nongfuspring
Well-known
On a recent trip to some large US cities I was really quite shocked at the lack of film development options, possibly because I had the conception (right or wrong) that there is still quite a big film community to support photo labs. The labs I did have the time to check out generally leaned more towards the professional end of the spectrum and generally had pretty brutal prices. It was a bit of a rude shock for my wallet and overall a bit of a disillusioning experience.
I was wondering perhaps if the lack of support for film photography is maybe not about dwindling customers, but because of an inability for labs to accommodate a changing economy of scale. I'm no expert on commercial developing equipment, but I would assume for a lab to maintain and run the necessary gear (as well as pay the staff to run them plus the high commercial property rents) would mean a substantial and consistent stream of customers, without which the lab will have to charge more per roll. Considering that developing at home is generally really cheap, scanning at high resolution is both fast and easy (i.e. a DSLR set up), and burning to DVDs/CDs is now unnecessary (can just be transferred via wetransfer, dropbox etc. - new laptops/tablets often don't have DVDs drives anyway) the whole commercial lab route for the average film user comes across as unnecessarily expensive and a bit archaic.
So what if film users in large, dense cities like NYC got together and started developing for each other? Maybe a couple of people would have a high capacity development set up and get paid per roll, let's say $3 for 35mm dev with a few extra bucks for scanning, perhaps one doing BW and another set up for C41. Film would either be posted in or left at a drop off point. For the people doing the development there are no overheads for rent, no need to hang around anywhere when there's no business, and since they're developing film already it doesn't take a whole lot longer to throw a few extra rolls in.
I don't imagine this would replace the pro labs, but it would give a more economical option to those that would like to shoot more film but can't because of a lack of time or interest in development. It would also hopefully serve as an easier window of access for first timers to try shooting film without having to spend intimidating sums of money on commercial labs or go all in with a DIY set up.
What do you guys think? Would you use such a service?
I was wondering perhaps if the lack of support for film photography is maybe not about dwindling customers, but because of an inability for labs to accommodate a changing economy of scale. I'm no expert on commercial developing equipment, but I would assume for a lab to maintain and run the necessary gear (as well as pay the staff to run them plus the high commercial property rents) would mean a substantial and consistent stream of customers, without which the lab will have to charge more per roll. Considering that developing at home is generally really cheap, scanning at high resolution is both fast and easy (i.e. a DSLR set up), and burning to DVDs/CDs is now unnecessary (can just be transferred via wetransfer, dropbox etc. - new laptops/tablets often don't have DVDs drives anyway) the whole commercial lab route for the average film user comes across as unnecessarily expensive and a bit archaic.
So what if film users in large, dense cities like NYC got together and started developing for each other? Maybe a couple of people would have a high capacity development set up and get paid per roll, let's say $3 for 35mm dev with a few extra bucks for scanning, perhaps one doing BW and another set up for C41. Film would either be posted in or left at a drop off point. For the people doing the development there are no overheads for rent, no need to hang around anywhere when there's no business, and since they're developing film already it doesn't take a whole lot longer to throw a few extra rolls in.
I don't imagine this would replace the pro labs, but it would give a more economical option to those that would like to shoot more film but can't because of a lack of time or interest in development. It would also hopefully serve as an easier window of access for first timers to try shooting film without having to spend intimidating sums of money on commercial labs or go all in with a DIY set up.
What do you guys think? Would you use such a service?
it'sawhat?
Established
I'd be interested but how much is the person doing the developing getting? After all their time and the ability to deliver consistant high quality work is worth something. At some point this would be work not just developing your personal stuff .
nongfuspring
Well-known
I think ideally the developer should dictate how much they're willing to charge based on their own workflow and what chemicals are involved.
oftheherd
Veteran
I expect to make it worth while, a business would have to have sufficient quantity to keep a machine running most of the business day. That is just the developing. Then if you want scans and prints, there are other machines needed. All have to be manned and maintained. Those of us who prefer film often prefer to develop and print ourselves, so we may not wish to support such a business on a constant basis.
