Does Leica realize?

Pavel+

Pavel+

Established
Local time
3:45 PM
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
159
I sort of hate posting this musing of mine but as a fan of the original gestalt of the Leica ... does Leica realize that Panasonic is stealing the soul of Leica with their latest products? Rangefinders need to evolve in the digital age. Panasonic, unfettered by old think, seems to realize this and are now the torch bearers of the Leica heritage and ideals. It makes me sad, because it makes me give up on the old idea that Leica still is ... well ... Leica. :(

Flame away.
 
The fondlers can't keep the name alive by themselves. As people go more and more to digital there'll be enough M film Leicas floating around the used market for quite awhile. The Bessas and the Zeiss are a bit noisy but have a higher synch speed which is important to a substantial segment of the market, more important than silky smooth advance and fantasic finish.

http://thepriceofsilver.blogspot.com
 
[FONT=&quot]I’d say, not so fast. Let’s wait till the 9th to at least see what leica’s come up with.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A FFM9 18mp m-mount dRF camera that will produce stellar images and inspire confidence through its workmanship and its reliability, is about to be made available to the buying public come Wed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My hope is that they also make a dCL RF with an aps-c sensor. A real RF on a compact m-mount body.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Pani GF1 and the Oly EP1 are fine cameras. I may even buy one of those GF1’s.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If Leica comes out with a compact dCL RF, those other cameras will be ‘just’ digicams with funny rf-esque styling.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Leica has a big day coming up, and I hope that they knock the cover off the ball! :D[/FONT]
 
I agree with Doug, Pavel - wait a few more days and see if the hype is worth it. Personally, I don't think that Panny "is stealing the soul of Leica" at this time as they don't have a drf in their product line. I'd be more akin to think that with a company like Cosina/Zeiss should they come up with a drf in the future.
 
Some consumer P&S is not stealing Leica`s territory. Their territory is the M series.

There never was and never will a serious competitor in that area. CV products are not competitors as they do not represent top quality or long term value. They are just cameras.

The market is shrinking and price is going up. $6000+ is a lot to invest in a camera with a short life. You can say it will work long term, but parts will become a problem because of the low volumn and the fact Leica does not make the electronics. Look at DMR and repairability. Nobody wants to make a small number of sensors at a price Leica can afford so Leica can make a small series of DMR. Leica can`t afford a large batch. So there you are. Batteries will present the very same issue. Let me see you buy an M8 battery in 10 years.

Then there is the problem of who can work on these cameras. I doubt the usual sources are willing to tackle more than a RF adjustment. You are now at Leicas mercy.
Look at what they charge for a bit of water spray damage. Your $6000 has become a throw away P&S. I understand their risk and why they have to charge this much, but still I will not toss out $6000.

If you are rich enough to afford this or an employer supplies the camera, do get one because they will be superb picture takers. NOBODY`s lenses image like Leica but some serious competitors are out there. Some might even like Zeiss as equaly well, but there are no fast lenses if that is your thing. Then it comes down to who can afford $4000 lenses and is willing to put up with their size.

Film Leicas were the end of the line. Their sales are currently dismally low. I would like to know how the M9 sells. I hope it sells 200,000 units and Leica makes a profit. I also hope the S2 succeeds. I don`t know if todays economics will allow sufficient penetration into that smaller market. Others are going broke who are already there. Notice the price is already higher. This reflects a lower than expected volumn and the fact there are lower number units to absorb development and tooling costs. We will see.
 
I enjoy all my Leicas, including my M bodies, of which I have seven; my Barnacks (3) my R5 and R6; and my "Leicasonics." I have the Digilux 1 and 2, and the D-Lux 3 and 4. They all seem to have their uses, and are all superb, each in its own way. This is not the first time Leica has recognized that another company could serve as a resource for them. Think of the history of collaboration with Minolta, Sigma, Schneider, and Taylor, Taylor and Hobson.

It's a strength to accept help, not a weakness.

Edit: I forgot Angenieaux! And there was another company, a Japanese one . . . Kyocera.
 
The M8 sold less than 20,000 units over several years, I believe, in a much better economic environment and at a likely lower price. I think 200,000 units is wishful thinking. :)
 
I don't think the OP's post is a troll at all. It is likely cameras like the Pany G1 that can use adapted Leica lenses at less than $1,000 has satisfied the urge of a lot of folks for a digital platform for those lenses. Some of those people might have stretched the budget to buy a DRF from Leica if alternatives hadn't come along. Is it the same "experience"? No, but if you can save four or five thousand dollars, it might be good enough.
 
Leica seems content to market to the fondlers and amateurs allured by the Leica name (Panny rebadges). As I've said before, I feel Leica is resting on it's laurels and content with milking as much money as they can out of the people with enough money to buy their new products.

