sf
Veteran
I intend to cease having my film developed at labs - because they charge hideous amounts for what costs little do. And because Ivey managed to blow many of my 20 rolls with weird developing marks that I have never seen before - but which are not the work of X-rays or my camera. I shouldn't say "blow" but merely that they managed to leave marks over pretty much all of the pics. Thank God for photoshop.
If I want to shoot C-41 and B&W . . . . Particularly Ilford B&W and Fuji NPZ800, what do I need? And as far as developers are concerned, what are the best developers for someone who knows little about developing? All I know is how to print. I have never done any film developing myself. I really want to shoot PanF and delta 3200, and I'd like the PanF to be as smooth as possible. I will be shooting the NPZ at 500, because I like the look of Doug's stuff, and because my 800 looked a little flat, a little low saturation.
If I want to shoot C-41 and B&W . . . . Particularly Ilford B&W and Fuji NPZ800, what do I need? And as far as developers are concerned, what are the best developers for someone who knows little about developing? All I know is how to print. I have never done any film developing myself. I really want to shoot PanF and delta 3200, and I'd like the PanF to be as smooth as possible. I will be shooting the NPZ at 500, because I like the look of Doug's stuff, and because my 800 looked a little flat, a little low saturation.
FrankS
Registered User
You'll need a black changing bag (or a totally dark room) and a film developing tank with reels to hold the film. You have a choice of plastic or steel reels and tanks.
Film development is like following an easy recipe. You need a one shot liquid developer for ease, fixer (aka hypo), and hypo clear. Just 3 chemicals. You measure amounts for dilution, follow an agitation protocol, measure and adjust temperature, and keep track of time.
Bob's your uncle!
Film development is like following an easy recipe. You need a one shot liquid developer for ease, fixer (aka hypo), and hypo clear. Just 3 chemicals. You measure amounts for dilution, follow an agitation protocol, measure and adjust temperature, and keep track of time.
Bob's your uncle!
peterc
Heretic
B&W is as Frank says.
C41 requires a little more work than conventional B&W. What I did for C41 was find a local lab that'll run my roll through the machine and give me my film strip. All I have to do is bring the operator a coffee.
Peter
C41 requires a little more work than conventional B&W. What I did for C41 was find a local lab that'll run my roll through the machine and give me my film strip. All I have to do is bring the operator a coffee.
Peter
FrankS
Registered User
I'd do the same. Wouldn't bother with home processing c-41. When doing B+W you have some control over the final result by choosing which developer to use and to what degree to develop the film. (normal, push, pull) With colour developing, you are simply duplicating a machine, there's only one right way.
sf
Veteran
yeah, but I am looking mainly to save money . . . it must save money, right? I mean, right now I am spending $10 a roll to develop my B&W 220 and $6.50 for 120. About 2.5x the cost in Los Angeles. Seattle is hard on photographers.
Maybe I will just let color go to the lab, then. Pity. I hate paying them that aweful price.
I always liked B&W better anyway.
Maybe I will just let color go to the lab, then. Pity. I hate paying them that aweful price.
I always liked B&W better anyway.
FrankS
Registered User
I switched from colour transparencies to B+W because of the cost, now I love B+W!
paulfitz
Established
Shutterflower - here's my method:
Changing bag, Patterson 3 reel and 2 reel tanks, kodak film extractor. For developers you can use Ilfosol-S or DDX - the Ilfolsol I find kind of like Xtol. Rodinal requires an accurate measuring cup for dilutions, and is great if you can find it or a clone.
Pull the leaders out of the cassettes if necessary in the light, and then partially load them on the plastic reels. The plastics reels are easier in my opionion, but I grew up on stainless. You can pull through about the same amount of film in the light as when loading the camera. Put it all in the changing bag and then load. Put some scissors in the bag too, in case you need to cut the film end off the cassette. I use bulk load plastics for all my black and white, so I just unscrew the caps.
