simplethings
Established
Hey everyone,
This is probably a continuation of my "Humbled by an M4" post, but the topic is a bit different so I decided to create a new thread. I have 2 days left until my friend (the owner of the M4) comes back from his trip to decide whether or not I want to trade in my 5D for the RF. I know it all depends on "what you like", but I'm having trouble choosing between the practicality of one tool and the desire for another.
I have about 10 years of experience with SLR cameras, so the 5D is definitely something that I understand. The RF is another story. But, there is one particular image that has stuck me so hard I can't just let the M4 go. It's a photo of my son staring out the sliding window... I have literally thousands of photographs of him and there are only a handful that really stick out in my mind. This one sticks out because it has a certain quality that I never saw in my digital prints.
When I have that 5D around my neck I feel invincible in a way. I shoot like there's no tomorrow and I seem to feel like I just have an over abundance of "trash" photos. Anyhow, I'm torn. Film is quite expensive to develop here in Hawaii and I don't have easy access to a darkroom.
So here's the overall breakdown. 5D is very practical and I have learned to use SLRs, the RF appeals more to my creative and artistic side (but it is not so practical). Anyone have any suggestions? I don't necessarily need to have this Leica. The glass probably had more to do with the overall outcome of the photo, right? In that case I can always just get a Bessa and a Zeiss Biogon with extra money for film and developing.
I'd love to hear from anyone.
Best,
Diana
This is probably a continuation of my "Humbled by an M4" post, but the topic is a bit different so I decided to create a new thread. I have 2 days left until my friend (the owner of the M4) comes back from his trip to decide whether or not I want to trade in my 5D for the RF. I know it all depends on "what you like", but I'm having trouble choosing between the practicality of one tool and the desire for another.
I have about 10 years of experience with SLR cameras, so the 5D is definitely something that I understand. The RF is another story. But, there is one particular image that has stuck me so hard I can't just let the M4 go. It's a photo of my son staring out the sliding window... I have literally thousands of photographs of him and there are only a handful that really stick out in my mind. This one sticks out because it has a certain quality that I never saw in my digital prints.
When I have that 5D around my neck I feel invincible in a way. I shoot like there's no tomorrow and I seem to feel like I just have an over abundance of "trash" photos. Anyhow, I'm torn. Film is quite expensive to develop here in Hawaii and I don't have easy access to a darkroom.
So here's the overall breakdown. 5D is very practical and I have learned to use SLRs, the RF appeals more to my creative and artistic side (but it is not so practical). Anyone have any suggestions? I don't necessarily need to have this Leica. The glass probably had more to do with the overall outcome of the photo, right? In that case I can always just get a Bessa and a Zeiss Biogon with extra money for film and developing.
I'd love to hear from anyone.
Best,
Diana
photophorous
Registered User
A Leica will hold it's value much better than any DSLR, so you don't have much to loose if you try it.
Here's what I'm thinking....you could get a lot more money for that 5D now than you'll be able to in a couple of years. And, if you buy an M camera, it will be worth almost just as much in couple of years. You could sell the 5D now, buy an M, give it a little time and if you don't like it, sell it for practically what you paid for it, and buy the new version of the 5D.
I didn't sell my D70s when I bought my Bessa R2A, because I couldn't really get that much for it anyway. But after using the Bessa for a while, I'm certain I won't be upgrading my DSLR until there have been some big improvements in digital camera technology. Just my opinion, of course.
Paul
Here's what I'm thinking....you could get a lot more money for that 5D now than you'll be able to in a couple of years. And, if you buy an M camera, it will be worth almost just as much in couple of years. You could sell the 5D now, buy an M, give it a little time and if you don't like it, sell it for practically what you paid for it, and buy the new version of the 5D.
I didn't sell my D70s when I bought my Bessa R2A, because I couldn't really get that much for it anyway. But after using the Bessa for a while, I'm certain I won't be upgrading my DSLR until there have been some big improvements in digital camera technology. Just my opinion, of course.
Paul
Anupam
Well-known
Isn't the Canon 5d worth much more right now than an M4? If so, it might not be a fair exchange for you. Also, they are apples and oranges. IMO, you need both. I'd keep the 5D and get a Bessa if I couldn't afford an M or save up a bit, and get an M.
-A
-A
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Diana,simplethings said:
Impossible to say, but my own experience is that I take the best pictures with the cameras I like most -- which keeps coming back to Leica for me.
Having said that, I've taken pictures I'm very pleased with when using Voigtlanders and ZIs too, so maybe it's just that I take the best pictures with the cameras I actually use.
And RFs are very different from SLRs.
Cheers,
Roger
fishtek
Don
Keep the Canon. Save your money and buy a Leica (or just look around for a cheaper RF). In my mind, they're two different sorts of tools. Maybe like the difference between a high-tech kinetic chronograph wrist watch and a fine mechanical pocket watch. They'll do pretty much the same thing, eventually, but in a different fashion, from different perspectives.
I've got 30D with a bag of lenses, and also rangefinders. I've found a whole new respect for fixed-lens rangefinders, and don't feel any sort of contention about using either instead of the other.
