Determining Validity of "Military" Camera

[photogdave]

Hi, hoping I can get a bit of help.
I'm trying to help a gentleman determine if he has an authentic Leica German navy camera.
From the serial number I've determined it's a Leica IIIc. It is stamped W. Haven, referring to Wilhelmshaven, a German naval base during WWII. It also has the eagle and swastika emblem that I believe was typical of cameras ordered specifically for the Kreigsmarine.
I haven't been able to find much info online other than this reference:
"Naval Leicas were usually restricted to an "M", for Marine (Navy), sometimes followed by a number, located above the serial number. The navy was the only service which sometimes also engraved a Reichsadler (a swastika surmounted by an eagle) on the top left-hand corner of the top-plate. "W.haven" is also found, for the naval base at Wilhelmshaven."
From this website: http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12
So I'm just trying to determine if there's a way of authenticating this camera, and if it's real, what the value is.
I have not seen it in person but here's some photos that were emailed to me.
Thanks for any help!

 

[John Shriver]

It is a real Leica.

Whether the engravings are authentic would require a consultation with James Lager.

 

[photogdave]

It is a real Leica.

Whether the engravings are authentic would require a consultation with James Lager.

Thanks. Who is James Lager and how can I contact him?

 

[hans voralberg]

He's the author of "Leica An Illustrated History"

 

[LeicaTom]

Write me off the board with your serial number information and I`ll pass it on to Jim, we are always in constant contact concerning these wartime issue Leica`s.

And just from what I can see by the pics, it looks like a original 1942 issue Leica IIIC KM (Kriegsmarine) camera with a KM issue Xenon
(this is a VERY RARE original issue) if the serial numbers line up.

Write me at

winkermeister@aol.com

Thank You

Tom

 

[JoshRoot]

Wartime Leicas are very rare. I'm no expert, but I would be VERY suspicious of any war leica until I had someone who was an expert vouch for it. There are far too many people who look for a quick buck by faking some engravings.

At least this looks to be a real leica. unlike most of the fakes that pop up and are FSU junk.

 

[LeicaTom]

This one`s the REAL DEAL, original 1942 Leica IIIC w/ Leitz Xenon f1.5/50 issued to the German Navy *Kriegsmarine* in early 1942.

The camera was part of gear captured together with survivors from a destroyed German U-Boat, picked up by the Royal Navy at sea, more than likely out of part of the Atlantic Air Gap south of the Greenland area in late 1942 or early 1943.
*Very few U-Boat crews were ever captured, most of the Kriegsmarine`s U-Boat submarine crews perished with their ships, from the 40,000 members of the U-Boat Kriegsmarine less then 10,000 survived WW2.*

I just received the camera in the mail today, and it`s a fine example of a very rare "wartime" camera combo, some slight upgrades were made when it had a CLA from Leitz Canada in the late 1960`s, but nothing that cannot be corrected,
(I have that Red Curtain parts camera), from the UK that`s going to be the donor for the missing parts. (one dial, a lever and the eyepiece).

The Leica IIIC/f1.5/50 Xenon combo ~ Leitz sales code LOOSB ~ was one of the rarest of all issues during the war, I`m still researching this together with Jim Lager, but I do believe that it`s going to be less than 30 cameras delivered and according to Xenon records, the lens on this camera is one of the last one`s ever issued.

As soon as the camera`s back from CLA, I`ll post detailed photos.

Tom

 

[LeicaTom]

Well, I`m pretty excited! 😀 ~ my research is back about this camera as sold as Leitz Sales Code LOOSB Leica IIIC/w Xenon
it`s one of 3 ~ FIRST of three,
(well I got the 3 right, but it was`nt 30 it was 3)
cameras made for the German Navy "Kriegsmarine".

I know of it`s "sister" camera one serial number away the "middle" camera which is in a private collection in Europe, but where the "third" camera is I don`t know........perhaps that`s the one that didn`t make it back from a War patrol?

No Photos yet! It still has to go to Youxin for services and CLA, hope to have her done within the month.