I use Kodak indicator stop bath and Kodakfix for the fixer, and if you want smooth, use the ilfosol or mix up some Kodak Xtol. Kodak sells a special 5 liter bottle to handle the big size. Xtol 1:3 with fine grain films gives almost grainless negs, but a little low contrast. They scan great though. These chemicals come in liquid form, just dilute to use. Mixing fixer from dry chemicals is a total pain.
Presoak the film with water - always do that - it will eliminate 95% of the processing marks, since the emulsion will already be swelled - agitate in the prewash. With two tanks, and the right staggering I can get 5 rolls processed (1 3 roll, 1 2 roll tank) in 30 minutes. Permawash is your friend for reducing washing time and saving water - it's archival as well.
Clothespins, hanger and dust free shower work for drying. Use photo-flo at 1:200 with distilled water for final rinse, then split the reels open and the film comes out easily.
Using the liquid developers that come premixed is easiest. If you really get into it, you will have to mix dry chemicals like Diafine, acufine, xtol or d-76.
When you process your own black and white film, given the huge gamut of film types and developer combinations, it will seem like you go from black and white to color with all the new "tools" in your photo pallet.
Good luck!
Changing bag, Patterson 3 reel and 2 reel tanks, kodak film extractor. For developers you can use Ilfosol-S or DDX - the Ilfolsol I find kind of like Xtol. Rodinal requires an accurate measuring cup for dilutions, and is great if you can find it or a clone.
Pull the leaders out of the cassettes if necessary in the light, and then partially load them on the plastic reels. The plastics reels are easier in my opionion, but I grew up on stainless. You can pull through about the same amount of film in the light as when loading the camera. Put it all in the changing bag and then load. Put some scissors in the bag too, in case you need to cut the film end off the cassette. I use bulk load plastics for all my black and white, so I just unscrew the caps.
I use Kodak indicator stop bath and Kodakfix for the fixer, and if you want smooth, use the ilfosol or mix up some Kodak Xtol. Kodak sells a special 5 liter bottle to handle the big size. Xtol 1:3 with fine grain films gives almost grainless negs, but a little low contrast. They scan great though. These chemicals come in liquid form, just dilute to use. Mixing fixer from dry chemicals is a total pain.
Presoak the film with water - always do that - it will eliminate 95% of the processing marks, since the emulsion will already be swelled - agitate in the prewash. With two tanks, and the right staggering I can get 5 rolls processed (1 3 roll, 1 2 roll tank) in 30 minutes. Permawash is your friend for reducing washing time and saving water - it's archival as well.
Clothespins, hanger and dust free shower work for drying. Use photo-flo at 1:200 with distilled water for final rinse, then split the reels open and the film comes out easily.
Using the liquid developers that come premixed is easiest. If you really get into it, you will have to mix dry chemicals like Diafine, acufine, xtol or d-76.
When you process your own black and white film, given the huge gamut of film types and developer combinations, it will seem like you go from black and white to color with all the new "tools" in your photo pallet.
Good luck!
flipflop
Well-known
paulfitz,
Good info. thanks for breaking it down...I pretty much use the same method.
Good info. thanks for breaking it down...I pretty much use the same method.
paulfitz
Established
The plastic Patterson reels can be adusted for 35mm or 120/220. 220 is tricky to load - practice in the light with an old roll, it will save you a lot of heartache later in the changing bag!
kaiyen
local man of mystery
Well, if you're shooting all MF then doing coor with a lab is going to be expensive, yes. But I don't know if the cost savings with doing your own C41 will be worth the trouble. The chemicals don't last that long so you'll need to run batches all at once rather than just a couple at a time. If you don't do that, then all the economy is gone.
allan
allan
kaiyen
local man of mystery
Maybe I'm making things confusing but...
or like a billion others
Both of those are liquids, which is nice, indeed. I prefer starting with D76, but that's a powder unless you buy Lauder Formula 76 or something. Regardless, pick one developer and stick with it until you got your process down, and know what you do or do not like.
