Kurt Krueger
Newbie
Hi to everyone. I've been online since the 80s - and if you can believe it , I've never actually used a Forum before. Never been a need. So forgive me if I stumble through this.
My question: A friend recently gave me a 4x5 Speed Graflex Rangefinder. While I do still have my 4x5 film holders from 4 decades ago, I no longer have a darkroom - and there are basically none to be found in Florida. At least none that I know of.
So I'd like to know if there's a way to rig this camera with a digital back (and a digital flash as well)? Do they even make them? I've searched B&H, eBay, Amazon - and everywhere else I can think of with no luck. B&H Photography actually sent me to this site for the answer. They don't know.
Any leads, clues or help on this subject would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Kurt
My question: A friend recently gave me a 4x5 Speed Graflex Rangefinder. While I do still have my 4x5 film holders from 4 decades ago, I no longer have a darkroom - and there are basically none to be found in Florida. At least none that I know of.
So I'd like to know if there's a way to rig this camera with a digital back (and a digital flash as well)? Do they even make them? I've searched B&H, eBay, Amazon - and everywhere else I can think of with no luck. B&H Photography actually sent me to this site for the answer. They don't know.
Any leads, clues or help on this subject would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Kurt
Frontman
Well-known
You can use a medium format digital back with an adapter, such as a Leaf back, but these don't come close to covering 4x5, and they are not cheap. You can also use a Polaroid PA45 or PA145 instant film back, Fuji still provides film for these. Developing 4x5 black and white film is not hard to do at home, and you can get excellent digital scans with a relatively inexpensive flatbed scanner.
Kurt Krueger
Newbie
The Polaroid PA45 thing is a very good idea. I hadn't thought of that. That could potentially do the trick. And I already have 3 flatbead scanners. However, I'm still scanning in everything from the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and early 2000s. Ugh.
(Off topic... something that really bugs me about these scanners is how they're preprogrammed as to format. I have a lot of odd sized negatives which are a nightmare to get in. Things like the old Brownie and Kodak cameras from the 30s and 40s. And I even have Minox microfilm which I have to somehow get in as well. Plus, in my photography school days, I did a lot of pushing and pulling of film - so I have some really wacky densities that these modern scanners just can't read. But that's all another story...)
Do you have any ideas about hooking up an electronic flash to the Rangefinder? The whole point is that I want to emulate that old news press look. But I'm not a purist. Faking it electronically is OK with me.
Kurt
(Off topic... something that really bugs me about these scanners is how they're preprogrammed as to format. I have a lot of odd sized negatives which are a nightmare to get in. Things like the old Brownie and Kodak cameras from the 30s and 40s. And I even have Minox microfilm which I have to somehow get in as well. Plus, in my photography school days, I did a lot of pushing and pulling of film - so I have some really wacky densities that these modern scanners just can't read. But that's all another story...)
Do you have any ideas about hooking up an electronic flash to the Rangefinder? The whole point is that I want to emulate that old news press look. But I'm not a purist. Faking it electronically is OK with me.
Kurt
f16sunshine
Moderator
Hi Kurt
Just get yourself a changing tent and a Jobo 4x5 Tank and reels.
Works great and much less mess and money than polaroid or a digital.
I have seen backs that can mount a DSLR body.
The mount can slide around so you can make multiple captures and easily stitch them.
Never tried it.
Just get yourself a changing tent and a Jobo 4x5 Tank and reels.
Works great and much less mess and money than polaroid or a digital.
I have seen backs that can mount a DSLR body.
The mount can slide around so you can make multiple captures and easily stitch them.
Never tried it.
Corran
Well-known
The flash will be hooked up to the lens (shutter).
Have you shot large-format before?? Might want to go to www.largeformatphotography.info and start reading. Also www.largeformatphotography.info/forum for the forum.
As to your question, unless you've got 5 figures to throw away on a pointless endeavor, you might want to either shoot film or just use a big handlebar flash on a DSLR if you want the frontal-flash look.
Have you shot large-format before?? Might want to go to www.largeformatphotography.info and start reading. Also www.largeformatphotography.info/forum for the forum.
As to your question, unless you've got 5 figures to throw away on a pointless endeavor, you might want to either shoot film or just use a big handlebar flash on a DSLR if you want the frontal-flash look.
