thafred
silver addict
Hi all,
Since Santa has brought me a nice Minolta Film scanner I noticed something strange I found I should share with you...
Scanning my beloved Neopan 1600 negs, with B+W neg film setting on the scanner, I found the grain to be quite anoying..much more than I am used to from Wet-printing (condenser enlarger)....especially in darker areas when the grain seems more contrasty (and more anoying) than in lighter areas..
Yesterday I thought I should investigate this and tried out the vuescan demo...I was very surprised to see that not only the grain did improve a little but more important the tonality is much better! I got details that couldn´t be recovered in PS from the Minoltas software image! So realizing that this is a software Problem, I thought instead of buying vuescan (sorry I´m a cheap guy) I´ll try to tweak minoltas software to do the same...and Playing around with it I discovered that the Grain is pretty bad on all settings but "Color Positive"...so when I took my first Slide Scan and desaturated and inverted in PS, I was very positivly surprised to get smooth grain and even smoother tones!! ...the scans look a little flat right away but adjusting in Photoshop did´t make things worse at all!
I have two test scans...one with the B/W (named BW...) setting, one with Slide (named Dia...) setting...and two full frame crops...
The tonality is very different and the only thing I did was adjusting contrast for both images untill the negs. border shows between 97 -100% black and the highlights on the chairs are between 0 - 2%black....
Tell me what you think....am I seeing things here or do other users have similar experience? Is this minolta related or just the Software? Or is the Point of focus different for slide? (I used Autofocus on all scanns)
Puzzled but satisfied
Fred
The Attachments here are the ones with the B+W neg setting in the scanners software.
Since Santa has brought me a nice Minolta Film scanner I noticed something strange I found I should share with you...
Scanning my beloved Neopan 1600 negs, with B+W neg film setting on the scanner, I found the grain to be quite anoying..much more than I am used to from Wet-printing (condenser enlarger)....especially in darker areas when the grain seems more contrasty (and more anoying) than in lighter areas..
Yesterday I thought I should investigate this and tried out the vuescan demo...I was very surprised to see that not only the grain did improve a little but more important the tonality is much better! I got details that couldn´t be recovered in PS from the Minoltas software image! So realizing that this is a software Problem, I thought instead of buying vuescan (sorry I´m a cheap guy) I´ll try to tweak minoltas software to do the same...and Playing around with it I discovered that the Grain is pretty bad on all settings but "Color Positive"...so when I took my first Slide Scan and desaturated and inverted in PS, I was very positivly surprised to get smooth grain and even smoother tones!! ...the scans look a little flat right away but adjusting in Photoshop did´t make things worse at all!
I have two test scans...one with the B/W (named BW...) setting, one with Slide (named Dia...) setting...and two full frame crops...
The tonality is very different and the only thing I did was adjusting contrast for both images untill the negs. border shows between 97 -100% black and the highlights on the chairs are between 0 - 2%black....
Tell me what you think....am I seeing things here or do other users have similar experience? Is this minolta related or just the Software? Or is the Point of focus different for slide? (I used Autofocus on all scanns)
Puzzled but satisfied
Fred
The Attachments here are the ones with the B+W neg setting in the scanners software.
thafred
silver addict
Slide setting
Slide setting
here the ones with the Software set to "Color Slide" inverted and desaturated in PS
Slide setting
here the ones with the Software set to "Color Slide" inverted and desaturated in PS
Vagabond
Accomplished Malingerer
I experienced the same thing when scanning b/w negs using the Minolta Dimage Scan Dual III. Now I always scan them as color positives and then in photoshop do an invert and a desaturate. Then I'll tweak them up with levels, etc.
Check out the following site that you may find helpful.
http://robertdfeinman.com/tips/tip11.html
Have fun,
Bill
Check out the following site that you may find helpful.
http://robertdfeinman.com/tips/tip11.html
Have fun,
Bill
thafred
silver addict
Glad to hear that I´m not the only one with this issues.
Very good link!
Thanks
Very good link!
Thanks
bmattock
Veteran
Vagabond said:
Bill,
Thanks for that link. I typically scan my B&W film as generic color negative on my SD IV using Vuescan/Linux and have had no real trouble - but there are always exceptions. I have never tried scanning as color slide and inverting. Sounds like a lot of extra steps, but might well be worth it for images I can't seem to get a good histogram from - thanks for posting the link!
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
jano
Evil Bokeh
I have this issue with another brand of scanner plus its own software.. I get much cleaner scans from vuescan or doing the "scan as positive then gradient map in ps to b&w" method. The difficulty I have with the vuescan or positive scanning is that the negatives almost always show up very, very low contrast, just flat and gray. But the other brand software results in more contrasty images. When I adjust the contrast (using whatever tools available, including curves, etc) on the vuescan/positive, the grain shows up. So I don't know which are the "right" representation of the negs *shrug*
T
Todd.Hanz
Guest
I have the Minolta scan dual IV and use Vuescan, the scanner seems to focus on the grain, so if it's too grainy, Vuescan has a filter to reduce it or you can try a photoshop plug in like "Noise Ninja".
