classic 120 folder: build quality

[jett]

I'm considering a folder.

I understand that these cameras are inherently problamatic and that things can easily get mis-aligned but are some folders built better and/or less problematic than others?

I'm considering a 6x6/6x9 Super Ikonta or a Voigtlander Bessa II Tessar/Skopar (Heliar is too expensive for my taste). I understand that these are front-cell focusing and hence not "optimal" but my Rollei 35 Tessar is fairly suitable within the limitations of 35mm.

 

[shortstop]

6x9: Welta Weltur (unfortunately rare) or Bessa RF with Heliar (half prized than Bessa II), both uncoated, but, if properly used, who cares?

6x6: Agfa Super Isolette or Super Ikonta III or IV

 

[thegman]

Funny you should mention those two.

I have had a Super Ikonta III, I found build quality very good, I was very surprised in fact. I had a Leica M3 at the time, and while the Leica felt more solid (it's got fewer moving parts on the outside, so it would do) I think build quality was on a par.

I've also had a Bessa II, and that I was less impressed with, tiny, pokey little finder, and it didn't open up as easily as the Zeiss. The Bessa I had to sort of tease it to fall open. The Zeiss, you push a button and it snaps open ready to take a picture.

I found the image quality from the Zeiss more than good enough for my needs, usability very good, and it's *tiny*.

My only real beef with it was that you had to put some gaffer tape on the film backing to thicken it up a bit, if you didn't, you got overlapping frames. It's not a massive deal, you just have to remember to do it.

I think the Super Ikonta III is a real bargain, it's a top notch camera for relatively little money. The Bessa II just didn't do it for me.

 

[literiter]

Certo Six! The front stage moves and adjusts for parallax.....a bit.

 

[Robert Lai]

Go Agfa Super Isolette / Ansco Super Speedex

Go Agfa Super Isolette / Ansco Super Speedex

I had very good results with the Super Ikonta B and BX - after servicing. However, the only folder I kept was the Agfa Super Isolette. It focuses much closer than the front cell focusing of the Super Ikontas (approx. 3 feet vs 5 feet). Also extremely rigid frame when opened (as are the Super Ikontas). The Agfa also contains some interlocks - you must retract the lens to its infinity position for example, before you can fold the camera. It keeps the door from crashing on the extended lens.

Like a Rolleiflex Automat, with the Agfa Super Isolette you thread the leader paper into the takeup spool and the camera will determine the start of the film. You will then have automatic frame spacing afterwards. You get 12 frames of 6x6 from the Agfa and Super Ikonta BX. The Super Ikonta B gives you 11 frames only.

In the USA, the Agfa Super Isolette was also sold as the Ansco Super Speedex. Same camera, just different marketing names.
The Russians had a clone of it called Iskra.

Expect to CLA any of these old cameras. However, they are worth it when working well.

 

[Robert Lai]

Don't bother with a 6x9 folder

Don't bother with a 6x9 folder

I should add that I also had a Zeiss Super Ikonta C in gorgeous condition, overhauled by Henry Scherer. Although it worked beautifully, I felt that the long struts of the 6x9 format gave too much flexibility to the body/lens alignment.

I don't have experience with the Bessa II, but I suspect that it has similar issues.

If you're looking at 6x9, then I would suggest a rigid body such as a Kodak Medalist II. Do it properly and have Ken Ruth overhaul the Medalist and modify it to take 120 film instead of 620 film.

 

[ZeissFan]

I have used Ikontas, Mess Ikontas and Super Ikontas with Tessars and found them to be excellent cameras.

The Agfa Record III (6x9) also is a very good camera, although you probably will need to free up the focusing and check the bellows for pinholes (common Agfa problems).

The struts on the Agfa Isolette III and the Super Isolette snap firmly into place.

I have serviced all of my own cameras, and some cameras definitely are simpler to restore than others.

I've added a postwar Super Ikonta C to my group, although it needs some work to relubricate the lens helical.

The Mess Ikonta 6x9 also has a coated Tessar and is an outstanding camera.

My scanner isn't connected to my computer at the moment, because of a relocation last year. I shot a bit with the Mess Ikonta (524/2) and found it to be an easy camera to use.

To be sure, you do need to adjust your shooting style with a 6x9 folder.

I also have a large number of 6x6 folders, including a Certo 6 that I picked up a couple of years ago. That is a large, sturdy camera. I don't really care for its focusing method (a lever at the lens door hinge that slides left to right).

The Super Isolette is a very nice camera to use. I have used the Super Ikonta B (532/16) a number of times. I rather like how this camera handles. I think the Tessar was pushed too far at f/2.8. At f/8, it's very sharp.

As I recall, this was at f/8 at 1/50 or 1/100.

Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta B (532/16), Zeiss-Opton 80mm Tessar

 

[Scrambler]

I'm considering a folder.

I understand that these cameras are inherently problamatic and that things can easily get mis-aligned but are some folders built better and/or less problematic than others?

I'm considering a 6x6/6x9 Super Ikonta or a Voigtlander Bessa II Tessar/Skopar (Heliar is too expensive for my taste). I understand that these are front-cell focusing and hence not "optimal" but my Rollei 35 Tessar is fairly suitable within the limitations of 35mm.