Tough call, but I don't think you ought to dump your DSLR.
Jm2C...
Don
I've got 30D with a bag of lenses, and also rangefinders. I've found a whole new respect for fixed-lens rangefinders, and don't feel any sort of contention about using either instead of the other.
Tough call, but I don't think you ought to dump your DSLR.
Jm2C...
Don
simplethings
Established
The trade is: 5D for Leica M4 and Zeiss Biogon 28 2.8. I have possible buyers for my 5D at $1750. Is it an equal trade?
simplethings
Established
It's not practical for me because I have a 15 month old son and am expecting a second in 6 months... which means if I want to share any of these photos with family and friends I'd have to get a scanner and spend time scanning, etc. Also, living in Hawaii limits me in some ways because it costs about $7 to get a roll of film developed and printed and I haven't found any darkrooms that are open in my area.
Now, I DO have a point and shoot for this type of scenario -- and I have to say that when I'm shooting with an RF I'm not really thinking about shooting it for family viewing, just personal stuff. Also, I didn't have to read that manual much for the DSLR -- grew up using SLR's so it was second nature for me. I just put it to manual mode anyway.
Your point about the prices climbing is DEFINITELY something I didn't consider. Thanks for that!
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Anupam
Well-known
toyotadesigner said:
I don't think that is an issue at all - I adapted to a D70 within a few minutes when I used it. If I could have only one camera to do all my photography it would have to be an SLR because of the versatality. An RF is great for some things but can't do other things. That's why I suggested both cameras.
It's not a film vs. digital issue for me.
-A
PS: I don't really think that film Leica gear prices will actually climb significantly in the near future, although they definitely won't fall like any DSLR.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
You might miss the versatility of a DSLR and the best scenario would be to have both a DSLR and the M4. Of course you have the P&S digi and if that would do for the versatility that you need then you could trade the DSLR off on the M4. A third course of action would be to hold onto what you have and get a fixed lens RF to see if you will like a RF and if it would give you something substantial that you cannot achieve with a DSLR. You could then save up for an interchangeable lens RF later on. I can't help with the choice that you have to make but it does sound like you are really not sure about a RF so maybe the last alternative is the one to consider.
Bob
Bob
wgerrard
Veteran
Decisions, decisions. I have no answers.
Roger is right, I think, that you will take better pictures with a camera you like. This analogy is stretching it, I know, but baseball players have favorite gloves and bats. You're in Hawaii. Don't surfers have favorite boards?
You say you take a lot of "trash" photos with the Canon, presumably because they are freebies with digital. If you could apply the discipline to avoid these with the Canon, then you'd be in a better position to decide between Canon and Leica.
Do some math. How many digital shots did you take last year? Even if you dump the "trash", how much would it cost you if you shot the same number with a film camera? Are you willing to cover that cost, or would the fear of spending money inhibit you?
Do you enjoy the freedom digital gives you to shoot with abandon without worrying about cost?
Or, does your relationship with your camera take precedence?
Roger is right, I think, that you will take better pictures with a camera you like. This analogy is stretching it, I know, but baseball players have favorite gloves and bats. You're in Hawaii. Don't surfers have favorite boards?
You say you take a lot of "trash" photos with the Canon, presumably because they are freebies with digital. If you could apply the discipline to avoid these with the Canon, then you'd be in a better position to decide between Canon and Leica.
Do some math. How many digital shots did you take last year? Even if you dump the "trash", how much would it cost you if you shot the same number with a film camera? Are you willing to cover that cost, or would the fear of spending money inhibit you?
Do you enjoy the freedom digital gives you to shoot with abandon without worrying about cost?
Or, does your relationship with your camera take precedence?
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Another thing to possibly throw into the mix here is the intended long term use of the images you are making. I really enjoy the pictures my grandmother made, and seeing the slides my Dad made back when I was a kid. I have reservations about the longevity of digital images even with the best of backup schedules and discipline. I'm shooting film of my kids.
simplethings
Established
Sort of... boards for different occasions if you can afford it I guess. Small days would be easier with a longboard, but most people either like shortboards, longboards, or mini-tankers... then there are those who prefer "sponging" instead (bodyboarding or "boogieboarding"). Lol... that's a whole other topic! I like bodyboarding over surfing! But that's probably because I'm better at it and I charge bigger waves on a bodyboard.
simplethings
Established
Oy... too many. I went back into my son's photo album(s) and noticed that I shot quite a bit of film and digital. A lot of the digital photos were actually from the P&S (go figure). It was easier to carry my SD450 around as opposed to the 5D. The only time I really used the 5D was for a paid wedding gig with a friend and working as a staffer at my university. I was planning on an internship here, but I'll be expecting right in the beginning of the internship -- so I guess that 5D wouldn't have had much use anyhow.
What I really wish for is access to a darkroom so I can have more control over my b&w photography. I don't have a door on my bathroom and our little apartment is only 500 sq. feet, so forget about that! :-( I'll figure it out.. thanks to EVERYONE for putting in their 2 cents. It's giving me a lot to think about.