Having said that, do you have any thoughts on what kinds of characteristics you want your finished negatives to have? Sharpness (at the cost of grain)? Low grain (at the cost of sharpness)? Speed?
XTOL is actually a powder. Contrast is based very much on development time, so if you find that your negatives are too flat, then increase your development time. If they are too contrasty, then decrease it.
Just to say it...Ilford actually recommends _against_ presoaking film. Some do it without any problems, some don't without any problems. But you don't have to do it. (I do it with 120, though, but not 35mm)
bonne chance!
allan
paulfitz said:
or like a billion others
Both of those are liquids, which is nice, indeed. I prefer starting with D76, but that's a powder unless you buy Lauder Formula 76 or something. Regardless, pick one developer and stick with it until you got your process down, and know what you do or do not like.
Having said that, do you have any thoughts on what kinds of characteristics you want your finished negatives to have? Sharpness (at the cost of grain)? Low grain (at the cost of sharpness)? Speed?
XTOL is actually a powder. Contrast is based very much on development time, so if you find that your negatives are too flat, then increase your development time. If they are too contrasty, then decrease it.
Just to say it...Ilford actually recommends _against_ presoaking film. Some do it without any problems, some don't without any problems. But you don't have to do it. (I do it with 120, though, but not 35mm)
bonne chance!
allan
troym
Established
Developing B&W is straightforward and relatively forgiving. You'd be suprised how many mistakes you can make and still get a printable negative.
Ilford's introduction to B&W developing is in this PDF.
Kodak's more stripped down recommendations are over here.
A few points--just my two cents. If you've never developed film before, I recommend starting with the simplest products and methods before branching out and experimenting.
--Others may disagree, but I would use plastic tanks and reels at first, such as the Patterson system, for 35 mm (120 is a little trickier with the Patterson reels, but you can use Samigon plastic reels for 120; they fit in the Patterson tanks). Stanless steel reels are robust, can be loaded when wet (not always true with plastic reels) and are easy to use once you get the hang of it, but they take some getting used to. Get your feet wet with plastic reels before tackling stainless steel.
--Start with chemicals that come in liquid concentrates. They are easier to handle than powders. You can later switch to other chemicals available in powders, which may give you a look you prefer or may be cheaper. I started with TMax developer, for example, which comes as a liquid concentrate--and which I'll never use again. I now use XTol or D-76, which come packaged as powders.
--Keep in mind that although the process is straightforward, not everyone does it the same way. For example, some of us pre-soak the film in water after loading it into the developing tank, some don't (I used to but no longer do). Some of us use an acid stop bath between the developer and fixer steps, others use a water rinse or even skip the stop bath step altogether (I still use an acid stop bath but I'm probably in a minority in doing so). Agitation methods also differ.
--For your first attempt at developing, try developing a forgiving film like Tri-X or HP5+. I used one of the TMax films at first and produced a milky, purplish, underfixed mess.
Overall, once you standardize your development process, you can get more consistent results by developing black and white on your own than if you used a lab. And when you screw up, you won't be as angry as when the lab screws up, because you can chalk it up to a learning experience. After a while you'll also save money.
Good luck!
Ilford's introduction to B&W developing is in this PDF.
Kodak's more stripped down recommendations are over here.
A few points--just my two cents. If you've never developed film before, I recommend starting with the simplest products and methods before branching out and experimenting.
--Others may disagree, but I would use plastic tanks and reels at first, such as the Patterson system, for 35 mm (120 is a little trickier with the Patterson reels, but you can use Samigon plastic reels for 120; they fit in the Patterson tanks). Stanless steel reels are robust, can be loaded when wet (not always true with plastic reels) and are easy to use once you get the hang of it, but they take some getting used to. Get your feet wet with plastic reels before tackling stainless steel.