Particular
a.k.a. CNNY, disassembler
Using the Fuji Fuji instant films as mentioned, or just getting a box of tri-X or HP5 are your straightforward options. You may also want to throw some money at this kickstarter;
new55-film
For flash, you could pick up a Metz CT-1 hammerhead flash. I'm not sure if it will mount to the RF, but it comes with a bracket also. If you want the real press look, shooting flash bulbs is still an option;
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141176&highlight=esquire
new55-film
For flash, you could pick up a Metz CT-1 hammerhead flash. I'm not sure if it will mount to the RF, but it comes with a bracket also. If you want the real press look, shooting flash bulbs is still an option;
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141176&highlight=esquire
Nokton48
Veteran
I used to collect Speed Graphics and Graflexes, many years ago. I would pick up some 4x5" Tri-X or Ilford HP5+ as with large format generally you need all the speed you can get. Alot depends on whether you have a focal plane shutter (in the camera body) or a leaf shutter, that is in the lens between the elements. B&H or Freestyle are your best sources for large format film.
For flash, you could get a flashbulb unit and use that, or electronic flash. With electronic flash, the Vivitar 283 puts out 100 watt seconds, and is easy to find. It is a thyristor-type of flash, so the exposure is automatic. A bigger flash might be helpful, I personally prefer the Norman 200b, which puts out 200 watt seconds. That's about the maximum available in portable strobes.
Far as I know, nobody makes a digital back for a 4x5 format, unless you want to use a scanning-type back. Incredibly expensive. I would stick to film and scan the negs.
For flash, you could get a flashbulb unit and use that, or electronic flash. With electronic flash, the Vivitar 283 puts out 100 watt seconds, and is easy to find. It is a thyristor-type of flash, so the exposure is automatic. A bigger flash might be helpful, I personally prefer the Norman 200b, which puts out 200 watt seconds. That's about the maximum available in portable strobes.
Far as I know, nobody makes a digital back for a 4x5 format, unless you want to use a scanning-type back. Incredibly expensive. I would stick to film and scan the negs.
Nokton48
Veteran
B-9
Devin Bro
It wouldn't be extremely difficult to modify a back adapted for 4x5 (assuming your graflex has the graflok back system, not the standard ground glass spring back)
The big hurtle would be how to "wake up" the digital back to expect an exposure.
Alpa makes a basic camera for digital backs, but the also use an electronic pre-fire signal to wake the sensor and take the shot, I believe it is built into their proprietary shutter releases.
All in all, I can't see any reason for such a modification, when you can adapt just about any 645-66-67 SLR to take most digital backs. Lots of fuss for a seemingly obsolete camera system (graflex)
I deck d reccomendations for either an instant back or a few packs of b&w Milford to get you back onto the darkside. Don't forget you can also shoot positive papers, if you don't mind a very low ISO, easily developed and handled under a safelight, it may be a cheap alternative to getting that "press" look.
Good luck!
The big hurtle would be how to "wake up" the digital back to expect an exposure.
Alpa makes a basic camera for digital backs, but the also use an electronic pre-fire signal to wake the sensor and take the shot, I believe it is built into their proprietary shutter releases.
All in all, I can't see any reason for such a modification, when you can adapt just about any 645-66-67 SLR to take most digital backs. Lots of fuss for a seemingly obsolete camera system (graflex)
I deck d reccomendations for either an instant back or a few packs of b&w Milford to get you back onto the darkside. Don't forget you can also shoot positive papers, if you don't mind a very low ISO, easily developed and handled under a safelight, it may be a cheap alternative to getting that "press" look.
Good luck!
Kurt Krueger
Newbie
Thanks to all for your help! Keep them coming. I'm going to explore a lot of these possibilities.
I also realized that I should have mentioned a bit about myself. I'm not an amateur. I went to Art Center College of Design for photography/film. There I trained on 8x10 and 4x5 cameras. I still have my Super Cambo. But I dumped all of my darkroom equipment about 15 years ago (donated it to a school in NY) - and I never want to go back to all of that. I've been a professional photographer for over 45 years. I switched totally to digital in 2007 and now I won't work with anything else. (Except that I do play with toy cameras once in a while - just to experiment.) I owned a publishing company "Brazen Images" for 25 of those years. I've previously published 2 books of photography - and am currently working on a trilogy of "Brazen Images" books plus a special book called "The Book Of Amy".
I would lead you to my work online but it is ALL nude/erotic in nature - and I don't know how this site feels about that. (You can google my name and find my ModelMayhem and deviantART work. For some reason, tumblr blocks my newest work - but once you get to my deviantART site, just switch out "tumblr" for "deviantART" in the url - and you're there.)
Anyway... just so you know about me...
Thanks once again - and I'll definitely explore these possibilities!