Best,
Diana
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Diana, on a dark night a curtain over the door will suffice for plenty of darkness- I live in the woods and print with the window open in the summer if there is no moon.
Give yourself a few days to think it over, don't pick up either of them, then give each a little workout. You may know in an instant.
Give yourself a few days to think it over, don't pick up either of them, then give each a little workout. You may know in an instant.
wgerrard
Veteran
simplethings said:
Hmmm. An RF is almost as easy to carry as a P&S. Stuff a couple of (well-protected) lenses in one of the baby bags and you're good to go.
Film costs: That $7.00 rate may not be that high. I'm in North Carolina and the going rate is $8-$10 for a 36-exp. roll of mounted slides. Drug stores charge around $10 for a 24-exp roll of C41 prints. Whatever the price, though, film costs add up. You can shoot 360 digital shot with no outlay of cash. What would 360 film shots cost you?
Darkroom: If you're not doing prints, just scanning negatives/slides, you might be able to cram everything into your apartment. 'Course, you'd need to find enough free time away from your kids.
I don't have kids, but I wonder if you ought to ask your doctor about using darkroom chemicals around the baby.lns
Established
Hi Diana. When my kids were young, I used a simple point and shoot film camera with autofocus, zoom and built-in flash. I really think with young kids there's nothing better than autofocus and flash, for those wiggly toddler, birthday party, first-step, Christmas-morning type pictures. Also, I'm not sure a 28mm lens is ideal for family pictures, especially with tiny kids.
Since your extended family isn't local, and you need to email or post pictures, I think you might be sorry if you don't have a digital solution. Does it make sense to trade down the Canon 5D for a point and shoot digital (surely there must be one that's better than mine) or a Rebel XTi or another small DSLR? They're smaller and easier to throw in the diaper bag. Then you could also get a Bessa or Zeiss Ikon or used Leica, with one lens, and enjoy both worlds. You can use C-41 black and white film or color film, and drop it off at the one-hour lab, until the kids are bigger and you have more time to develop it yourself.
Since your extended family isn't local, and you need to email or post pictures, I think you might be sorry if you don't have a digital solution. Does it make sense to trade down the Canon 5D for a point and shoot digital (surely there must be one that's better than mine) or a Rebel XTi or another small DSLR? They're smaller and easier to throw in the diaper bag. Then you could also get a Bessa or Zeiss Ikon or used Leica, with one lens, and enjoy both worlds. You can use C-41 black and white film or color film, and drop it off at the one-hour lab, until the kids are bigger and you have more time to develop it yourself.
John Rountree
Nothing is what I want
Diana, First, by using C-41 black and white film (Ilford XP-2) you can simply have the film developed without prints for a very small fee. (about $2.00 on the continent) Once you have the film, you can scan the film and print with your home printer, just like you do with your 5D. Now, finding a printer that does a good job on black and white my be the real challenge. But another point to be taken into consideration if you are still not sure, is the point made by others. The 5D will continue to lose value in the used market whereas the Leica won't. If you get the Leica and later decide the Leica is not for you, there will probably be an even "better" digital camera for you to buy. I understand that sensor chips are going through some radical changes that holds great promise for the future. Finally, if you want photographs of your children that will last forever, remember that digital files can (and will) corrupt for no apparent reason. You can always rescan your film if something happens to the file. I hope you will let us know what your final decision is.
simplethings
Established
Hey everyone,
Just thought I'd follow up with my decision. I decided that this M4 was not for me... I couldn't justify having a light meter in one hand with an M4 when I could have it all together in one. I am, however, still selling my 5D. I just feel that it's time for a change or shift in my life.
I'm not sure what I will get at this point... I have an Olympus XA in the closet that I can continue using and a P&S (Canon G9) that is keeping me going. I'd love to buy a Leica but can't seem to get the focusing down.
Oddly, the person I borrowed it from said that the shutter was broken and the lens is loose. Apparently he's trying to blame it on me and I find that to be impossible considering I only put 2 rolls in it (1 of which I just got developed last night and did not see any "blown out" shots like he said I'd have). Anyhow, at this point I'm wondering if he just gave me a dud. Kind of weird that he only had it a week and wanted to get rid of it already.
If anyone can give me hints on things to look for when I'm buying a Leica (online or not) that would be great!
Just thought I'd follow up with my decision. I decided that this M4 was not for me... I couldn't justify having a light meter in one hand with an M4 when I could have it all together in one. I am, however, still selling my 5D. I just feel that it's time for a change or shift in my life.
I'm not sure what I will get at this point... I have an Olympus XA in the closet that I can continue using and a P&S (Canon G9) that is keeping me going. I'd love to buy a Leica but can't seem to get the focusing down.
Oddly, the person I borrowed it from said that the shutter was broken and the lens is loose. Apparently he's trying to blame it on me and I find that to be impossible considering I only put 2 rolls in it (1 of which I just got developed last night and did not see any "blown out" shots like he said I'd have). Anyhow, at this point I'm wondering if he just gave me a dud. Kind of weird that he only had it a week and wanted to get rid of it already.
If anyone can give me hints on things to look for when I'm buying a Leica (online or not) that would be great!