Stephen G
Well-known
So I had vaguely recalled reading about M8 behaving badly in cold weather (primary rapid battery discharge).
However, having bought in May, this is my first.. opportunity, to experience it myself.
Today with a battery @ 2/3, I saw my battery go to 0 in under 50 shots. Weather was around 35-40F.. and I was outdoors for nearly 3 hours straight.
I had taken it out at full charge at lower temperatures, but for shorter periods, and thus not run into this before.
Have previously had no desire to own a half case of any sort, but thought they might help with insulation..
Did a bit of reading on this site and did not see anything all that conclusive.
I have a thumbs-up so I think that limits me to the special cut Zhou cases, or the Leica one itself. Luigi & Luxecase don't look like they accomodate thumbs-up..
So cases - do they offer enough insulation to help in cold weather, or are they more an item for cosmetic/protective/ergonomic purposes?
However, having bought in May, this is my first.. opportunity, to experience it myself.
Today with a battery @ 2/3, I saw my battery go to 0 in under 50 shots. Weather was around 35-40F.. and I was outdoors for nearly 3 hours straight.
I had taken it out at full charge at lower temperatures, but for shorter periods, and thus not run into this before.
Have previously had no desire to own a half case of any sort, but thought they might help with insulation..
Did a bit of reading on this site and did not see anything all that conclusive.
I have a thumbs-up so I think that limits me to the special cut Zhou cases, or the Leica one itself. Luigi & Luxecase don't look like they accomodate thumbs-up..
So cases - do they offer enough insulation to help in cold weather, or are they more an item for cosmetic/protective/ergonomic purposes?
250swb
Well-known
Half cases have no ability to trap warm air, and they don't generate warmth, so they are going to be just as cold as the rest of the camera. The fact that they may feel warmer to the touch makes no difference to the ambient temperature. Your best bet in cold weather is not to chimp much, have the review set to the minimum time or off, start with a freshly charged battery, and keep a spare battery in a warm inner coat or trouser pocket.
Steve
Steve
cam
the need for speed
a half case does help a lot to get you more battery life in cold weather -- my main reason for having one.
and Luigi makes a case with a Thumbs-Up cut-out -- you just have to ask him... you also need to make sure you get a case that covers the screen -- it's like wearing a hat for a human, the place most vulnerable to lose heat.
and Luigi makes a case with a Thumbs-Up cut-out -- you just have to ask him... you also need to make sure you get a case that covers the screen -- it's like wearing a hat for a human, the place most vulnerable to lose heat.
Stephen G
Well-known
Interesting..
What case makers have cases available that cover the screen?
Seems that most of them have a cutout for it..
What case makers have cases available that cover the screen?
Seems that most of them have a cutout for it..
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
The half cases may feel warmer but as was mentioned earlier, they have no ability to generate or retain heat any more than the metal of the camera does. The camera doesn't feel windchill either as that is a human factor and unless the camera is moist, cold air passing by it will not reduce the temperature of it. If the half case were an effective thermal mass then it would have the potential of increasing battery life but as leather or plastic don't have enough mass in the form of a case, they do nothing to heat the camera. The cases may, however, give the impression that greater battery life is gained just because they make handling of the camera more pleasant and possibly more constant. If you handle that camera more, then it stays warmer.
Phil Forrest
Phil Forrest
ramosa
B&W
Per the screen, Luigi has cases without a cover--and with a button down cover.
bluepenguin
Established
The best way is to carry your camera under your coat.
Half case or no half case, doesn't different much if you are carrying it around cold weather.
Half case or no half case, doesn't different much if you are carrying it around cold weather.
250swb
Well-known
I think putting it under your coat is about the worst thing to do, an instant way to fog the viewfinder up, but then if you go out without a spare battery it may not matter if it gets fogged up.
Steve
ampguy
Veteran
I think for short outings, the half case helps, like for 30 minutes in sub freezing weather, but if you're going out for an hour or more with the M8, you need an insulated case, and a few charged batteries. Same with Lumixes I've owned - very short battery life in the cold. Canon's and Sony seem to do better in sub freezing weather.
Ronald M
Veteran
Do uninsulated gloves help much?
You need insulation or a heat source or keep the camera under the outer coat and bring it out as needed.
Than wrap it in something warm and leave it that way for 8 hours after to bring it in.
Condensation is hard on cameras, even worse on a digital.
You need insulation or a heat source or keep the camera under the outer coat and bring it out as needed.
Than wrap it in something warm and leave it that way for 8 hours after to bring it in.
