Choosing between Pixii vs used M10

[gozala]

Hi all,

I have read through / watched various Pixii reviews as I am looking to purchase a digital rangefinder (preferably) without a screen, bells or whistles. I think Pixii might be a good fit, yet I have some reservations and would love to ask questions as some members here seem to have first hand experience with subject cameras.

Before I proceed with my questions I’d like to provide some context. I got Leica M8 for my partner back when it first came out, and I have fell in love with the experience of shooting with it. After many years it does feels dated, noise is pretty bad outside base ISO, which limits to a daylight shooting only. At some point I have decided to “upgrade” to more modern and budget friendly Fujifilm x-pro 3, which also appealed due to its concealed screen. Unfortunately supposedly optical viewfinder still requires you to focus on a tiny LCD patch in the bottom corner of the OVF, which is very different experience from M8. It’s cool to be able to magnify the focus area, especially in challenging scenes, yet I find myself longing for M8 and resenting myriad of features on Fuji which somehow hinder experience even if I don’t use them.

I basically have decided to justify spending a fortune on M11-D, but it’s not out yet (maybe it never will). At the same time I can not justify almost the price of M11 on used M10-D. So basically I’m trying to find a compromise that would provide an experience I’m looking for roughly in the Pixii price range in a hope that either I’ll love it and eventually there will be an upgrade to full frame sensor or that I’ll be able to sell it and upgrade to M11-D when (and if) it it is released. In other words I’m trying to choose between Pixii, M10 (which unfortunately has a screen, but maybe I’ll train myself to ignore it) or get by with M8 + Fuji. Input from Pixii owners on the following questions could really help me make up my mind:

1. How does the shutter release button feel ? I am asking because I find it shooting with electronic shutter on x-pro 3 dissatisfying as it lacks haptic feedback and feels like shooting with a toy camera (even my iphone provides haptic feedback when I take a photo). I was wondering if shooting with Pixii has any haptic feedback and if it does not, whether that is something you've missing but got used to, or whether it never even bothered you ? (If Pixii were to offer upgrade to mechanical shutter or even simulation of having one I would be sold despite few other concerns I have).

2. How does image quality compare to M10 which as I understand some owners of Pixii here have ? Pixii seems to claim with plausable evidence to outperform M10, yet I am not sure if the difference is really there and to a Pixii’s advantage in real life usage. I've seen review mentioning that grain with Pixii is not as pleasant as with M10-P (PIXII Digital Rangefinder Camera - For New Generations - Tahusa), which makes me think it may not perform as well as M10 in low light settings. If you are in a position to compare image quality to Fujifilm x-pro 3 that would be also extremely helpful as it would provide me a pointe of reference.

3. Several reviews mention challenges with focusing patch. I am wondering if the challenges are due to difference in OVF magnification 0.67x vs 0.72x (in which case it may not bother me as much given that M8 has 0.68x) or whether patch is more dim in comparison to Leica.

4. If you have used both M10 and Pixii and had to choose one of the two which one would you pick and why ? Ultimately that is the choice I am trying to make and I suspect rational shared here might be prove applicable and relevant.

Thanks

 

[boojum]

There is a lot of info here in the FB group: Log into Facebook

The RF patch can be troublesome. There is a new RF for the camera available as an upgrade or, I am sure, on a new one. The shutter button is electronic not mechanical so it has a soft feel. The built-in shutter sound is wimpy.; OTOH it makes nice pictures. What are your priorities? Here's a few from a folder I have from the newest iteration, the A2572: Pixii A2572

Added later. The camera reminds me of the dpgs I had for 30 years, Schipperkes. Schipperke is Belgian for "bad dog." OK, that's a joke, it means "little shepherd" They were bred down from a large shepherd breed. They are endearing but can be independent minded. Like the camera, they come in black. They are great dogs. The camera is a great camera.