Kurt
I also realized that I should have mentioned a bit about myself. I'm not an amateur. I went to Art Center College of Design for photography/film. There I trained on 8x10 and 4x5 cameras. I still have my Super Cambo. But I dumped all of my darkroom equipment about 15 years ago (donated it to a school in NY) - and I never want to go back to all of that. I've been a professional photographer for over 45 years. I switched totally to digital in 2007 and now I won't work with anything else. (Except that I do play with toy cameras once in a while - just to experiment.) I owned a publishing company "Brazen Images" for 25 of those years. I've previously published 2 books of photography - and am currently working on a trilogy of "Brazen Images" books plus a special book called "The Book Of Amy".
I would lead you to my work online but it is ALL nude/erotic in nature - and I don't know how this site feels about that. (You can google my name and find my ModelMayhem and deviantART work. For some reason, tumblr blocks my newest work - but once you get to my deviantART site, just switch out "tumblr" for "deviantART" in the url - and you're there.)
Anyway... just so you know about me...
Thanks once again - and I'll definitely explore these possibilities!
Kurt
Corran
Well-known
Hi Kurt,
I hope you were not offended about my comments about whether or not you have shot LF. I only ask because you seemed to be somewhat confused about how the flash would even work with the camera. There is also no such thing as a "digital flash." Flash is flash - it just might be designed to work with one specific brand of camera (though there are workarounds for that).
Regardless, to be explicit, there is no such thing at this time as a "4x5 digital back." The largest digital backs are not even a full 6x7 negative size. Even if you did put together some Frankencamera with one of the brand-new, largest sensor digital backs ($20,000 minimum), because of the smaller size of the sensor, the normal 127mm or 135mm lens that came with the camera would be a really long lens with regard to the Field of View. To use 35mm camera equivalents - you'd be shooting with something akin to a 100mm lens, and have little to no way to use shorter lenses with a normal field of view unless you removed the digital back, focused on the ground glass, then put it back, etc. Not optimal for portraits.
If you are serious about moving to a larger sensor digital, a dedicated camera system and back from Mamiya, Phase-One, Hasselblad, etc. is the way to go...though the Nikon D800 DSLR gives them all a run for the money anyway.
I hope you were not offended about my comments about whether or not you have shot LF. I only ask because you seemed to be somewhat confused about how the flash would even work with the camera. There is also no such thing as a "digital flash." Flash is flash - it just might be designed to work with one specific brand of camera (though there are workarounds for that).
Regardless, to be explicit, there is no such thing at this time as a "4x5 digital back." The largest digital backs are not even a full 6x7 negative size. Even if you did put together some Frankencamera with one of the brand-new, largest sensor digital backs ($20,000 minimum), because of the smaller size of the sensor, the normal 127mm or 135mm lens that came with the camera would be a really long lens with regard to the Field of View. To use 35mm camera equivalents - you'd be shooting with something akin to a 100mm lens, and have little to no way to use shorter lenses with a normal field of view unless you removed the digital back, focused on the ground glass, then put it back, etc. Not optimal for portraits.
If you are serious about moving to a larger sensor digital, a dedicated camera system and back from Mamiya, Phase-One, Hasselblad, etc. is the way to go...though the Nikon D800 DSLR gives them all a run for the money anyway.
Kurt Krueger
Newbie
No offense taken whatsoever. I didn't properly identify myself in my initial query.
I have a Hasselblad. It's film. Never use it. My workhorse is an old Nikon D200 which just never seems to die. I just don't have the money for the larger things mentioned - and I'm not really looking to switch anyway.
The whole key to my question is that a friend GAVE this RF to me - and he (and I) want to see what I can do with it. The RF has been my dream to own since the 1970s - and when one arrived on my doorstep as a total surprise to me, I was just floored. I want to get this thing producing as a thank you to my friend. Also... in "The Book Of Amy" which I mentioned above, I spent two weeks in a motel room with Amy (who is also a photographer) - and one thing led to another - and I ended up doing over a 1000 wild, wacky and high erotic nudes of her. They range from fine art to totally X-rated. In the course of this project, I also wanted to evoke as many different styles as I could muster. So I have done a ba-zillion PhotoShop tricks - but I also used a Holga, Polaroid SX-70, Fuji Instax - as well as a disposable CVS underwater camera! This is going to be like a 400 page book on only one girl - so I needed to get as much variety in there as I possible could. I think I accomplished that - though I'm still not done editing - two years later!
The RF showed up at my door after that shoot - and Amy had moved on - but those 10 days in a motel (and 3 back at my place) with her really broke me out of my mold of shooting the same old way for the last 4 decades. So it's really imperative that I get RF to produce something. I don't care how. And I'm not interested in other camera options. THIS camera must work. I'm looking for the look that only it can properly produce.