Tom

 

[johannielscom]

Well, I`m pretty excited! 😀 ~ my research is back about this camera as sold as Leitz Sales Code LOOSB Leica IIIC/w Xenon
it`s one of 3 ~ FIRST of three,
(well I got the 3 right, but it was`nt 30 it was 3)
cameras made for the German Navy "Kriegsmarine".

I know of it`s "sister" camera one serial number away the "middle" camera which is in a private collection in Europe, but where the "third" camera is I don`t know........perhaps that`s the one that didn`t make it back from a War patrol?

No Photos yet! It still has to go to Youxin for services and CLA, hope to have her done within the month.

Tom

That is very nice indeed!😀

 

[LeicaTom]

Johan,

I just heard back from Jim, he`s going to write up an article for the LHSA Viewfinder magazine about this camera and the Kriegsmarine shipment, there`s ONE missing camera, so we`re looking for it, as soon as the camera`s back from Youxin and CLA then I will post the serial numbers of the three cameras online and see if anyone can shed light on the "third" Xenon camera, if it survived WW2 as did the European collectors camera and mine have, through a strange twist of fate, or if it lays untombed at the bottom of the ocean on one of the 600+ German U-Boats sank by Allied forces during WW2? ~ Only time will tell the story......

Tom

 

[johannielscom]

Johan,

I just heard back from Jim, he`s going to write up an article for the LHSA Viewfinder magazine about this camera and the Kriegsmarine shipment, there`s ONE missing camera, so we`re looking for it, as soon as the camera`s back from Youxin and CLA then I will post the serial numbers of the three cameras online and see if anyone can shed light on the "third" Xenon camera, if it survived WW2 as did the European collectors camera and mine have, through a strange twist of fate, or if it lays untombed at the bottom of the ocean on one of the 600+ German U-Boats sank by Allied forces during WW2? ~ Only time will tell the story......

Tom

I would sure like to read that article Tom!

That reminds me, I have finally figured out a way to get these macro shots of my red-curtain IIIc stepper: using my mobile phone!

Will send you the promised pictures soon, early next week. Have you found an opportunity to trouble Jim about the other number camera I am looking for? Would be most obliged!

 

[LeicaTom]

Well here`s an update on the "Kriegsmarine" Leica.....

It just arrived at Youxin`s today, he`s going over it with a fine tooth comb together with the parts cameras and the few incorrect parts will be replaced, the camera itself is pretty clean inside, and I doubt that it`s seen 20 rolls of film since it was CLA`d in the early 1970`s.

The KM Xenon lens which is crystal clear (but it has some seperation in the front element) takes PERFECT photos, which I tested just last week ~ (mounted on my M6)
andI posted the results in my photo album here at RFF ~ My favorite photo from the series is here.....the model is my lovely friend Daciana.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=105078&ppuser=13686

I will more than likely use this Xenon often together on my 45' IIIC K Chrome when shooting my "everyday" Artistic Retro Fetish work and styles, it`s one of my favorite lenses of all time, and this example in particular shows great dimension and bokeh, and it`s surely now in better times, shooting scantly clad girls then in it`s former role, photographing 1940`s German Naval Propaganda or Combat scenes.....

Tom

PS: I think that if anyone wants a very typical "vintage" looking lens to work with then the Xenon`s the right lens for you....it`s sort of a 50mm compact version of the "THAMBAR" and works and reacts so when used as a portrait lens....

 

[LeicaTom]

Tom would you mind clarifying what this thread is all about , it appears to have started with one person asking a question about the validity of a camera and the next moment it appears that you are authenticating it, and then that you own it?

is that correct? or am i missing something? how did this come about? just confused is all

cheers Andrew

Andrew,

Ohh yes, sorry for the confusion, I have purchased this camera from the man in Nova Scotia who was originally inquiring about it`s history, sorry I didn`t post anything about the day I bought it, just that it`s arrived in the mail, sorry!

That man had originally contated David (Photodave) the Leica Rep in Vancouver, B.C. and he contacted me, normally I don`t buy or collect WW2 German Military cameras, but since I have always had an interest in the world Navy`s
(my Dad is a WW2 Navy vet from the Pacific Theater of Operations)
this seemed like a very interesting camera, and I`m a BIG Xenon fan, the lens alone made up my mind on acquiring this one.