This tonight into the light CV 35mm f/1.4 Nokton II, f/4.0: Flickr link"

 

[maddoc]

I can only give opinion from a comparison between XPro-3, that I have, and the M10-Monochrome and M10-R, that I borrowed from a friend for some extended time. When using film, I usually use a black Leica M4 or screwmount Leica. Compared to the Leica M4, the M10 gives the real rangefinder experience different from the XPro-3. The difference for me is the location of the focusing patch, center of the VF vs lower right edge. For me it doesn't make a big difference, I can manually focus both types of camera almost the same way. However, the XPro-3 has adjustable diopter, very important for me, the Leica cameras lack that feature. The menu of the XPro-3 is much easier to navigate, switching between features is easy. Biggest issues with the digital Leica are their price tags and missing weather resistance. In summary, the exorbitant high price of the digital Leica in combination with their lack of features compared to the Fuji XPro-3 more than compensates for the missing true rangefinder experience, that is no digital Leica M for me.

 

[gozala]

Thanks boojum for the response.

> There is a lot of info here in the FB group: Log into Facebook

I'm not on facebook and unable to see the discussion without creating an account ☹️

> The RF patch can be troublesome.

In which way ? Is it too small to dim or something else ? I have seen mixed reviews some seem to mention the size which I think related to difference in OVF magnification that is related to the crop factor.

If it is the size I'll probably won't notice difference given that my source of reference is M8 which has 0.68 that is almost the same as on Pixii. But if it something else, it's bit more concerning.

> There is a new RF for the camera available as an upgrade or, I am sure, on a new one.

Indeed, ones sold now comes with updated RF, which has extended length to make more space for larger lens. They also mention improved precision. However I don't think that would affect the size of the patch or brightness of it.

That is why I'm trying to understand what are the troubles ppl seem to have with it and whether new RF would address those.


> The shutter button is electronic not mechanical so it has a soft feel. The built-in shutter sound is wimpy

I've watched this review that demonstrates actuation sounds. Yet it's does not really convey the feel of it, as I'm mentioned I really dislike using x-pro 3 with electronic shutter because sound effects sound irritating (to me) and with sound effect off it lacks feedback and feels like kids toy camera. If that how Pixii will feel, I'll probably have more joy with M10 than Pixii. If there is some haptic feedback I'll probably get by. It also could be that having mechanical shutter option on Fuji just makes me dislike the electronic shutter in comparison, that is to say maybe I'm making unnecessarily big deal out of it.

> What are your priorities?

Rangefinder shooting experience I have with M8 with image quality I get out of Fujifilim x-pro 3. No screen is a huge plus, but not as important as shooting experience or image quality.

> Here's a few from a folder I have from the newest iteration, the A2572: Pixii A2572

Thanks for sharing. From what I've seen I think it's fare to assume that I'll get x-pro 3 comparable image quality out of Pixii. I'll also get no screen, what I'm not sure is:

1. Whether I get the shooting experience I'm looking for (how much worse the rangefinder on Pixii vs Leica m8, is actuation going to give satisfying feedback or will it will feel disappointing as Electronic shutter actuation on x-pro 3).
2. How does image quality compares to M10 ? (I can assume I'll get same shooting experience with m10 as I have with m8, but I'm not sure if I'll get comparable image quality to x-pro 3 or would it still disappoint in low light settings producing lot of unpleasant grain)


With the understanding of the above I think I'll be able to make informed decision about what would be a better fit for me.

P.S.: I wish it was possible to try out Pixii as that would make this straight forward, but I'm having hard time justifying 10% restocking + shipping fees for this.

 

[gozala]

I can only give opinion from a comparison between XPro-3, that I have, and the M10-Monochrome and M10-R, that I borrowed from a friend for some extended time. When using film, I usually use a black Leica M4 or screwmount Leica. Compared to the Leica M4, the M10 gives the real rangefinder experience different from the XPro-3. The difference for me is the location of the focusing patch, center of the VF vs lower right edge. For me it doesn't make a big difference, I can manually focus both types of camera almost the same way. However, the XPro-3 has adjustable diopter, very important for me, the Leica cameras lack that feature. The menu of the XPro-3 is much easier to navigate, switching between features is easy. Biggest issues with the digital Leica are their price tags and missing weather resistance. In summary, the exorbitant high price of the digital Leica in combination with their lack of features compared to the Fuji XPro-3 more than compensates for the missing true rangefinder experience, that is no digital Leica M for me.