So far, the Polaroid idea seems to be the best option presented. I have already bookmarked that on Amazon. But as someone pointed out above, how will the Polaroid back "know" when to react? Hmmm...
And as to the flash, I was referring to it being connected to the camera in a digital manner (if you get what I mean). I mean, I have flash units - but how to get them to work with the RF is the question. The whole point of a RF is essentially to point and shoot like the old press photographers. Spontaneity is the key. I don't want to do a lot of setup.
I have a Hasselblad. It's film. Never use it. My workhorse is an old Nikon D200 which just never seems to die. I just don't have the money for the larger things mentioned - and I'm not really looking to switch anyway.
The whole key to my question is that a friend GAVE this RF to me - and he (and I) want to see what I can do with it. The RF has been my dream to own since the 1970s - and when one arrived on my doorstep as a total surprise to me, I was just floored. I want to get this thing producing as a thank you to my friend. Also... in "The Book Of Amy" which I mentioned above, I spent two weeks in a motel room with Amy (who is also a photographer) - and one thing led to another - and I ended up doing over a 1000 wild, wacky and high erotic nudes of her. They range from fine art to totally X-rated. In the course of this project, I also wanted to evoke as many different styles as I could muster. So I have done a ba-zillion PhotoShop tricks - but I also used a Holga, Polaroid SX-70, Fuji Instax - as well as a disposable CVS underwater camera! This is going to be like a 400 page book on only one girl - so I needed to get as much variety in there as I possible could. I think I accomplished that - though I'm still not done editing - two years later!
The RF showed up at my door after that shoot - and Amy had moved on - but those 10 days in a motel (and 3 back at my place) with her really broke me out of my mold of shooting the same old way for the last 4 decades. So it's really imperative that I get RF to produce something. I don't care how. And I'm not interested in other camera options. THIS camera must work. I'm looking for the look that only it can properly produce.
So far, the Polaroid idea seems to be the best option presented. I have already bookmarked that on Amazon. But as someone pointed out above, how will the Polaroid back "know" when to react? Hmmm...
And as to the flash, I was referring to it being connected to the camera in a digital manner (if you get what I mean). I mean, I have flash units - but how to get them to work with the RF is the question. The whole point of a RF is essentially to point and shoot like the old press photographers. Spontaneity is the key. I don't want to do a lot of setup.
Corran
Well-known
Okay well if you narrow down your effort to getting the camera working with instant film, there is definitely hope! I say instant, instead of Polaroid, because Polaroid is gone. The only currently available instant film on the market, other than some fringe products, is made by Fuji. What you want for your camera is either a Polaroid 405 or Fuji PA-145 Back. These backs can take the Fuji 100C packfilms (color) or 3000B (b&w). You happen to be coming in to this at a bad time because the 3000B film is being discontinued at the end of the year, sadly.
There is another type of instant film - "Instax" is the type, also made by Fuji - but don't buy that. It won't work in your camera without major modifications and work.
Now one thing about the Speed Graflex is, some of the backs will not take the instant film holder. Can you post an image of the back of the camera? Hopefully, you have a Graflok back, and you'll have no problems. If you have a spring back, you might have an issue - either the instant film holder won't fit, or if you are lucky, it'll be really, really tight and hard to get in and out. Furthermore, you need to check out the lens and specifically the shutter, and check if it is working. If so, use that, and sync your flash with a standard PC cord from the shutter, using X-sync. If you use wireless triggers, you can sync it right to the shutter as well. If you don't have a working shutter and are using the rear FP shutter, that's harder to get to work, but you might be able to cobble something together. That's honestly beyond my expertise as I always use the lens shutter (better sync speed).
You'll also want to check the rangefinder alignment, which can be a bugbear to adjust, even for the experienced tech! I have broken down and repaired/calibrated about 10 of these rangefinders so believe you me, it's not easy or fun...
So, about the instant film back - you slip that back into the camera, and remove the darkslide. Fire your shot. Pull the "tab," pull out the shot, and wait for it to develop. About 2-3 minutes later for the color image, you peel it apart. It's convenient, and yields a 3.25" x 4.25" image. I think you are confused when you said "how will the Polaroid back "know" when to react?" The issue discussed was a digital back taking the photo, not instant film. Just shoot the image after removing the darkslide.
I do a lot of instant film work. Not to toot my own horn, but for examples you might take a look at my blog. Here is one post that is mostly Fuji instant film photos:
http://valdostafilm.blogspot.com/2012/09/polaroid-photos-from-dragoncon-2012.html
Here is the camera I often use:
http://valdostafilm.blogspot.com/2011/12/polaroid-4x5-conversion.html
Feel free to ask me more questions if you need.