I have only limited experience, but the Zeiss folder I have (Nettar 515: a basic front-cell focussing triplet 645) is solid and reliable despite some rough use. Despite the triplet construction, this is a nice lens.

I have an Ensign Auto-Range 220 (which despite the number takes 120 film). The Ensign is a solid rangefinder with a moving focus stage. Not quite Leica levels of build quality, but definitely a step up from Soviet cameras. 6x6 or 645, with a top deck indicator for film spacing so no peeping at red windows after getting the first frame lined up.

I use my Ensign with a Steinheil Cassar 7.5cm/f2.9 off an old Welta. The Ensignar 75/4.5 it came with was fairly pedestrian in quality and speed. The Cassar is front-cell focus but it remains fixed in this use. How anyone could have been expected to guess-focus a 75mm f2.9 I don't know! At the least you would need an external rangefinder.

Ensign Auto-Range 220's seem to have leaped in price recently: the few examples I have seen are asking $300 or so.

 

[Robert Lai]

80mm f/2.8 Tessars - wishful thinking

80mm f/2.8 Tessars - wishful thinking

Mike makes a valid point. The 80mm f/2.8 Tessars are somewhat soft wide open and up close. They sharpen up noticeably when you stop them down. Also don't be surprised if the focus is off by 2cm or so at minimum focus. These cameras had the focus set at infinity, and whether or not minimum focus distance was accurate was often a matter of manufacturing tolerance, and the hope that the camera has not been dropped.

 

[pb908]

i had both bessa II skopar and heliar, opton tessar ikonta, normal tessar ikonta, mess ikonta with novar,
image quality-wise, i choose heliarfirst, opton tessar, skopar or tessar, then novar.
build quality-wise, zeiss has more firm snap but feel hollow, empty. while bessa II build like a rock, i accidentally dropped one from around 1 meter to ground and didn't notice any dent/issue with lens or RF. sold everything and keep heliar due to 6x9 and image quality. just my 2 cent

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Mike makes a valid point. The 80mm f/2.8 Tessars are somewhat soft wide open and up close. They sharpen up noticeably when you stop them down. Also don't be surprised if the focus is off by 2cm or so at minimum focus. These cameras had the focus set at infinity, and whether or not minimum focus distance was accurate was often a matter of manufacturing tolerance, and the hope that the camera has not been dropped.

Not to dismiss your point about manufacturing tolerances or poor care, but if focus is off a couple of centimetres at the minimum, infinity focus is probably not as accurate as it might seem. That's the thing about infinity. In the context of optical design, it is far enough away it can often look quite good, even when it's off. It is the reason I always cross check focus adjustment at the close end, as well as infinity. If the close focus is off, I have invariably found the infinity adjustment is not quite as accurate as I thought it was. And the shorter the lens is, the less obvious this is going to be. In the real world I would probably be inclined to optimise the closest distance as the lesser of two evils, as depth of field near infinity, even wide open, is likely to be much more forgiving that a minor calibration discrepancy at the close end.

On another point: is centre sharpness so poor at larger apertures with these 80mm Tessars? I quite agree they improve stopped down, as all lenses do, but if the behaviour of other Tessars I've used with 35mm camera, and the Schneider Tessars (Xenars) in Rolleicords is anything to go by, centre sharpness is often good, open, even if the edges and corners are less so. Roger opines better Tessars are no faster than f/6.3 (from my memory) and I respect his experience, so opinions vary on the subject, plus of course, one's frame of reference for judging sharpness varies, etc.
Cheers,
Brett

 

[oftheherd]

6x9: Welta Weltur (unfortunately rare) or Bessa RF with Heliar (half prized than Bessa II), both uncoated, but, if properly used, who cares?

6x6: Agfa Super Isolette or Super Ikonta III or IV

I have a Moskva 5; the lens standard is indeed loose. Not recommended to have one like that. Yet many have that camera and have models that take good photos. I have a Mamiya Six, it also works well. I also have A Welta and Fuji that are 6x6 and 645. They are nice photo takers. So are several other of the 6x6 folders I have. I also have a 6x9 Zeiss Ikon not-RF that takes wonderful photos.

Only the Moskva is a problem. All the rest work well. But I don't know your exact wishes in a camera. I would suggest you try some and see. If you find you don't like them, you shouldn't lose much if any on resale. You didn't mention if you want only a RF or if zone focus is OK. I personally don't find zone focus a problem once you get used to the idea you have to do the focusing yourself. But it can be easy to forget at first.

Good luck in your choice.

 

[Robert Lai]

Hi Brett,
The images at f/2.8 on my Opton Tessar (on the Super Ikonta BX) were similar to what you'd get out of a 50mm f/1.4 lens wide open in 35mm format. There is a bit of veiling flare, and the contrast is not as high as when stopped down. Central sharpness is good, and resolution falls off into the corners. The shallow DOF makes focus accuracy critical.

