity protection.

I have a working F that draws no current, or less then 1ma. Being wound ready for a picture made a difference, but would have to double check current draw... I wrote it down somewhere, but that was a couple of days ago so no idea where the notes are 😀

In looking at the circuit the draw in milliamps is really close to 3v across the 2 battery check resistors. If the switch in that circuit is bad, that aligns well with the current draw.

Sandy

 

[JeffS7444]

I have a working F that draws no current, or less then 1ma. Being wound ready for a picture made a difference, but would have to double check current draw... I wrote it down somewhere, but that was a couple of days ago so no idea where the notes are 😀

In looking at the circuit the draw in milliamps is really close to 3v across the 2 battery check resistors. If the switch in that circuit is bad, that aligns well with the current draw.

Sandy

Just going by memory here, but IIRC, that main shutter release / battery check switch consists of a couple of folded metal parts. If battery electrolyte reached it, or someone misplaced an insulating washer, who knows. If possible, do preserve the original switch, as it's nicely silver plated. But with the worst of my Fs, it was a mass of green gunk with very little intact metal remaining.

I'm not too picky about electrical cleaners as long as there's not so much residue that the part is visibly oily.

 

[SandyG]

Naptha is a tried and true cleaner. Also known as Coleman fuel and Ronson lighter fluid. I put that forward not from my experience with it but from the experience of the propeller heads here who know.

Yeah, used Ronson lighter fluid on a lot of stuff after working on lighter seals, works well and doesn't mess with plastic stuff that I tried it on. I had to order off of Amazon as I don't see it in stores any more except for the small Zippo can that is way too expensive. Ordered some spares just to have it.

Sandy

 

[boojum]

This should be the same and cheaper: Amazon.com : coleman white gas

 

[SandyG]

This should be the same and cheaper: Amazon.com : coleman white gas

I see some folks say it's the same, some different. not a huge deal. I had ordered a couple of 12oz Ronson which should last a long time. Next time will try the gallon of Coleman 🙂

 

[SandyG]

Some experimentation today with Deoxit, WD-40 Contact Cleaner, and Ronson Lighter Fluid.

The Deoxit did leave a residue on the paper that I sprayed it on. Very light.
The WD-40 Specialist Contact Cleaner left nothing
The Ronson Left Nothing

I needed this to see if I could clear out a current draw problem in a Minolta Hi-Matic F. I doused the camera in the circuit board and switch area with first Deoxit, then with WD-40 Contact cleaner.

After drying out, tested for the parasitic electrical draw and it was still there. So no fix, but after tearing the entire camera down, I didn't see anything melted, deformed, or bothered by either of the sprays. I did not douse with Ronson as it seemed like with less control 'squirting' I might get a lot of stuff in the lens. I used enough to cause some loosening of the edges of the pleather trim, but nothing major.

One thing that I did notice was that on the final cleaning with WD-40 Contact Cleaner the winding mechanism got dry and was not working properly. I added a couple of really tiny drops on the area I thought needed it and it came back to life. Clean and oil free is not likely a good thing for the mechanisms, and I don't think I would use Deoxit with 'Lube' on anything that has a lens, mirror etc.

So for a squeaky clean wash the Contact Cleaner seems to work and not harm much except for trim glue, might be just similar to Ronson in a spray can...

Sandy

 

[FOBELIO]

Having some electrical issues on a Minolta Hi-Matic 'FP'. Looks pretty clean, no corrosion, but something going on electrically as battery is drained in a day or less. I was looking to try some electrical contact cleaner like CRC-QD or WD40 Specalist Contact Cleaner (NOT WD40 OIL) on the PCB, contacts on the PCB (switch) and the anything else that has wires 🙂

CRC QD says harmless to plastics, etc.
WD40 Contact Cleaner "Safe to use on electrical equipment, most plastics*, rubber and metal" where the * says to test on plastics to be sure.

CRC QD electronic cleaner safety datasheet shows the magic ingredients as -
Naphtha (petroleum), hydrotreated light 70 - 80% (Lighter Fluid??)
HFC-152a 75-37-61,1-difluoroethane 20 - 30%

For WD40 Specialist Contract Cleaner (Again NOT WD40 OIL)
Heptane 70-80%
Isoparaffinic Hydrocarbon 64741-66-8 10-20%
2,2,4-Trimethylpentane (component of Isoparaffinic hydrocarbon) 540-84-1 <20%

Anyone know enough about chemistry to say if these are usable or damaging to stuff in the camera?

Sandy

I am only a chemistry laboratory technician and not a expert in any way in cleaning electronics or mechanics...

Testing the cleaning agent on a plastic spare part (old PCB or even an unimportant corner) can give you a good indicator how it may behave.
There exist probably many receipts how PCB plastic/composition is made and it changed for sure during the different decades... so testing is the only safe way to be more sure.

