Does this LTM adapter look sketchy?

JoshRoot

The NW will rise again.
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I need a couple LTM-M adapters. And of course, being the cheapskate I am, I have found the cheapest priced adapters possible.

However, a real easy to waste your careful focusing is to have a badly made adapter. So can someone check this ebay ad out and tell me if it looks likes the guy doesn't know what he's talking about (a sign that these adapters might be junk). He has good feedback, but also says weird things like: "You can still use the the lens distance scale as well as the focusing to infinity." But the price is right, even with the overblown shipping cost. Almost half of what generic adapters cost at B&H.

Ebay Adapter Here

I should probably just order one and see what happens.
 
JoshRoot said:
I need a couple LTM-M adapters. And of course, being the cheapskate I am, I have found the cheapest priced adapters possible.

However, a real easy to waste your careful focusing is to have a badly made adapter. So can someone check this ebay ad out and tell me if it looks likes the guy doesn't know what he's talking about (a sign that these adapters might be junk). He has good feedback, but also says weird things like: "You can still use the the lens distance scale as well as the focusing to infinity." But the price is right, even with the overblown shipping cost. Almost half of what generic adapters cost at B&H.

Ebay Adapter Here

I should probably just order one and see what happens.

It's impossible to tell just by looking but the example illustrated looks to be OK and bronze/chrome should be durable enough. While $19 is a good price for a LTM -to-Leica M-mount adapter, the cost of shipping is excessive IMO. The seller is improving his bottom line profit with excess shipping charges.

Even so, $26 for a quality adapter is a good deal.

Walker
 
this is one of the generic adapters that will not bring
up the framelines according to the used focal length.
perfectly ok, if you can select your framelines manually
or use aux finders...
 
He's correct about the focusing to infinity and the distance scale being correct -- these are characteristics of ALL screw-to-M adapters. The M body was designed to be 1mm thinner than the screw body, and a proper adapter adds back this 1mm (actually the usual nominal thickness is about 0.97 or 0.98mm, to allow a little mounting clearance) so adding the adapter makes the lens work exactly the same on an M body as it did on a screw body.

Doxx's point about these being generic adapters that don't key the framelines is well-taken, though; that's probably one reason these are inexpensive, as it eliminates one step in precision machining. Of course, that's only significant if you want to use the adapter on a body with auto frameline selection (Leica, Zeiss-Ikon, Minolta) -- the Voigtlander bodies have manually selected framelines, so there'd be no disadvantage in using a generic adapter on those.

However, a warning: There's no way to tell by looking whether or not these adapters are actually accurately made. I've gotten several third-party adapters that are too thick and don't allow the lens to focus to infinity; they'll also cause incorrect rangefinder coupling at closer distances, for all lenses other than 50s. (The extra thickness of the adapter causes the lens to be focused at a different distance than the rangefinder indicates.)

Now when I buy adapters, I always check them with a caliper to make sure they're the correct thickness. As noted above, genuine Leitz adapters are always 0.97mm to 0.98mm thick at the mounting surface; I've had independent adapters that were as much as 1.03mm thick, which is 'WAY off!

If you buy some of these inexpensive adapters, I'd suggest you do the same; don't be surprised if there's considerable variation from one to the next. (I believe the biggest source of this variation is the thickness of the chrome plating. Leitz and some of the independent makers left the rear mounting face un-plated, then machined it to exactly the correct thickness; there are also good adapters that have chrome on the rear face, but evidently they control the plating well enough to build up consistent thickness.)
 
I saw these as well. I resisted buying one. They look similar to some made in China, and I suspect this guy imported them. With 1,000 available, he better get someone to buy one and speak up for them!

Why not tell him you'll evaluate it, post the review, and people will flock to him to buy them if they are as good as he claims.
 
I am aware of the frameline issue.

However, as an R-D1 user, it doesn't really apply to me.

The thickness issue was more to what I was refering. His awkward wording in the description made me wonder what the quality would be. Since it made the seller sound like someone who didn't know much about RF's.

At least I would have worded it differently.