Thanks for sharing. I do agree that x-pro 3 is really good camera and by now I'm used to focusing patch in bottom right edge, yet I find myself enjoying shooting with M8 more. It's just little things about xpro-3 that annoy me e.g. changing photometry overlays OVF, but changing shutter type activates EVF. Sometimes ERF patch has a lag although half press on shutter release button fixes it. I also feel that xpro-3 just has too many features and options that I'd rather not have. E.g. it is nice to be able zoom in with ERF patch for better precision and it's just a dial click away. On the other hand I don't have such feature on M8, it means sometimes I may not get the challenging subject exactly in focus, yet I'd rather miss some shots than obsess with getting them right, which I can't seem to stop doing with xpro-3.

I am also surprised you find it easier to navigate xpro-3 menu, I personally find it overwhelming at least in comparison to M8 which does not have much and only time I use it is if I want to switch between b&w mode and color. This is also why I'd rather have no screen at all, three dials are good enough for me.

I do wish digital Leicas were cheaper too, but then again I had M8 for 15+ years, have shot in pretty some nasty weather, yet it looks and works as it did back when I got it. If I could just upgrade the sensor like with Pixii, I'd never looked for xpro-3 or any other camera (which is also why Pixii is intriguing)

 

[maddoc]

I am also surprised you find it easier to navigate xpro-3 menu, I personally find it overwhelming at least in comparison to M8 which does not have much and only time I use it is if I want to switch between b&w mode and color. This is also why I'd rather have no screen at all, three dials are good enough for me.

I use the Q menu and My menu functions almost exclusively. This makes it very easy for me to operate the camera together with the quick change between PSAM modes by the corresponding dials.

 

[boojum]

Re digital Leicas, they cost. You get the money back when you sell if you buy used. So, in effect, you place a deposit on the camera and get it back when you are done.

If shutter feel is that important buy a Leica. If you are unwilling to open an account on FB to do the research I wonder just how motivated you are to do the work. There is a group on Flickr if that does not fatigue you. Pixii et New Pixii

 

[nightlight]

Watching this thread as I am in the same boat.

I've been trying to get Pixii's attention on delivery lead times/logistics for a trial (even if I had to travel to their premises). The shutter 'haptic' dimension is a certain consideration for me. Not been successful in getting a response, they're perhaps quite busy. The quality of the images on Flickr and here has convinced me; and I am not daunted by potential quirks, it feels good to support a smaller emerging player. But the actual photo-taking experience... I'd like to try before I buy.

 

[boojum]

Watching this thread as I am in the same boat.

I've been trying to get Pixii's attention on delivery lead times/logistics for a trial (even if I had to travel to their premises). The shutter 'haptic' dimension is a certain consideration for me. Not been successful in getting a response, they're perhaps quite busy. The quality of the images on Flickr and here has convinced me; and I am not daunted by potential quirks, it feels good to support a smaller emerging player. But the actual photo-taking experience... I'd like to try before I buy.

This is all between you and Pixii. It is quirky but it offers what other cameras do not, like RAW Mono (B&W) and RAW Bayer (Color) in the same camera. The image quality is excellent and as tested by a French company better than most Leicas despite being APSC. There is some very good engineering in this camera. And it has some glitches. This is a small company. It is struggling to put out a great camera that a lot of folks will buy. They got the first part. They are working on the second part.

My biased appraisal is there may be a prejudice about French engineering despite some great work, like their rockets, airplanes, cars, the Eiffel Tower and food. If you think that cheese, wine, cuisine and bread are accidental, you are way off base. But we have this prejudice that they all have pencil mustaches, wear berets and artists smocks. Even the women. It is not true.

The camera is electronic other than the rangefinder which is mechanical. It had internal memory before Hasselblad did. I thought the electronic shutter was global but it seems it is rolling. But I am not sure. If it were global they would be talking about it and they are not. In summation it is a very good camera and can use any Leica mount lenses, bayonet or screw mount with adapter. That's access to a lot of lenses.

I like mine. I like the color and IQ. And that is compared to some pretty good cameras. The choice is yours. Have fun.

 

[nightlight]

No such prejudice here 🙂 But I've distracted this thread from the original poster's points, sorry about that - I'll watch the replies with attention.

 

[boojum]

No such prejudice here 🙂 But I've distracted this thread from the original poster's points, sorry about that - I'll watch the replies with attention.