I wish it were so however. I had no problem, in fact, preferred taking my color film to the local drug store, which normally did a really god job. I don't even know if they still do it, since when they changed to destroying my film and giving not so great scans back, I just quit taking film there.
So while I like your idea, and there might be enough business to make it work, eventually, I think it would take a while to build up a client base. Without a good steady client base, it won't be profitable, so can't be sustained.
Back to the old days of developing all my film, making (digital) proof sheets, and only printing what I really want to spend time making prints of.
I wish it were so however. I had no problem, in fact, preferred taking my color film to the local drug store, which normally did a really god job. I don't even know if they still do it, since when they changed to destroying my film and giving not so great scans back, I just quit taking film there.
So while I like your idea, and there might be enough business to make it work, eventually, I think it would take a while to build up a client base. Without a good steady client base, it won't be profitable, so can't be sustained.
Back to the old days of developing all my film, making (digital) proof sheets, and only printing what I really want to spend time making prints of.
Corran
Well-known
Seriously?
Leaving aside the fact that pro labs charge what they do for a reason, cutting the cost down to the bone like that is literally slave-labor rates. That kind of cost would assume a massively automated process, especially the scanning.
I continue to be perplexed at a lot of comments I read here that do one or more of the following: 1) complain about dev costs 2) complain about dev availability 3) complain about scan costs/quality 4) complain about having to develop at all. Either shoot film and deal with either the costs or time involved to do it, or go digital.
Maybe I'm being a bit harsh but I work 40-50 hours per week in my day job but still manage to shoot/develop/scan dozens of rolls/sheets a month, including B&W/C-41/E-6, and print work in my darkroom. I make the time because it is something I am passionate about.
I develop color film for a few friends including dev and scan (3000dpi on a pro scanner) and I charge $20/roll, which is cheaper than I really feel I should get but at the limit of their ability to pay (so I make sure I run it with my own film and don't do special runs).
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Want it cheap - develop and scan yourself. Around $2 per roll.
c-41 is fast procces as well.
c-41 is fast procces as well.
nongfuspring
Well-known
I think this is a good point in that it's not as if someone would send their film off to just whomever is capable of doing it cheaply. So yeah, it would take some time to build that trust etc.
It's not really a business as per se, even at just one roll it's profitable because there aren't any ongoing costs as there are for a lab. So long as someone has the time and the capacity to give it a go then it in theory is feasible - wether or not that person finds it worth their while though is another issue.
brbo
Well-known
$3?! Really?
Make it $30/roll and I'd consider it.
Yes, developing is easy and cheap and I do it all the time (BW, BW reversal, C-41 and E-6) at home. But I'd only need to fck up one roll and explain that to a "client" and I'd know that all the peanuts I got for previous 100 rolls were not worth it...
Make it $30/roll and I'd consider it.
Yes, developing is easy and cheap and I do it all the time (BW, BW reversal, C-41 and E-6) at home. But I'd only need to fck up one roll and explain that to a "client" and I'd know that all the peanuts I got for previous 100 rolls were not worth it...
nongfuspring
Well-known
It's fair you have that attitude that film photography takes time and you're willing to put in that effort, but not everyone does. I do all my own processing too, and I personally enjoy it, but I would entirely understand if someone were to want to shoot film but not develop it personally. You hear a lot of complaining about your 1.,2., and 3., because for a lot of people those are actually barriers. I don't see why it has to be an either or when it comes to "dealing with it" or shooting digital.
Regarding the pricing, as I mentioned earlier it's fairest if the developers dictate their rates, but I wouldn't think $3 per roll is necessarily unreasonable. Let's say a lab charges you $6 for a roll, a large chunk of that is going towards rent, power, staff, machinery maintenance - a DIY developer only really needs to worry about the cost of additional chemicals. Personally, I would be happy to develop an extra few rolls for people at $3 per roll in rodinal, it wouldn't be any substantial extra effort on my part.