There is another type of instant film - "Instax" is the type, also made by Fuji - but don't buy that. It won't work in your camera without major modifications and work.
Now one thing about the Speed Graflex is, some of the backs will not take the instant film holder. Can you post an image of the back of the camera? Hopefully, you have a Graflok back, and you'll have no problems. If you have a spring back, you might have an issue - either the instant film holder won't fit, or if you are lucky, it'll be really, really tight and hard to get in and out. Furthermore, you need to check out the lens and specifically the shutter, and check if it is working. If so, use that, and sync your flash with a standard PC cord from the shutter, using X-sync. If you use wireless triggers, you can sync it right to the shutter as well. If you don't have a working shutter and are using the rear FP shutter, that's harder to get to work, but you might be able to cobble something together. That's honestly beyond my expertise as I always use the lens shutter (better sync speed).
You'll also want to check the rangefinder alignment, which can be a bugbear to adjust, even for the experienced tech! I have broken down and repaired/calibrated about 10 of these rangefinders so believe you me, it's not easy or fun...
So, about the instant film back - you slip that back into the camera, and remove the darkslide. Fire your shot. Pull the "tab," pull out the shot, and wait for it to develop. About 2-3 minutes later for the color image, you peel it apart. It's convenient, and yields a 3.25" x 4.25" image. I think you are confused when you said "how will the Polaroid back "know" when to react?" The issue discussed was a digital back taking the photo, not instant film. Just shoot the image after removing the darkslide.
I do a lot of instant film work. Not to toot my own horn, but for examples you might take a look at my blog. Here is one post that is mostly Fuji instant film photos:
http://valdostafilm.blogspot.com/2012/09/polaroid-photos-from-dragoncon-2012.html
Here is the camera I often use:
http://valdostafilm.blogspot.com/2011/12/polaroid-4x5-conversion.html
Feel free to ask me more questions if you need.
Kurt Krueger
Newbie
OK... so I'm looking at the camera now and one thing is clear. I need a manual! The shutter seems to work - but clearly I'm not following the proper procedures. Sometimes it opens - and other times not.
Also, we may be talking about the spring back. I can only pull it away from the body about an inch (maybe 2) - and only on the right side. I'll dig out my Super Cambo tomorrow and see if I can insert a film holder. I'll also see if I can get some pictures posted.
But the first thing is definitely a manual!
I'll check out your blogspots as well.
Also, we may be talking about the spring back. I can only pull it away from the body about an inch (maybe 2) - and only on the right side. I'll dig out my Super Cambo tomorrow and see if I can insert a film holder. I'll also see if I can get some pictures posted.
But the first thing is definitely a manual!
I'll check out your blogspots as well.
Corran
Well-known
Check here:
http://www.butkus.org/chinon/graflex/graflex_graflex_speed/graflex.htm
I'd send you a hard copy but I just gave away all the manuals I had to an intrepid student I sold a Speed Graphic to!
http://www.butkus.org/chinon/graflex/graflex_graflex_speed/graflex.htm
I'd send you a hard copy but I just gave away all the manuals I had to an intrepid student I sold a Speed Graphic to!
Kurt Krueger
Newbie
That's perfect! Thanks! It's best that I get familiar with the camera itself first before I dive into buying stuff. Gotta crawl before I walk. I'll send the pdf to Office Max to have them print it out. At 37 pages, I'll let them use THEIR toner. 
EdSawyer
Established
You can find older 4x5 scanning backs for relatively cheap money on ebay. (< $1000 sometimes). They will make a large image, but generally require it to be static (non -moving) and usually require tethering to a computer.
Any lens in shutter can trigger a modern flash, most have a PC connection to do so. The speed graphic also usually has a bi-post flash sync for the focal plane shutter, but it's really more like using "bulb" and firing the flash while the shutter is fully open.
-Ed
Any lens in shutter can trigger a modern flash, most have a PC connection to do so. The speed graphic also usually has a bi-post flash sync for the focal plane shutter, but it's really more like using "bulb" and firing the flash while the shutter is fully open.
-Ed
S
schaubild
Guest
Using a digital back on a Technika works fine for me. Not every day, but for special shots wiwhere I need the Cooke look.
Next step will be a mount that allows to move the digiback, so I can scan a bigger part of the image plane. Requires stable subjects and an easy stitch in Photoshop.
Next step will be a mount that allows to move the digiback, so I can scan a bigger part of the image plane. Requires stable subjects and an easy stitch in Photoshop.