$200 for a rewind crank. That's half the cost of my m2. No Thanks, I'd sooner source someone to fabricate a small run for me then give Leica $200 for that.

I'm more than fine with buying used Leica gear from the time my father was my age or younger, but Leica's current incarnation seems to be run by people more concerned by the bottom line than their clientele.
 
I crawl back here with trepidation, a mild hangover and a new admonishion ... never, that is ... never ... post when you have had too much beer to drink!

Yeah, I don't know where it swelled up from but I logged in here after looking at all the swooning over the new soon to be released Panasonic GF1 mad. (GF1 ... is that Girl Friend number one? :D) I will be buying one.

I don't think I made my point very well. My sympathies are with Leica. And it is not frustration with the M9, nor the S2 per say but frustration that Leica does not seem to be moving with enough speed in their key area of the barnack principle .... and own that whole idea as they once did. Yes, work on the M9. That is the retro way and it is important. Yes work on the S2 and embed quality and high end in the minds and bags of pros.

But freak it .... why is nothing creative and NEW like the GF1 coming out of Solms? Panasonic is not simply coming out with a popular model which will make them some money. No. They are sowing mindshare. Leica's mindshare. Do the new generation know even properly the Leica name and the legacy? I don't think so, not in any meaningful way. You can't just continue an old tradition.Continue it as well, but cover the new barnack ways as well. This new 4/3 model is the modern Leica heritage adapted well to todays world. It is almost as if someone stole Leica's show as they focus only on the known.

But .... I'm hopeful for the M9. I want it to be a refined M8. It won't be enough though ... compared to what could have been if everyone was buzzing about the 4/3 LEICA GF1.

It could've been, should've been .... better be!


But ... no more beer! :)
 
The question of most benefit is "how many new customers are being drawn into the Leica orbit via .... oh wait ...there is nothing." :(
 
Leica continues to crank out the best 135 format lenses (a lot of) money can buy. You buy a Leica lens and it gives decades of service. Great optics, shutter and a light tight box to put your film (sensor) in. No gimmicks. This to me it the soul of Leica.
 
Pavel+ said:
The question of most benefit is "how many new customers are being drawn into the Leica orbit via .... oh wait ...there is nothing." :(
Click to expand...

Show me another 21/1.4 or another apo-chromatic, aspheric, floating element 50/1.4 and I agree. Enough creativity in my book. Not that I ever will buy either. I like film and classic lenses.
 
35mmdelux said:
Sure, Lest they go totally bust.
Click to expand...



I don't think Leica got to where they are by pricing their goods so far out of reach of most consumers or by rebadging other makers' goods as their own.

I'm trying to find the figures again, but from what I recall, The M8/M8.2 are doing worse than the M5 did, which almost killed Leica. You could probably double the number of m8's when comparing to the m5 though to factor in the absurd price of a brand new m8 and inflation, then the 'not hand made/assembled' tax which drives up the price as well.
 
Mephiloco said:
I don't think Leica got to where they are by pricing their goods so far out of reach of most consumers or by rebadging other makers' goods as their own.

I'm trying to find the figures again, but from what I recall, The M8/M8.2 are doing worse than the M5 did, which almost killed Leica. You could probably double the number of m8's when comparing to the m5 though to factor in the absurd price of a brand new m8 and inflation, then the 'not hand made/assembled' tax which drives up the price as well.
Click to expand...

How much of this is based on surmise and wishful thinking, and how much on knowledge of the market and Leica sales?

I don't think it unreasonable to assume that Leica knows more about their market than I do. Nor would I count myself a complete ignoramus in the market after more than a quarter of a century as a photographic author or journalist. Ignoramus, quite possibly. Complete ignoramus, no.

Cheers,

R.
 
Pavel+ said:
...Leica does not seem to be moving with enough speed in their key area of the barnack principle...
Click to expand...

How do we know that really is Leica's "key area"?

Leica's key area is turning a profit and staying in business. They've chosen to sell relatively few products that each carry a high price and, presumably, a large individual profit margin. Even if they did start selling hundreds of thousands of digital RF's at, say, an $800 price point, that were equal in quality to any previous Leica model, few here would believe that simply because of the price. Leica's options are restricted because the cognoscenti expect Leica cameras to be made in one place by one method.

Besides, why should Leica make cheaper cameras when Panasonic does that and pays Leica for the name?
 
You know, if this new X1 is real, or at least close - then I underestimated Leica very, very much. And you know what .... I don't mind one bit! :)

Now I've got my fingers crossed. The fixed lens is a bit of a disapointment, but if it is the right package ... not so bad neither.

Wednesday just seems to have gotten a bit further away all of a sudden!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom