concerned about digi M?

ywenz

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I just got access to Sean Reid's review site, and upon looking at the performance of the DMR at 800ISO and comparing that to the Ricoh GRD at 800ISO, I must say that the image from the DMR is not much better than from the smallish GRD! (1600 is even worse)

Isn't Leica basically using the DMR's sensor in the digi M ? I sure hope they are able to make some leaps in the high ISO performance!
 
that would be the easy/smart way out for Leica..

not quite so for Canon though.... In the end it is us, the consumer who loses.
 
are you tring to be sarcastic jaapv?

I'm in agreement with you and am not a fan of the digital look at all. The DMR is of no exception, not even the slightest. I've seen piss poor digital-looking shots form the DRM and great, film-like shots from the full frame Canons, and vice versa. So what does that tell you?

What is obvious is its poor high ISO performance. I didn't realize this until I saw Reid's review, and compared it to the Ricoh GRD(which I'm interested in).
 
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Never. The sensor on the DMR has a dynamic range capability that canon and nikon envy. Noise at higher ISO is a problem. But, I rarely shoot anything above 100. I am more than willing to sacrifice high iso for dynamic range and color rendering which even the 16.7 Canon 1DSII lacks when compared to the DMR. Take it from me. I have owned both and still own the DMR. One more thing, the DMR offers the most film like image from a digital camera than any other system. Canon's tend to reproduce that platic look which has become a stereotype of the digital era. In other words, if the DM has the same sensor as the DMR, I would be very happy .
 
Jorge: yes, i agree that if you shoot low ISO, then any camera with a good low ISO performance is a good match for you.

The digi M will undoubtly be used tremendously for available light photography. Digital M users are gonna want to use it at 800, 1600, 3200.... I doubt many will be using it to mainly take landscape at 100...
 
ywenz said:
are you tring to be sarcastic jaapv?

I'm in agreement with you and am not a fan of the digital look at all. The DMR is of no exception, not even the slightest.

What is obvious is its poor high ISO performance. I didn't realize this until I saw Reid's review, and compared it to the Ricoh GRD(which I'm interested in).


The point in case being that Canon reduces noise in the camera, Leica needs to have that done in post-processing, giving the user more control
 
jaapv said:
The point in case being that Canon reduces noise in the camera, Leica needs to have that done in post-processing, giving the user more control

In the review, the lower noise canon examples clearly shows more detail than the Leica. Your assumption in this case would be incorrect.

I hope the digi M will not get a simple derivative of the DMR sensor... I assume Leica is smart enough to realize this is their flagship model and will do everything to make it as robust as possible.
 
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jano said:
needs.. 16mp... foveon... 😀

Only in a perfect world.

Can not talk about the high iso performance because I do not have one. But saving the pennies for the Digital M. Would have rather had a full frame sensor though but understand why it will not happen. :bang:
 
This week I read in the LHSA magazine that the M digi will not use the same sensor as the DMR. Imacon was going to partner with Leica on the M but quality control issues have been a problem. In the statement from Leica the new sensor will be a Kodak and the elctronics will come from another German manufacturer. Fortunately Kodak sensors are excellent even though they never could make them work in their own camera. I don't remember exactly but I think two or three of the MF digital backs use the Kodak sensors. I believe Leif is one but I might be wrong.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=5045
 
ywenz said:
In the review, the lower noise canon examples clearly shows more detail than the Leica. Your assumption in this case would be incorrect.

I hope the digi M will not get a simple derivative of the DMR sensor... I assume Leica is smart enough to realize this is their flagship model and will do everything to make it as robust as possible.
The amount of detail has little to do with the presence of noise.
There is a difference between sharpness and sharpness. One is resolution,i.e. the number of lines reproduced, which shows up in things like 100% crops and more detail in large enlargements, and then there is acuity, which is the sharpness as we perceive it when looking at the photograph,which is produced by the abruptness of the transition between the lines. Think of it like sine waves vs block waves. That is definition as opposed to resolution, which can be compared to frequency. A high frequency sine wave will have less definition but a higher detail content than a low frequency blockwave which will be far more defined. Now in terms of resolution the Canon 16 MP sensor is clearly more powerful than the Leica's 10 MP. In acuity it loses out due to the heavy optical filtering in front of the sensor and the noise reduction in the camera.In the Leica-Canon thread on FM forums there is a beautiful example of that in the comparison of a resolution chart, on page 147 I believe. In principle CMOS sensors ar far more noisy and moiré sensitive than CCD type sensors, but Canon has done a great job in producing what they have now, which produces velvity images. I've been told CMOS sensors are less expensive too.The technical price for Canon's technology, however, has been the "Canon-digilook". Leica, with its very thin filtering and limited noise-reduction, even if it resolves less, has a far sharper and lively look in their pictures, if you do not blow them up to bill-board size, when the resolution difference starts to show if you view from close enough. The price for that is that noise can be more obtrusive, especially at higher ISO settings. Think of noise like tape or amplifier hiss. But I can assure you that I can give my sometimes very noisy Digilux2 files a very Canon-like smoothness using Neat Image or Noise Ninja. In the end, CCD photographs tend to look more photographic. I too was blown away by the smoothness, nearly like mid-format through the lack of grain, read noise,of my 10D photo's, but after the first 2000 or so, I can only describe them as wearysome or bland looking compared to the technically less polished Digilux results. So Please, Mr Leica, a DMR-like sensor for me. I like film, I don't mind grain, I don't mind noise, and if I need to I can control it.
 