I wonder how much different these are than the $40 generic ones that B&H sells.
 
jlw said:
He's correct about the focusing to infinity and the distance scale being correct -- these are characteristics of ALL screw-to-M adapters. The M body was designed to be 1mm thinner than the screw body, and a proper adapter adds back this 1mm (actually the usual nominal thickness is about 0.97 or 0.98mm, to allow a little mounting clearance) so adding the adapter makes the lens work exactly the same on an M body as it did on a screw body.

Doxx's point about these being generic adapters that don't key the framelines is well-taken, though; that's probably one reason these are inexpensive, as it eliminates one step in precision machining. Of course, that's only significant if you want to use the adapter on a body with auto frameline selection (Leica, Zeiss-Ikon, Minolta) -- the Voigtlander bodies have manually selected framelines, so there'd be no disadvantage in using a generic adapter on those.

However, a warning: There's no way to tell by looking whether or not these adapters are actually accurately made. I've gotten several third-party adapters that are too thick and don't allow the lens to focus to infinity; they'll also cause incorrect rangefinder coupling at closer distances, for all lenses other than 50s. (The extra thickness of the adapter causes the lens to be focused at a different distance than the rangefinder indicates.)

Now when I buy adapters, I always check them with a caliper to make sure they're the correct thickness. As noted above, genuine Leitz adapters are always 0.97mm to 0.98mm thick at the mounting surface; I've had independent adapters that were as much as 1.03mm thick, which is 'WAY off!

If you buy some of these inexpensive adapters, I'd suggest you do the same; don't be surprised if there's considerable variation from one to the next. (I believe the biggest source of this variation is the thickness of the chrome plating. Leitz and some of the independent makers left the rear mounting face un-plated, then machined it to exactly the correct thickness; there are also good adapters that have chrome on the rear face, but evidently they control the plating well enough to build up consistent thickness.)

Great insight, thanks a lot.

Regarding plating, they should only be 1~3 micrometer, but that's for the watch industry, so maybe it is not as important as the thickness of the metal...

Read on some DIY large format website stating that, the mount register should be +/- 0.007mm, is it true? In the case of using adapters, we have two variables, the camera mount, then the thickness of the adapters...

Cheers




Will
 
More about adapters [warning: long!]

More about adapters [warning: long!]

Will said:
Great insight, thanks a lot.

Regarding plating, they should only be 1~3 micrometer, but that's for the watch industry, so maybe it is not as important as the thickness of the metal...

My thinking is that if the metal is already on the thick end of the tolerance band, plating on top of it will only make the situation worse. (Note that I've never gotten a too-thin adapter, only too-thick ones, so I suspect that too-thick is the more common error.)

It seems to me that it would be more accurate to plate the adapter, then mill the rear mounting face to the proper final thickness. I believe this is how the Leitz-branded adapters were made. However, I have had some good adapters with plating on the rear face, so as you say, it shouldn't be a problem if the process is well-controlled. I'm just more suspicious of adapters with plating on the back, as it suggests at least the RISK of a short-cut manufacturing process.

Read on some DIY large format website stating that, the mount register should be +/- 0.007mm, is it true? In the case of using adapters, we have two variables, the camera mount, then the thickness of the adapters...Will

I don't know exactly where they would have gotten that figure, although it doesn't sound implausible. (I have to wonder how many large-format film holders really locate the film surface within 0.007mm, though!)

My problem with it is that the equipment I have only reads out to the nearest 0.01mm -- so even if more precision would theoretically be desirable, in practice there's no way to get there!

All I'm really trying to do by measuring is separate bad adapters from good ones, and for this purpose a measurement to the nearest 0.01mm seems to be close enough. The worst adapter I ever got (1.03mm thick) was off enough that I could see the difference in the R-D 1 rangefinder: a lens that focused to infinity with a known-good adapter would show a rangefinder image that was slightly "off" with the bad adapter.