Also consider that the cleaning agents you mention contain a very high content of solvents (Naphta, Heptan, Isopartaffinis Hydrocarbon) that act degreasing.
They can clean mechanical parts but some grease is always needed in almost all moving parts... so reapplying grease is then a must.

Other thing to consider is acting time... I mean by that how long the cleaning agent is in contact with the parts...prolonged use can damaged parts.
I once cleaned a Cambo X2-Pro view camera adapter with Isopropanol... one wish wasn't a problem even two or three... but I thought it was still some dirt so I continued until I realised that the dark grey lack paint started to get a away...that was the "dirt".


Other thing that people forget or neglect is safety. This stuff is highly flammable and very unhealthy (don't forget you can expose also your family) and needs very good ventilation (if you don't smell it doesn't mean it is all gone):

• doing in the basement is a bad idea,the fumes are heavier than air so they stay there
• doing in the kitchen is a bad idea, very probable risk of food contamination
• doing in the living room is a bad idea, stuff stay in the room where you are for hours and you (and family) are exposed
• doing in the garage is a better choice, perhaps keep the door open to improve ventilation
• do it outside is the best option after all, wind and dirt can be an issue with all the delicate parts...

 

[JeffS7444]

I mostly use cleaner/lubricants in audio-video applications like rotary switches, where a thin film of lubricant on the sliding surfaces may help to reduce wear. Can be used sparingly in cameras.

Dilute lubricant + solvent (Michio Ozeki suggests 2% or 5%, IIRC) can be just the thing for speed escapements, including self-timer mechanisms. The exact ratio isn't critical.

Older repair guides may refer to carbon tetrachloride as a cleaner, or even leaded automotive fuel as a cleaner/lubricant, but I think I'll leave those for the history books.

Whenever I work with organic solvents (pretty much anything with carbon atoms, IIRC) I assume there's potential to ingest it not only via vapor, but directly through the skin. Ahh, memories of middle school chemistry class, where they had us kids working with benzene and carbon tetrachloride. 😳

 

[FOBELIO]

Older repair guides may refer to carbon tetrachloride as a cleaner, or even leaded automotive fuel as a cleaner/lubricant, but I think I'll leave those for the history books.

many things of the past are not anymore considered save but dangerous or toxic... just remember how asbestos or radium was used or advertised...

Carbon tetrachloride (CCl4) or benzene is today classified to be carcinogenic... this stuff should be only handled by professionals with a lab background and only in a lab! Fortunately most toxic and problematic chemicals in Europe have restricted access. Without proper knowledge and safety precautions I would recommend nobody to handle stuff like this. As a lab technician with chemistry background I wouldn't handle this stuff at home... never.

The only solvents that I use at home are the following, trying to avoid the 3rd and 5th one:

• ethanol (also called ethyl alcohol, grain alcohol, drinking alcohol, or simply alcohol)
• isopropanol (also called Isopropyl alcohol or 2-propanol)
• acetone (also called 2-propanone or dimethyl ketone)
• nail polish remover, which in most cases contains the above chemical plus some Ethyl acetate
• plasters remover, which is some kind of petroleum ether (mixture some hydrocarbons)

 

[Leon C]

So for a squeaky clean wash the Contact Cleaner seems to work and not harm much except for trim glue, might be just similar to Ronson in a spray can...

Hi Sandy, it's not the same, good Contact Cleaner leaves a layer of lubricant, where the Ronson will just evaporate.

For Electrical Contact Cleaning: Here I use Servisol Super 10 [Now known as Kontakt-Chemie] where it: 'removes tarnish, dirt, grease, dust, oil grime and other deposits increasing contact areas and reduces resistance' amongst other things....It also leaves a film of lubricant after evaporating, which needs cleaning off with IPA if you intend to solder.

IPA completely evaporates and is a good general cleaner but will remove certain glues so....

I also use Acetone and White Vinegar for certain cleaning duties, Acetone isn't a friend of plastics so be careful, only used really for breaking sealant on stubborn Lenses with all metal parts, the White Vinegar is great for corrosion and oxidation cleaning but needs to be used in areas where it can be cleaned off with IPA after use as it is acidic.

Warm water and a little detergant is a great cleaner used in the right spaces with a soft brush, especially camera coverings.

Oh! Might as well finish the list....3% Hydrogen Peroxide for Fungus cleaning and Zippo Lighter Fuel for other general cleaning, can remove grease and glue also, as can Lemon Oil.