--Start with chemicals that come in liquid concentrates. They are easier to handle than powders. You can later switch to other chemicals available in powders, which may give you a look you prefer or may be cheaper. I started with TMax developer, for example, which comes as a liquid concentrate--and which I'll never use again. I now use XTol or D-76, which come packaged as powders.
--Keep in mind that although the process is straightforward, not everyone does it the same way. For example, some of us pre-soak the film in water after loading it into the developing tank, some don't (I used to but no longer do). Some of us use an acid stop bath between the developer and fixer steps, others use a water rinse or even skip the stop bath step altogether (I still use an acid stop bath but I'm probably in a minority in doing so). Agitation methods also differ.
--For your first attempt at developing, try developing a forgiving film like Tri-X or HP5+. I used one of the TMax films at first and produced a milky, purplish, underfixed mess.
Overall, once you standardize your development process, you can get more consistent results by developing black and white on your own than if you used a lab. And when you screw up, you won't be as angry as when the lab screws up, because you can chalk it up to a learning experience. After a while you'll also save money.
Good luck!
Shutterflower, really sorry to hear of your bad processing experience with those valuable 20 rolls! Ivey has a good reputation from what I hear, though I've not used them myself (I use Photo Haus in Yakima). It might be worthwhile taking in a roll or three representative of the worst of the effects and having a little conference with the lab manager about it. See if they can identify the cause and possibly find a recovery, maybe as easy as rewashing.
I've used Ilford's quasi-C41 chemical kits for the old XP1 chromogenic film, as well as Unicolor kits for color C-41, but not for several years. The 100°F and 3.25 min develop bath time are bothersome, and obviously consistency is both important and difficult.
I use Diafine exclusively now for conventional B&W, for the convenience. PanF @50, FP4 @250, and TriX @1000. I might do C-41 again, not sure which kit but I'd favor collecting the required component parts of a kit from Kodak.
I've used Ilford's quasi-C41 chemical kits for the old XP1 chromogenic film, as well as Unicolor kits for color C-41, but not for several years. The 100°F and 3.25 min develop bath time are bothersome, and obviously consistency is both important and difficult.
I use Diafine exclusively now for conventional B&W, for the convenience. PanF @50, FP4 @250, and TriX @1000. I might do C-41 again, not sure which kit but I'd favor collecting the required component parts of a kit from Kodak.
Finder
Veteran
As others have said B&W is easy and economical. Color is trickier. If you want to get a flexible processor that can handle all film and print processing (except fiber-based B&W paper), I would recommend a Jobo CPP-2 with lift. The CPP-2 will control the tempering bath for you unlike the CPA-2 which you need to fiddle with. You can develop film up to 8x10 and prints up to 20x24. For printing, it takes up less space than the required trays and it is less smelly. I have a small apartment and I really cannot smell the chemistry when the darkroom is setup and very little odor when running.
If you intend to do processing, even if it is only film, have an area setup for it. The easier to set up, the more you will use it. The area does not need to be large nor have running water - I have 10 liter tanks with spiggots for water. It may take awhile to figure out the easiest setup, but the effort is worth it. For me, the Jobo processor really simplified it. I have a work surface with two color enlargers (4x5, 2x3), a rolling table to carry the processor, a box to hold the containers with water and chemistry, and a cheap vinyl closet for a dryer. The chemistry containers and closet get packed up and stored under the enlargers or processor when not used. I black off the room with black vinyl curtains which are also put away when the darkroom is down. The room is 8' x 8'.
If you intend to do processing, even if it is only film, have an area setup for it. The easier to set up, the more you will use it. The area does not need to be large nor have running water - I have 10 liter tanks with spiggots for water. It may take awhile to figure out the easiest setup, but the effort is worth it. For me, the Jobo processor really simplified it. I have a work surface with two color enlargers (4x5, 2x3), a rolling table to carry the processor, a box to hold the containers with water and chemistry, and a cheap vinyl closet for a dryer. The chemistry containers and closet get packed up and stored under the enlargers or processor when not used. I black off the room with black vinyl curtains which are also put away when the darkroom is down. The room is 8' x 8'.