I had all of my Zeiss cameras overhauled by Henry Scherer.
He is obsessive about infinity focus setting using a collimator.
Yet, when I tested up close and wide open I found that only the Super Ikontas A, and BX were completely accurate. The Super Ikonta C was off by 2cm (back focussed), and even my 35mm Contessa was off by 1-2cm (back focused).

I do agree that if I shot wide open and up close all the time, I would have asked him to optimize the minimum focus, and let infinity lie in the depth of field. However, Henry seemed to regard this as unspeakably vile heresy when I mentioned it to him.

My Agfa Super Isolette with a 75mm f/3.5 lens focuses accurately wide open and up close as well as at infinity.

 

[Godfrey]

I had Zeiss Ikon Super Ikontas (A, B, and C varieties) in the past, and have a Balda Baldix 6x6 and a Voigtländer Perkeo II today. Of them all, my favorite from a build and performance point of view is the Perkeo II: it's tiny when folded, has a superb lens, and just feels solid and tight. The Baldix feels a bit more lightly built.

I had both the Baldix and Perkeo II overhauled, both are very nice to shoot with and work great.

G

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Hi Brett,
The images at f/2.8 on my Opton Tessar (on the Super Ikonta BX) were similar to what you'd get out of a 50mm f/1.4 lens wide open in 35mm format. There is a bit of veiling flare, and the contrast is not as high as when stopped down. Central sharpness is good, and resolution falls off into the corners. The shallow DOF makes focus accuracy critical.

I had all of my Zeiss cameras overhauled by Henry Scherer.
He is obsessive about infinity focus setting using a collimator.
Yet, when I tested up close and wide open I found that only the Super Ikontas A, and BX were completely accurate. The Super Ikonta C was off by 2cm (back focussed), and even my 35mm Contessa was off by 1-2cm (back focused).

I do agree that if I shot wide open and up close all the time, I would have asked him to optimize the minimum focus, and let infinity lie in the depth of field. However, Henry seemed to regard this as unspeakably vile heresy when I mentioned it to him.

My Agfa Super Isolette with a 75mm f/3.5 lens focuses accurately wide open and up close as well as at infinity.

Henry is well known for having strong opinions! Thanks for the additional information, most interesting!
Cheers,
Brett

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

Hi Brett,

I do agree that if I shot wide open and up close all the time, I would have asked him to optimize the minimum focus, and let infinity lie in the depth of field. However, Henry seemed to regard this as unspeakably vile heresy when I mentioned it to him.

My Agfa Super Isolette with a 75mm f/3.5 lens focuses accurately wide open and up close as well as at infinity.

It does not happen often that the most interesting subject is at infinity. When tinkering on folders I do the opposite, fix at 20 meters and check at infinity. For front cell focusing the lens should be optimal at 40x the focal length. My best guess is that the optical designers estimated that as near the average distance for most shots (at that time of photography) + allowing an acceptable minimal distance for front cell focusing. The 20 meter is already 5x that number on my MF folders.

Ernst Dinkla

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

I'm considering a folder.

I understand that these cameras are inherently problamatic and that things can easily get mis-aligned but are some folders built better and/or less problematic than others?

I'm considering a 6x6/6x9 Super Ikonta or a Voigtlander Bessa II Tessar/Skopar (Heliar is too expensive for my taste). I understand that these are front-cell focusing and hence not "optimal" but my Rollei 35 Tessar is fairly suitable within the limitations of 35mm.

The Bessa II unit focuses the respective Color Skopar, Heliar, Apo-Lanthar. That focus skid part is actually quite delicate what I have seen in damaged Bessa IIs.

The Agfa Super Isolette and related Ansco Speedex have unit focusing with a helical at the lens and that type is more robust. Tends to get stuck due to hard grease but that can be fixed. The copied Russian Iskra that I have uses the same mechanism + a better viewfinder. Its film transport counter works good on the one I have but is often broken on other ones. The Moment shutter is outstanding, best of the 4 folders I own.

Some Ensign models have a different way of unit focusing and some Mamiya models focus with the film plane. Little issues seen reported for them but the Ensign shutters.

Ernst Dinkla

 

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

When it comes to the Zeiss Mess Ikonta, don't ignore the versions with the Novar triplet. At f8 and smaller, I found it pretty good, back when I had a 6x9 524/2...

 

[Scrambler]

I've got to get me some proper film...

Ensign Auto-Range 220 with Steinheil Cassar 7.5cm/2.9 in a Compur-rapid shutter (lens and shutter off a Welta).

Shanghai GP3:

See no evil... by Scrambler@4350, on Flickr

35mm Hawkeye surveillance film respooled into 120 paper backing:

Dolphin Display by Scrambler@4350, on Flickr

I think the 35mm film, despite the scratches and lack of proper flatness, demonstrates that the lens (and focus mechanism) is better than the GP3 can show.

The Ensign Auto-Range 220 focuses by moving the whole front standard via a lever above the folding bed.

 

[johannielscom]

It's been mentioned here before: The Zeiss-Ikon super Ikonta B, the 532/16 type.

Currently the only 6x6 folder camera I own and no need for another. I have the close-up attachment with it that makes it focus under 1 mtrs, for portrait shooting. Love the thing.