Condensation is hard on cameras, even worse on a digital.
250swb
Well-known
Just how hot does this half case need to start out to last 30 minutes in sub zero temperatures? I'm just so baffled by some of the answers on this thread I wonder if anybody except myself and Phil_F_NM did physics at school.
Steve
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Vickko
Veteran
My M8's rangefinder lever arm froze up in the cold. Got a trip to Leica NJ just before the warranty ran out. Haven't been out in the cold yet (it hasn't gotten cold enough yet).
No issues with battery though, but I did tend to keep the body under my coat when not shooting.
Vick
No issues with battery though, but I did tend to keep the body under my coat when not shooting.
Vick
cam
the need for speed
i didn't study physics.
simply stating facts from my own personal use, using the M8 with and without a case in freezing weather...
for the record, i use the Luigi that has two button snaps to cover the screen... and my comment regarding battery life and covering the screen comes from experience using a case on my Epson with a snap-on on back that i was forever misplacing. i definitely got better battery life when the screen was covered.
i may not know physics, just relating my own personal experience.
ETA: i never go the coat route, btw, unless i am caught unexpectedly in the rain... i'm usually more concerned about my fingers freezing off when it gets that cold.
sig
Well-known
I think cam is correct, leather will insulate to some degree, before you go out the camera is warm and will stay warmer longer when it is covered in a half case.
ampguy
Veteran
well
well
I recommend starting with about 293 deg Kelvin.
As for clothing, I wear 4 light layers - t-shirt, button up shirt, hoodie, then windbreaker with hood.
This is quite comfortable down to about -10 deg F as long as you come back in before 20-30 minutes. I use various insulated cases for the camera when it's not out for shooting, and, don't use gloves. When the fingers get a bit cool, then I know it's time to head in.
It's nice to photograph when it is this cold. All particles are moving slower and the sound of the outdoors is different. Also, the M8 sensor stays nice and cool, optimized for capturing massively artful landscape compositions.
But all of this can only be guaranteed, when the M8 is encased in a tight fitting Zhou half-case with a fresh battery in it...
well
I recommend starting with about 293 deg Kelvin.
As for clothing, I wear 4 light layers - t-shirt, button up shirt, hoodie, then windbreaker with hood.
This is quite comfortable down to about -10 deg F as long as you come back in before 20-30 minutes. I use various insulated cases for the camera when it's not out for shooting, and, don't use gloves. When the fingers get a bit cool, then I know it's time to head in.
It's nice to photograph when it is this cold. All particles are moving slower and the sound of the outdoors is different. Also, the M8 sensor stays nice and cool, optimized for capturing massively artful landscape compositions.
But all of this can only be guaranteed, when the M8 is encased in a tight fitting Zhou half-case with a fresh battery in it...
antiquark
Derek Ross
Get a shoulder bag like this, keep the camera in it as much as possible (remove it only to take shots). The padding in these bags make them well insulated. Maybe add a plastic bottle of water to radiate heat. Be careful with those disposable hand warmer packs, some of them generate water vapor. (Or so I've heard).
http://products.lowepro.com/product/Rezo-120-AW,2004,20.htm
http://products.lowepro.com/product/Rezo-120-AW,2004,20.htm
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Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
I don't mean to act like a troll but...
I think that lengthened battery life with a case is in one's head.
Unless the camera starts piping hot, the case is not going to insulate it any more than if it starts at the outside ambient temperature.
You can go try this with a cup of coffee on the next cold day with a digital thermometer. Heat loss will be at a logarithmic rate with regards to a fluid.
Since your camera is neither liquid nor gas the heat loss from the ~70 inside your house to the ambient temperature outside is going to be a steep linear one.
If we were to measure heat loss from your camera using a wet-bulb technique, we'd see that the evaporating moisture carries heat away much quicker, but the Leica digital cameras do not measure dew point depression well, so that test is not recommended.
With regard to metal objects and radiation of energy, they sit at an absolute temperature and insulation does not affect them very much unless it is a lot of insulation. If this weren't the case, Mr. Zhou would be making engine cases for people who live in cold environments where heaters need to be applied to auto engines in order for them to start reliably.
Another experiment you could try is to go fight a fire with a metallic backed watch on your wrist. The watch will collect heat like an antenna while your body is insulated from the fire. Eventually, the watch will burn your wrist (I know, I had this happen in a shipboard fire in the Navy).
Holding a mercury thermometer in the sun with an ambient temperature of -70 will still cause the thermometer the rupture because it does not feel nor does it know that it is cold outside.