Go to the Pixii webpage for full info. The FB group is quite supportive and knowledgeable. There are some videos on YT that are helpful. Most, not all, folks who have used the Pixii like it.

 

[justins7]

I would think that the crop factor with the Pixii and Fuji compared to M10 would be the major factor in deciding. Having a full-frame camera so the sensor matches the lens correctly (so, for example, a 50 is a 50) is a huge plus, although I know some people don't mind this.

Also, are you really sure you don't want a screen? I thought I didn't want one either when I went from M3 to M9, but it's turned out to be critical for me. I use it to check light levels, check focus, etc. and it's such a boon for quickly testing vintage lenses and lighting conditions. And it's easy enough to ignore the screen by disabling auto review.

My M9, and presumable an M10 even more so, feel like true mechanical M rangefinders (even if they are actually electronic). The Pixii and Fuji on the other hand probably feel more digital and electronic (though I haven't used them). So they are very distinct.

I would get an M10 in a heartbeat over the others, but that's just my take.

 

[gozala]

Watching this thread as I am in the same boat.

I've been trying to get Pixii's attention on delivery lead times/logistics for a trial (even if I had to travel to their premises). The shutter 'haptic' dimension is a certain consideration for me. Not been successful in getting a response, they're perhaps quite busy. The quality of the images on Flickr and here has convinced me; and I am not daunted by potential quirks, it feels good to support a smaller emerging player. But the actual photo-taking experience... I'd like to try before I buy.

If that helps I have exchanged couple of emails with David (I assume their CEO 🤯) who has been very respectful and honest about the fact that if I'm looking for mechanical shutter actuation I'd be disappointed "At least in the foreseeable future" (I was trying to inquire if such an upgrade could be in the pipeline).

I'm not sure I understand what do you mean by dimension ? Do you mean sensor size or a camera body size ? If the sensor size I did try to find out if FF sensor upgrade viable in the future. On that he politely said they can't share future plans but did correctly pointed out that they have provided upgrade path for the in the last 3 years.

In fact David also the one who suggested I join this form if I'd like to get feedback from current Pixii users

 

[gozala]

Re digital Leicas, they cost. You get the money back when you sell if you buy used. So, in effect, you place a deposit on the camera and get it back when you are done.

If shutter feel is that important buy a Leica. If you are unwilling to open an account on FB to do the research I wonder just how motivated you are to do the work. There is a group on Flickr if that does not fatigue you. Pixii et New Pixii

I am motivated enough to join this group, to inquire from people on Reddit and contact people who have written Pixii reviews with questions. I do have some principals concerning Facebook however (that I don't wont to get into) that I'm unwilling to compromise despite wanting to know more about Pixii.

 

[gozala]

Also no prejudice here, if anything I'm impartial given that I lived and made many friend in France. I do hope Pixii will succeed regardless whether I decide it's a right fit for me or not.

 

[gozala]

I would think that the crop factor with the Pixii and Fuji compared to M10 would be the major factor in deciding. Having a full-frame camera so the sensor matches the lens correctly (so, for example, a 50 is a 50) is a huge plus, although I know some people don't mind this.

It is a drawback and consideration for sure, but not a critical for me. I also kind of presume that FF sensor upgrade is inevitable if Pixii here to stay. In fact that is one of the major +1 on the Pixii side for me. I suspect that I might get what I'm looking for in M11-D cheaper and probably sooner with Pixii.

Also, are you really sure you don't want a screen? I thought I didn't want one either when I went from M3 to M9, but it's turned out to be critical for me. I use it to check light levels, check focus, etc. and it's such a boon for quickly testing vintage lenses and lighting conditions.

I'd say I'm 80% confident I'd be happier without screen. I do expect there will be instances where I'll miss having one, just like I'm sure there will be instances where I'll miss focus zooming from x-pro 3, yet I suspect I'll have more joy shooting with such a camera than if I have ways to obsess with the details.

Also don't both Leica and Pixii provide that functionality through phone app (I think for Leica it's from M10). So it should be still possible to do that if I really wanted to.