However, other adapters that were less drastically inaccurate did not show an apparent difference in infinity focus via the rangefinder -- but still created problems with "near-focusing" when used with long lenses (i.e., the lens' actual focus plane would be closer than the rangefinder indicated.) I started measuring adapters to find a way of detecting these. Before I started doing this, I wasted a lot of time and effort thinking that my near-focusing problems indicated that my R-D 1's rangefinder was out of calibration -- when in fact all along the problem was out-of-tolerance adapters!

Incidentally, one subtlety about adapter thickness is that it will have NO effect on close-distance focus accuracy when a 50mm lens is used. This is because the rangefinder's coupling mechanism is based on the distance a 50mm lens moves outward as you focus it closer. If you fit a too-thick adapter, the lens won't quite focus to infinity -- but for close distances focusing via rangefinder WILL be accurate. The extra thickness of the adapter will displace the RF coupling cam forward by the same amount as the optics, so the correct relationship between lens extension and RF-cam extension is maintained. Unless you closely scrutinize pictures taken at the infinity distance setting, you may not even realize the adapter is out of whack.

When you mount a shorter or longer lens, though, an out-of-tolerance adapter will produce added problems. Compared to a 50mm lens, these lenses require different amounts of extension to focus to the same close distance: a longer lens requires more extension, while a wider lens requires less. Such lenses contain a mechanism that "translates" the amount of lens extension required to focus at a particular distance to the amount of rangefinder-cam extension that a 50mm lens would require to focus at the same distance.

If your adapter is too thick or too thin, this relationship is thrown off -- the cam compensates for how much the thickness change would affect a 50mm lens, but the actual focus distance changes by a different amount. Confusing!
 
jlw said:
I don't know exactly where they would have gotten that figure, although it doesn't sound implausible. (I have to wonder how many large-format film holders really locate the film surface within 0.007mm, though!)

My problem with it is that the equipment I have only reads out to the nearest 0.01mm -- so even if more precision would theoretically be desirable, in practice there's no way to get there!

All I'm really trying to do by measuring is separate bad adapters from good ones, and for this purpose a measurement to the nearest 0.01mm seems to be close enough. The worst adapter I ever got (1.03mm thick) was off enough that I could see the difference in the R-D 1 rangefinder: a lens that focused to infinity with a known-good adapter would show a rangefinder image that was slightly "off" with the bad adapter.

Hi JLW,

Aircraft metal parts only goes to 0.01mm, and the metal frame in Toshiba LCD TV goes to 0.005mm, (QC but 3D lazer scanning etc, friend used to work for an OEM manufacturer, let's not get into that...), anymore is super human effort, I think you are safe... 😀

Regarding mis-foucsing due to extra thickness, I think you can use a film camera, open the back, and sticky-tape a piece of forst glass onto the film rails and compare it with the image from the film finder. People do that on SLR (read that for adjusting a Pentacon Six)

jlw said:
Incidentally, one subtlety about adapter thickness is that it will have NO effect on close-distance focus accuracy when a 50mm lens is used. This is because the rangefinder's coupling mechanism is based on the distance a 50mm lens moves outward as you focus it closer. If you fit a too-thick adapter, the lens won't quite focus to infinity -- but for close distances focusing via rangefinder WILL be accurate. The extra thickness of the adapter will displace the RF coupling cam forward by the same amount as the optics, so the correct relationship between lens extension and RF-cam extension is maintained. Unless you closely scrutinize pictures taken at the infinity distance setting, you may not even realize the adapter is out of whack.

Check this webpage:

http://fine.tok2.com/home/mountmagic/mount_adapter/mountadapter_impressions.html

The japanese photographer stack adapters (contax to LTM, LTM to M; Macro-Switar to LTM Adapter, LTM to M, etc), not sure how he find his adapters, but I think using good adapters do make a different.

I stacks adapters too, but I guess I accepted the fact that when you play around like this, something got to give, and I have yet to shoot the Switar wide-open. (Pictures in this post don't show it...)

My next project will involve one of those rangefinder coupled adapter and something else, will get it post when I got all the parts.

Regarding none standard lenses, let's chat tomorrow (4:19am Hong Kong Time)...

Cheers





Will
 
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