PaulN
Monkey
paulfitz said:
I got back into B&W development with purely liquid chemicals due to the fact that I process the film in my kitchen, and I have a 1 year old son. I didn't want to take the chance with mixing chemicals and having any form of powder residue anywhere in the apartment. I got decent results with ilford DD-X but wasn't happy with my results until I switched over to Diafine.
Diafine is a powder but it has a bunch of things going for it:
1) Once you mix up solution A & B, they last 1+ years. I mixed it up outside in the summer and don't have to worry about powders anymore.
2) You can process multiple types of film at the same time. Before, I was always holding off processing so that I had multiple rolls of the same type of film. 2 rolls of Tri-X at 400, 2 rolls of HP5, etc. It was a pain, and the different development times drove me crazy.
3) Development times for diafine are forgiving. 3.5 minutes in A, 3.5 in B. Easy as that; with little agitation.
4) No stop bath required. One less chemical to mix. You use water as a stop bath. With Diafine, you only need to mix up some fixer at the time of development. Actually, depending on the fixer, you may get away with re-using it for a month or so.
Other misc. tips that helped me get good results:
1) Get a cheap disposable "tupperware" contain for photo-flo. Originally, I just added a few drops in during my last rinse. Bad idea; it never fully coated the film and I think I added too much, as the negatives looked like they had an oil slick on them (yeah, I only used 1 - 2 drops..). Anyhow, I now mix a capful (up to the top of the threads)+ 37oz of distilled water in a cheap plastic container and drop the reels in there as I transport them to the bathroom drying rack. That, combined with a photo squeegee are giving me dust free negatives
2)Avoid the patterson reels. I have 2 of them and they are a pain to load. I'll get 3/4 of the way through a roll of 36 exposures, and the baring will jam. I'll then have to take the film out of the reel, fix the bearing and start over. It *sucks*. You have no idea how frustrating it is when they get jammed and you have to jimmy the film out without bending the negative. I now solely use Samigon 35/120 film reels. They have a huge wide mouth that make loading a breeze. I've not had a problem with jamming.
3)Buy a bunch of reels (Samigons). I have about 8 of them now which allow me to process 8 rolls of film. Loading film onto wet reels is near impossible. Having dry reels ready to go make processing a breeze. I'm contemplating getting 4 or 5 tanks so that I can process a bunch of 35 & 120 rolls simultaneously. Thanks to Diafine, timing is not critical, nor is temperature.
Also, latex rubber gloves don't hurt, and paper towel is a plus. I also use a big square plastic tub full of water (75 degrees or so) and leave all of my chemicals in in that. You can pickup cheap plastic containers for your chemicals at a dollar store. Measure out the necessary amounts of chemicals and mark the cheap container with a sharpie. It sure beats spending $15 for a graduated beaker. Keeping your chemicals within a tub full of water helps equalize the temperature.
Good luck!
-Paul
.. interesting tip on the ilfosol. I didn't realize that it was close to Xtol. Out of curiosity, is it close to a 1 to 1 match? I've found that DDX isn't necessarily like D76 even though people say it is. Then again, it could have been my inexperience at the time.
S
stevew
Guest
B&W developing.
B&W developing.
I worked professionally during the 70's and did all the different color and b&w processes. Haven't processed for 25 years but just started back with only a kitchen sink for processing.
If you don't have a darkroom, stay simple, you won't have room to store many different chemicals and you need time to improve your technique and develop consistency.
Pick one developer and stick with it for a while! I use HC-110 because it's so adaptable. Works great for TriX (I dilute 1:63 from concentrate) works great for Panf+(1:100 to control highlight density). Use medical dosage syringe to measure concentrate.