I think of this less as a business, and more like car pooling.
mfogiel
Veteran
Maybe you could spur some photo student's collective - they have to shoot film anyway and perhaps would be willing to work for a more modest fee than commercial labs.
Lauffray
Invisible Cities
i agree with that, but I also see the point in what he said about complaining. You have to make choices, there's no point complaining about what's blocking you. What's the objective here and what's more important to you ?
I agree with that as well, in fact I like it so much I'd charge only enough to cover my costs, that is essentially doing it for no money. My experience though is you have to set expectations from the start, as soon as money exchanges hands it's a little different. Accidents do happen, what if you mess up someone's precious roll ? What if it doesn't turn out the way the expected or they look different or they're too this or not enough that etc
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
That assumes a DIY developer who, for some unfathomable reason, prefers to process partially loaded tanks so that he can host other's films that happen to come his way. Usually, processing an extra batch means doing an extra run (for each maybe six to eight rolls - if the "customers" are willing to wait until that many accumulate). With less than a batch per day, that puts the time for setting up, testing, cleaning up all into the effort spent on that single batch - in my experience, something like two hours of work. With black and white it is even worse, as you can't even hope to accumulate batches out of the miscellaneous different films your "customers" are likely to hand in for development, and which need different processing each...
Most pro labs went out of business as their charges were not enough in the face of shrinking volumes - and hereabouts they charged upward of $15 (12€) towards the end, while still remaining unprofitable.
And all that does not even consider the risk of liabilities (who is going to pay for accidentally destroyed rolls and the images on them?), or the risk of getting recognized as a business and having to pay taxes on the $3 a roll, plus a fine for not adhering to the environmental regulations that apply to professional labs...
brbo
Well-known
Do it for free or do it properly (for proper money).
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
No way would I develop film for $3 a roll. It takes close to an hour of my time to do that. I should work for less than half the minimum wage? You're nuts! I make $25 an hour as a teacher.
There are a lot of costs in developing film for pay. Water. Insurance in case someone sues you when the photos are not done right. Compliance with environmental regulations.
If the cost of real photo labs is a barrier, then, yes people should go digital or suck it up. Photography is expensive. It always amazes me that guys with $20,000 in Leica gear will bitch about the cost of film or developing.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
You could do it as friend-to-friend. It would not work as commercial service to unknown ppl.
I would not mind developing BW for somebody who, in return, develops slides for me.
However mutual trust would be involved. I would not give my slide film to some unknown dude unofficially at the other side of town and hope it all goes well. In the same time, as said above by someone else, i would not take some unknown dude's film to develop and then try to explain myself why it doesnt look like he expected. Whether it is my mistake or his. What would he do? Sue me? Break my legs? And what would i do if i screw up for him?
Local labs didnt guarantee(at least in Europe) further than the value of a fresn, unexposed roll of film. Happened to me that a slide roll i shot in Brazil was lost and i got a fresh roll as "compensation", no need to say i was real disappointed.
I would not mind developing BW for somebody who, in return, develops slides for me.
However mutual trust would be involved. I would not give my slide film to some unknown dude unofficially at the other side of town and hope it all goes well. In the same time, as said above by someone else, i would not take some unknown dude's film to develop and then try to explain myself why it doesnt look like he expected. Whether it is my mistake or his. What would he do? Sue me? Break my legs? And what would i do if i screw up for him?
Local labs didnt guarantee(at least in Europe) further than the value of a fresn, unexposed roll of film. Happened to me that a slide roll i shot in Brazil was lost and i got a fresh roll as "compensation", no need to say i was real disappointed.
rodinal
film user
Rayt
Nonplayer Character
I developed b/w film for a friend once and then regretted it. What if the negatives came out less than ideal? Would be blame me? I don't want that kind of responsibility.
Ronald M
Veteran
Now you are running a business from your home likely illegal because of zoning regs. Now you need to higher accountants and pay taxes.
Manual scanning is cost prohibitive.
Manual scanning is cost prohibitive.