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There are pretty much no more then 5 manufacturers of digital chips for cameras. The largest supplier of manufactured digital chips for cameras is Sony. Canon makes their own. While Kodak does too, they have produced lousy results due to poor in camera softare as far as what I've read and understand. In-camera software has a lot to do with how chips, especially CCD , perform. I own Canon and the Panasonic versions of the Leicas. I shoot the majority of my commercial work with the Canons because it produces a look what my clients and agencies require and want. For me personally, I love the look of the files from my Panasonics. Very, very film like.

If Kodak can get it together and produce the quality their chips deserve, then they could have something that would be truly competitive. But if history repeats itself, they could produce a real dud. This is what I fear most for Leica. They tend to partner with companies that have the technology, but never really the product.

I still anxiously await the DM. Lets hope for the best.
 
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I own canon 1DsII bodies and use them daily in my commercial work. Prior to the 1DsII equipment I had 1Ds and 1D bodies and prior to that i had Nikon D1, D1X and D100 bodies. Even before that i was shooting in the studio with the Dicomed scanning back, what a pain. I only work with raw files and my jpg's are for generating contacts only. One observation concerning the digital look. Very few people understand that there is only so much information in a digital file and beyond a certain point in enlargement the image looks like trash. You can not add information that does not exist. With film you enlarge grain but with digital you generate blotchy clumps of mush that were once details. A good example is enlarging a landscape with leaves on the trees. Enlarging the file quickly turnes the leaves into clumps of sea sponges that are saturated with green paint. Too many shooters think they can overcome this by sharpening to an excessive degree in photoshop. This does notheing more than make the image look like plastic clumps of green sponges. Much of this digital look is not the native file but the inability of the shooter to process the file properly. Properly processed and sharpened files are stunning from the canons. I don't know how many times I've read on various forums how shooters overcome the strong AA filter in the canons. Most think all they have to do is keep pushing the unsharp mask controls up untill it gets sharp. Wrong! Unfortunately there's a trend to over sharpen, over saturate color and over enlarge the image.

Over the years I've shot a few hundred thousand sheets and rolls of transparency film. Most of the film with some exceptions was Kodak ektachrome. There was a period that I shot a great deal of fuji RDP but in later years it was mostly E100 sw and GX ektachrome. Looking critically at these films reveals that color is not oversaturated but very natural to slightly warm in rendition and detail is not overly sharp. The details of a persons face does not stand out an inch from their face. I process and sharpen my canon files to look like film which it does. The detail is there but not at all harsh and the color is natural to slightly warm and absolutely not over saturated. I honestly believe that even a very critical observer could not tell which of my images were shot on film and which were shot on my 1DsII.

Keep in mind that shooters are trying to make the DSLR the totoal replacement for all the formats that we previously used. The 1DsII is a very good replacement for MF and 35mm but starts to fall short of even MF on enlargements of more than 200-300% (cmyk litho printing). By no means is it a replacement for large format. One camera is not the total answer. There has never been a perfect film for all uses and a single perfect format or camera for every use. Why would anyone expect a small format DSLR to be the perfect solution for every use? This is why I still own and shoot with my film equipment up to 8x10 format.

I really do believe that most of this digital look comes from a lack of understanding of processing files and a trend to over sharpen and over saturate the image. If you're shooting jpg's and not raw then you have another strike against you in achieving the film look. I really see digital as another tool and not a total replacement for film. Unfortunately most of my clients don't see it that way.


http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=5045
 
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x-ray said:
This week I read in the LHSA magazine that the M digi will not use the same sensor as the DMR. Imacon was going to partner with Leica on the M but quality control issues have been a problem. In the statement from Leica the new sensor will be a Kodak and the elctronics will come from another German manufacturer.

IIRC the sensor in the DMR is a Kodak. Imacon did the firmware.

I'm shocked and surprised to hear about the DMR having quality control issues because every review I've read so far from people who have bought the DMR have been utterly gushing.

As the recent owner of a Canon 20D I'm still scratching my head trying to see something in the pictures that looks like plastic. Perhaps I need to ask some DMR owner and/or Nikon digital owners to show me, since they seem to be the ones who see it obviously in Canon shots. None of the Canon d-SLR owners I've spoken with think their shots are plasticky, and of those the pros haven't heard any complaints from their customers either.

That said, and to the point of the original topic, the DMR with its bulk and weight, lack of AF, and textured focus screen (I had an R8) and slow burst rate, is probably not made with low-light candid street photography or photojouralism as its primary market so if it needs to be shot below ISO 400 to get decent image quality it's probably not an issue. To interest and please most owners of Leica M film cameras, the digital-M will have to perform well at high ISOs.
 
Ben Z---

I agree regarding the plastic look, where and what is it? None of my clients have ever complained about the digital look, whatever that is. I shoot for some major corporations that would'nt let anything inferior pass. I stick to my statement that the plastic look comes from in camera jpg's and poorly processed raw files.

I also have a 20D and shoot along with the MKII gear. One thing about digital, the price is low and a broad range of shooters can buy top equipment. There are very competent shooters and there are ones that should go back to a brownie. You can not judge the quality of a camera by the average shooters results. Look at the top and use that as the standard not the bottom. It's the same with fil cameras. Some shooters crank out crap from their Leica M's and others spin gold. All Leica M cameras can not be judged by the shooters cranking out crap.


http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=5045
 
x-ray i'd love to see some of your digital work..

when you say "process the canon files to make them look like film" are you simply adjusting the settings allowed to you in the raw converter? Or are you also adding grain layers and such...

Going back to the original topic, I want to reiterate that the DigiM's high ISO performance needs to be much better than that of the DMR's. I don't care what solution Leica pulls out of their sleeve, I only care about the end result. I've heard some promising news here that it won't be the same sensor as the DMR's..
 
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