As soon as it`s back from CLA/Repairs from Youxin Ye, I will more than likely post it in it`s own thread with photos and some history

 

[historicist]

Out of pure random interest, did your interest in 50s style fetish photography come from an interest in 40s/50s cameras, or vice versa, or both?

Cheers,

 

[wjlapier]

That's some neat history Tom. I'm glad you bought it and have confirmed it's authenticity. One of three is very cool. Are you gonna put a roll through it?

 

[LeicaTom]

Out of pure random interest, did your interest in 50s style fetish photography come from an interest in 40s/50s cameras, or vice versa, or both?

Cheers,

Hahahhahahaha!

That`s a long story, but to make it short, I was (before) in the 1990`s a big Leica Collector/Dealer in Germany (worked for the US Army there) and in my part time on weekends did camera shows and collected Leica stuff (mostly 1950`s Screw Mount Gear) IIIF`s and IIIG`s.

My ex-girlfriend was into her own little world of fetishes, like shoes and light bondage, brought home a book about Bettie Page (who I`d never seen before ~ this was 1991/92 ~ I had no clue whop she was!)
and I was hooked on the style, she started collecting vintage clothes, lingerie, shoes and stockings and the rest now is history......and my everyday business.

I used mainly Screw Mount Cameras back then and my lone brave M6, after I moved back to the States I sold ALL my Screw Mount Leica`s and went digital, about 3 years ago, I gave up on the digital and went back to my first love, Screw Mount Leica`s ~ and mainly "postwar" US Army IIIC`s with "wartime" era lenses, also ALWAYS liked the Grey paint Leica IIIC K`s, but never could afford one, two years ago, I found one through a New York estate sale, and that pretty much started up my Shooting/Collecting again.

I use almost ALL of my gear listed in my signature, except the Grey Paint IIIC K, the Kriegsmarine Leica will more than likely also NOT be used often, but it`s lens will BE! 🙂 ~ I was very impressed with it`s performance when shooting Daciana and I`m sure that I`ll be using it again soon...... 😀

Tom

 

[LeicaTom]

That's some neat history Tom. I'm glad you bought it and have confirmed it's authenticity. One of three is very cool. Are you gonna put a roll through it?

Yes, I think that I`ll put a few rolls through it for sure, and use it for my "artsy" retro styled shoots, I`m sure the Xenon will be sitting on my M6 and the lens is what will be used more often from the combo 😉...........the Xenon`s one of my all time favorites and finding one with some history was even more of a delight for me.

The research also has opened up a new chapter for Jim Lager`s history, in now more cameras that were issued to the Kriegsmarine can be verified, (not many were issued) but what was questionable now for a few, has been proven, I`ll share more about all of this when I post it`s own thread here at RFF 🙂

Tom

 

[historicist]

Thanks! I ask because it's an admirably consistent attitude towards the equipment and type of photography. The whole burlesque thing was pretty fashionable in London in the last few years, a fair few people I know are into the 50s thing.

 

[George S.]

Tom, when it returns would you please post some quality photos of the camera and it's engravings? Also, since it has an engraving "W.Haven" and you're in Winter Haven, it was just made for you to own it! Ciao!

 

[LeicaTom]

Thanks! I ask because it's an admirably consistent attitude towards the equipment and type of photography. The whole burlesque thing was pretty fashionable in London in the last few years, a fair few people I know are into the 50s thing.

Yes, well some of my main style influences come from 1950`s/60`s classic UK "Cheesecake" and "Stocking Fetish" Photography masters like Russell Gay and George Harrison Marks..... from the lnfamous SPIC & SPAN magazine`s etc.

I wish I could travel to the UK now and jump onto the band wagon over there, there`s so many great locations that are still era looking and the Military vehicle and classic car collectors have some wonderful and rare rides.

I`d love to adorn some classic British Sportscars with some sexy young female Stocking and Lingerie models!!!!! 😀

Ahhh I just need some travel money or a good sponsor....sigh!

Tom