If I'm honest I really like what x-pro 3 does there. Flipping screen is inconvenient enough that I basically only do it when I really need it. In comparison on M8 I catch myself reviewing photos even if I try to control it. I guess it also does not help that there is no way to change ISO without a screen on M8.

And it's easy enough to ignore the screen by disabling auto review.

Yeah I always have it disabled, still it's there to tempt me.

My M9, and presumable an M10 even more so, feel like true mechanical M rangefinders (even if they are actually electronic). The Pixii and Fuji on the other hand probably feel more digital and electronic (though I haven't used them). So they are very distinct.

I would get an M10 in a heartbeat over the others, but that's just my take.

Thanks for raising good points. Thing that makes this choice difficult to me is that I actually like Fuji and I would not be looking for other camera if it had a real optical viewfinder (even non rangefinder one). I do wish Fuji had fewer settings, but I can easily ignore it as I can adjust pretty much everything with dials.

Pixii feels like it offers almost exactly what I wish Fuji gave me. Real OVF and less clutter in the menu. Unfortunately it takes away satisfying haptic feedback on actuation (or at least that is an impression I have). And it is really hard for me to tell if it will continuously bother me just like fake OVF on Fuji or if it is something I'll get used to and not really care about. I think it really depends on how pressing that button feels. I tried to answer this by using Fuji with Electronic shutter mode only and see if I can get used to it. On fuji it is really dissatisfying, feels like I have half pressed release button instead of pressing it all they way down and sound effect is so bad I had to disable it. It may feel different on Pixii, I think it depends on the button, if there is some feedback from the button that press occured I'd probably get used to it and be happy with Pixii, but if it feels same as on Fuji I'll probably find myself picking up M8 more often just like I find myself doing with Fuji.

I think M10 is a safer choice but Pixii is more exciting one. I was hoping existing Pixii users had some experiences in that regard I could relate to helping me to make my mind about this.

 

[boojum]

There is no perfect camera. None have everything one wants.

As for the APSC business with lenses, OK, your 35mm becomes a near 50. That 28 is a near 35. There are your two 35mm camera lenses which do most of the heavy lifting, 35 and 50. If you are pinching pennies there is an abundance of good used 28's and 35's out there. I know this because I have some. A very nice Canon 28mm f/2.8 has great color, is very sharp without making your eyes bleed and does mono like a champ. Edge astigmatism is eliminated because those edges are out the sensor FOV. I have some nice used 35's, a recent one being a very nice old CV f/1.7 which is softer than the usual CV. This is an apples and oranges but here it is on an M-9: M9 + CV 35mm Ultron I regard the APSC as a non issue for the most part. At high ISO, like up near 25600 you'll see grain which does not translate well. Avoid high ISO's. I know of very few cameras which can handle high ISO's with grace. Those which can cost real money.

Rear view panel for chimping? Maybe a loss not having one. The phone app will fill in there if you need it. Or pretend that you have gone to film that can be processed at once when you get home. The camera is different from all the others.

So no great shutter click, no view panel on the back and APSC. The images are very good in color and IQ so learn to live with the funny shutter button if you want the Pixii.

David Barth is the honcho. I do not know him and have had only the briefest contact when he hooked up to my camera from France and fixed a bug in it. He seemed pretty nice then. ;o)

I like the camera. It is a good camera, it does good images, has the magic of RAW mono and Bayer native and is upgradeable. I sent mine back for the A1571 to A2572 upgrade and am in line for the new rangefinder upgrade. Rather than having to trade in an old camera to buy a new one the current one can be upgraded. That's a bonus.

Fair warning, I like the camera despite its occasional quirks and am an unabashed Francophile. If you decide for one I do hope it makes you as happy as mine has made me.

 

[boojum]

<snip>

My M9, and presumable an M10 even more so, feel like true mechanical M rangefinders (even if they are actually electronic). The Pixii and Fuji on the other hand probably feel more digital and electronic (though I haven't used them). So they are very distinct.

<snip>

The Pixii rangefinder is mechanical. How do rangefinders "feel"?

 

[raid]

I have been using the M8, M9, and then M10. I like the M10 a lot. It is what I need for what I do in photography.
I enjoy the act of photography. I don't feel that I need a different camera now. I have no experience with the Pixii RF.

 

[justins7]

How do rangefinders "feel"?

They feel good.