Using diluted HC-110 and longer developing times makes your agitation motions less critical. If you develop for 5 min, every motion is critical. If you develop for 14 min, there are compensations for less than accurate agitation. Everyone has their own technique. For me with diluted developer as above: continuous agiatation for 30 sec, then 7 sec at each 2 min interval.
B&W developing.
I worked professionally during the 70's and did all the different color and b&w processes. Haven't processed for 25 years but just started back with only a kitchen sink for processing.
If you don't have a darkroom, stay simple, you won't have room to store many different chemicals and you need time to improve your technique and develop consistency.
Pick one developer and stick with it for a while! I use HC-110 because it's so adaptable. Works great for TriX (I dilute 1:63 from concentrate) works great for Panf+(1:100 to control highlight density). Use medical dosage syringe to measure concentrate.
Using diluted HC-110 and longer developing times makes your agitation motions less critical. If you develop for 5 min, every motion is critical. If you develop for 14 min, there are compensations for less than accurate agitation. Everyone has their own technique. For me with diluted developer as above: continuous agiatation for 30 sec, then 7 sec at each 2 min interval.
sf
Veteran
thanks for all the input - lots of really valuable information here. All the advice, PDFs, directions, ideas, and product suggestions are vital for me.
I'll probably get started in a week or two.
Thank you, all
-George
I'll probably get started in a week or two.
Thank you, all
-George
MCTuomey
Veteran
Great thread, everyone. I've just about given up on my local lab as well. The last three rolls I've sent out came back scratched ... it's time to start doing my own. I've printed off most of this thread for reference. Time to go shooping for materials and chemicals.
bennybo
Member
Very interesting thread as I'm going to develop my first rolls this weekend.
I bought a Samigon two-reel tank, a changing bag etc.
It would seem from reading many archives that agitation is the main variable in the developing. I am starting out with TriX and D76.
For those using the Samigon tanks, do you use inversion agitation or the twisty thingy (trying to keep the discussion technical).
Keep your fingers crossed. My first rolls out of my first Leica...
Ben
I bought a Samigon two-reel tank, a changing bag etc.
It would seem from reading many archives that agitation is the main variable in the developing. I am starting out with TriX and D76.
For those using the Samigon tanks, do you use inversion agitation or the twisty thingy (trying to keep the discussion technical).
Keep your fingers crossed. My first rolls out of my first Leica...
Ben
Fred
Feline Great
I tend do all my own MF C41 stuff, it's very expensive to get it done around here at a shop and it can take a few weeks to return. I've not shot any MF colour print for a while though. I've tended to use slide film for colour more recently.
The really important thing with C41 is the temperature of 38 degrees and a dev time of 3:15. I used to fill the sink with hot water and wait untill about 40 degrees. With the chemistry settled in the water bath at 38, there is very little temp drift for 3:15 so consistent results are possible. Unlike E6, the temp can drift following development. (E6 has two stage dev taking over 12 mins, an unheated water bath will drift over 1 1/2 degrees)depending on the sink size.
Nova Darkroom make heated dev kits although the are expensive.
I guess if you process a lot home C41 would make sense otherwise like the others say, a trip to the lab is the other option. Personally I can't be bothered to wait two weeks for prints and pay a premium for the experience.
The really important thing with C41 is the temperature of 38 degrees and a dev time of 3:15. I used to fill the sink with hot water and wait untill about 40 degrees. With the chemistry settled in the water bath at 38, there is very little temp drift for 3:15 so consistent results are possible. Unlike E6, the temp can drift following development. (E6 has two stage dev taking over 12 mins, an unheated water bath will drift over 1 1/2 degrees)depending on the sink size.
Nova Darkroom make heated dev kits although the are expensive.
I guess if you process a lot home C41 would make sense otherwise like the others say, a trip to the lab is the other option. Personally I can't be bothered to wait two weeks for prints and pay a premium for the experience.