Ah! So maybe the case and camera were used outside on a cold day with a good amount of sun. That will keep the camera warmer.
The case can only provide a very limited thermal mass to effectively heat the camera. I'm willing to wager that the camera would act like a heat sink to the case and the covering would take the camera's temperature within seconds.
So, the cases provide a placebo effect for battery life because there is no way outside of active heating of the case itself (now there's an idea) that it provides enough mass and insulates sufficiently to extend battery life.
Phil Forrest
(former US Navy meteorologist)
I think that lengthened battery life with a case is in one's head.
Unless the camera starts piping hot, the case is not going to insulate it any more than if it starts at the outside ambient temperature.
You can go try this with a cup of coffee on the next cold day with a digital thermometer. Heat loss will be at a logarithmic rate with regards to a fluid.
Since your camera is neither liquid nor gas the heat loss from the ~70 inside your house to the ambient temperature outside is going to be a steep linear one.
If we were to measure heat loss from your camera using a wet-bulb technique, we'd see that the evaporating moisture carries heat away much quicker, but the Leica digital cameras do not measure dew point depression well, so that test is not recommended.
With regard to metal objects and radiation of energy, they sit at an absolute temperature and insulation does not affect them very much unless it is a lot of insulation. If this weren't the case, Mr. Zhou would be making engine cases for people who live in cold environments where heaters need to be applied to auto engines in order for them to start reliably.
Another experiment you could try is to go fight a fire with a metallic backed watch on your wrist. The watch will collect heat like an antenna while your body is insulated from the fire. Eventually, the watch will burn your wrist (I know, I had this happen in a shipboard fire in the Navy).
Holding a mercury thermometer in the sun with an ambient temperature of -70 will still cause the thermometer the rupture because it does not feel nor does it know that it is cold outside.
Ah! So maybe the case and camera were used outside on a cold day with a good amount of sun. That will keep the camera warmer.
The case can only provide a very limited thermal mass to effectively heat the camera. I'm willing to wager that the camera would act like a heat sink to the case and the covering would take the camera's temperature within seconds.
So, the cases provide a placebo effect for battery life because there is no way outside of active heating of the case itself (now there's an idea) that it provides enough mass and insulates sufficiently to extend battery life.
Phil Forrest
(former US Navy meteorologist)
Stephen G
Well-known
Ah, so it's time for me to start selling half cases with a pocket in the back for chemical hand warmer inserts?
antiquark
Derek Ross
Another thing: be wary of advice from amateur thermodynamicists! 
beewee
Member
I've taken the M8.2 out for snowshoeing/hiking in sub-zero (Celcius) weather at least 10 times this year. In all cases, the camera was left exposed to the elements for extended periods (4-10hrs). The coldest of which was -30C and my observations are as follows:
- The Li-ion batteries will discharge slowly over time even when not placed in a camera. It's therefore best to "top-up" your battery just before you head out since this little bit of "top-up" will greatly increase your number of shots per battery. (Think 150-200 vs 80 shots in temperatures of -10C or below.)
- At -30C, it really doesn't make much of a difference whether you have the camera half covered with leather (or neoprene for that matter) or not. The body is made of metal and it will conduct heat away from the battery compartment to parts of the camera that is exposed top just as quickly.
- When you are not shooting, it's best to shut off the camera completely to avoid draining the precious energy from your batteries. This will go a LONG way to improving shots/charge in cold climates.
- The only practical thing to do is to have several batteries. One in the camera plus you spares in an inner jacket pocket close to the body.
- As far as handling is concerned, having a soft-release and the Thumbs-Up will make a big difference when using the camera with thick winter mitts.
- The Li-ion batteries will discharge slowly over time even when not placed in a camera. It's therefore best to "top-up" your battery just before you head out since this little bit of "top-up" will greatly increase your number of shots per battery. (Think 150-200 vs 80 shots in temperatures of -10C or below.)
- At -30C, it really doesn't make much of a difference whether you have the camera half covered with leather (or neoprene for that matter) or not. The body is made of metal and it will conduct heat away from the battery compartment to parts of the camera that is exposed top just as quickly.
- When you are not shooting, it's best to shut off the camera completely to avoid draining the precious energy from your batteries. This will go a LONG way to improving shots/charge in cold climates.
- The only practical thing to do is to have several batteries. One in the camera plus you spares in an inner jacket pocket close to the body.
- As far as handling is concerned, having a soft-release and the Thumbs-Up will make a big difference when using the camera with thick winter mitts.