 

[peterm1]

I tend to use pure naptha (sold in Australia as "Shellite") when I want a volatile cleaner which evaporates quickly leaving no (or at least an undiscernible amount of) residue. I do not believe I have used, or would use it on hard plastics, or for example, substances like the kind of rubberized / exterior covering on many modern cameras as I suspect it would damage them (over time if not initially). For contact cleaning inside cameras it should be good. I do not know that contact cleaner (which in at least one of the instances you quoted contains naptha) would be superior except that it leaves a slight lubricant effect which may not be needed except on parts which move - such as switches. But this could be the issue in your case...see below
I am not familiar with the camera you mention but I note from a quick look at the internet it has auto exposure and electronic shutter. I would be looking very closely at the circuits / wiring serving those components and "switches" such as the shutter button (and on-off button if there is one) which presumably should activate them. If the circuit stays permanently closed (due to dirt or corrosion) or if there is an electrical short it might be expected to drain the battery in the manner you mention. I might also be tempted to start with a can of air and squirt this onto relevant areas / mechanisms to see if this might help dislodge any offending schmutz. I recall for example, that my old Nikon D200 was having problems with a wheel (used to change settings) presumably due to dust ingress during long storage. Air fixed it. A different issue to be sure but I am sure you see the point.

 

[SandyG]

Hi Sandy, it's not the same, good Contact Cleaner leaves a layer of lubricant, where the Ronson will just evaporate.

For Electrical Contact Cleaning: Here I use Servisol Super 10 [Now known as Kontakt-Chemie] where it: 'removes tarnish, dirt, grease, dust, oil grime and other deposits increasing contact areas and reduces resistance' amongst other things....It also leaves a film of lubricant after evaporating, which needs cleaning off with IPA if you intend to solder.

IPA completely evaporates and is a good general cleaner but will remove certain glues so....

I also use Acetone and White Vinegar for certain cleaning duties, Acetone isn't a friend of plastics so be careful, only used really for breaking sealant on stubborn Lenses with all metal parts, the White Vinegar is great for corrosion and oxidation cleaning but needs to be used in areas where it can be cleaned off with IPA after use as it is acidic.

Warm water and a little detergant is a great cleaner used in the right spaces with a soft brush, especially camera coverings.

Oh! Might as well finish the list....3% Hydrogen Peroxide for Fungus cleaning and Zippo Lighter Fuel for other general cleaning, can remove grease and glue also, as can Lemon Oil.

Deoxit and others do have lube, but the CRC-QD and WD-40 Specialist Contact Cleaner left no residue, so these are OK for some stuff. I have a garage full of automotive and other chemicals and try to go lighter then I used to with them. I do miss the 'good stuff' that actually worked. The contact cleaner I have mentioned seems OK on a lot of stuff I tried it on, Kodak Instamatic Camera's, cases, etc. All good. Seems OK on the Minolta as well so it's at least another option. I do like Ronson Lighter Fluid, seems like a good balance. I think the CRC-QD cleaner is just aerosol lighter fluid, but who knows.

Servisol sounds like Deoxit, has lube, etc and actually works well when I have used it.

Sandy

 

[SandyG]

I tend to use pure naptha (sold in Australia as "Shellite") when I want a volatile cleaner which evaporates quickly leaving no (or at least an undiscernible amount of) residue. I do not believe I have used, or would use it on hard plastics, or for example, substances like the kind of rubberized / exterior covering on many modern cameras as I suspect it would damage them (over time if not initially). For contact cleaning inside cameras it should be good. I do not know that contact cleaner (which in at least one of the instances you quoted contains naptha) would be superior except that it leaves a slight lubricant effect which may not be needed except on parts which move - such as switches. But this could be the issue in your case...see below
I am not familiar with the camera you mention but I note from a quick look at the internet it has auto exposure and electronic shutter. I would be looking very closely at the circuits / wiring serving those components and "switches" such as the shutter button (and on-off button if there is one) which presumably should activate them. If the circuit stays permanently closed (due to dirt or corrosion) or if there is an electrical short it might be expected to drain the battery in the manner you mention. I might also be tempted to start with a can of air and squirt this onto relevant areas / mechanisms to see if this might help dislodge any offending schmutz. I recall for example, that my old Nikon D200 was having problems with a wheel (used to change settings) presumably due to dust ingress during long storage. Air fixed it. A different issue to be sure but I am sure you see the point.

Yeah, have the service manual and not too much specific on the schematic, but someone did one that helped. Everything was clean, no bridges, etc. No corrosion at all, wiring all pristine, and nothing at all seen when looking hard with a magnifier. Once I totally broke it down, I looked at all the switches, and all were perfect, and working. I think it had to be a bad component like the IC as that is always powered up, but something internally was not right with it. Super sad, spent a good amount of time on it and never found the magic bullet that caused the problem. It's not an expensive camera, was just so nice and a black body version so tried to save it. The parts did make it to a beat up version so not much wasted... Well will have to see what the roll of film looks like once I get it back 🙂

Thanks for ideas, very much aprcieated (everyone!)

Sandy