Todd
Todd
kaiyen
local man of mystery
Jano,
It sounds like what's happening is that the software that came with your scanner is merely clipping the shadows and highlights. That will result in not only a much more contrasty image but also less grain in the highlights in shadows. It isn't even including the extreme edges, which is where the detail is so subtle that the grain starts to really show up. Vuescan, in comparison, is probably giving you more detail which is actually causing a problem.
I assume you're already fixing up the levels when you work in PS. I often will scan for maximum range, then use a curve to knock out the lowest and highest areas. I find this keeps the grain down in those areas, but still gives me the most with which to work.
What scanner is this?
allan
It sounds like what's happening is that the software that came with your scanner is merely clipping the shadows and highlights. That will result in not only a much more contrasty image but also less grain in the highlights in shadows. It isn't even including the extreme edges, which is where the detail is so subtle that the grain starts to really show up. Vuescan, in comparison, is probably giving you more detail which is actually causing a problem.
I assume you're already fixing up the levels when you work in PS. I often will scan for maximum range, then use a curve to knock out the lowest and highest areas. I find this keeps the grain down in those areas, but still gives me the most with which to work.
What scanner is this?
allan
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I think you may have to understand what's going on when you scan; there are many factors that could be the source of "grain".
One of them is explained here:
http://www.computer-darkroom.com/sf5-negafix/grain_reduction.htm
One of them is explained here:
http://www.computer-darkroom.com/sf5-negafix/grain_reduction.htm
Jordan W.
Member
"Grain amplification" when scanning B&W negs is pretty well-known, I'm afraid :| ...
I do a lot of B&W scanning with a Minolta Scan Dual II. For what it's worth, I use Vuescan, scanning the negs as "Image" in 16-bit grayscale -- This gives a flat negative scan. In PS, I then invert, adjust the black and white point sliders (Levels) to the edges of the histogram, and then adjust curves as needed. (Usually you need to put a "bow" or at least an "S-shape" in the curve to get a natural rendition of tones. This is due to the nature of the PS Invert command, which is subtractive, unlike the inversion that occurs during normal printing, which is logarithmic.)
Another issue may be that the Minolta scan software is automatically applying a sharpening algorithm (unsharp mask or something like it.)
I do a lot of B&W scanning with a Minolta Scan Dual II. For what it's worth, I use Vuescan, scanning the negs as "Image" in 16-bit grayscale -- This gives a flat negative scan. In PS, I then invert, adjust the black and white point sliders (Levels) to the edges of the histogram, and then adjust curves as needed. (Usually you need to put a "bow" or at least an "S-shape" in the curve to get a natural rendition of tones. This is due to the nature of the PS Invert command, which is subtractive, unlike the inversion that occurs during normal printing, which is logarithmic.)
Another issue may be that the Minolta scan software is automatically applying a sharpening algorithm (unsharp mask or something like it.)
dmr
Registered Abuser
Out of curiosity, did you adjust the levels in the "image correction" section after you did the prescan and before you did the final scan?
PaulN
Monkey
Vuescan B&W Tips
Vuescan B&W Tips
In a recent thread on Tri-X in Rodinal there were some great Vuescan tips by PeterS (post #8 in the thread). His settings have helped me with scanning my negatives. I'm still struggling with getting correct color on slide & color films, but I feel as if I have the B&W process nailed, thanks to his post.
If any Moderator's are reading this, it might be worthwhile to start a 'Vuescan Tips/Settings' sticky that contains people's settings. Given the length of time it can take to tweak the vuescan settings until their perfect, I think that a lot of us could save time and learn from those who have perfected their workflow. Hell, we may even be able to contribute some of the stuff back to Hamrick so that their are some 'easy modes' that default to common/good settings.
Just my $0.02,
-Paul
The first sentance in my post is the link to the message, but if you are having problems, cut/paste this:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14263
Vuescan B&W Tips
In a recent thread on Tri-X in Rodinal there were some great Vuescan tips by PeterS (post #8 in the thread). His settings have helped me with scanning my negatives. I'm still struggling with getting correct color on slide & color films, but I feel as if I have the B&W process nailed, thanks to his post.
If any Moderator's are reading this, it might be worthwhile to start a 'Vuescan Tips/Settings' sticky that contains people's settings. Given the length of time it can take to tweak the vuescan settings until their perfect, I think that a lot of us could save time and learn from those who have perfected their workflow. Hell, we may even be able to contribute some of the stuff back to Hamrick so that their are some 'easy modes' that default to common/good settings.
Just my $0.02,
-Paul
The first sentance in my post is the link to the message, but if you are having problems, cut/paste this:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14263
kaiyen
local man of mystery
I just put that thread up on my blog. There is also a link to a PN discussion from a while back with more settings.
allan
allan
peter_n
Veteran
Bill thanks for the link, and Paul too! I have the KM SD IV and just bought Viewscan after a year of KM software scanning so I'm a newbie. Always scanned my B&W negs as color negs though. No real trouble with grain.
I have the KM SD IV and just bought Viewscan after a year of KM software scanning so I'm a newbie. Always scanned my B&W negs as color negs though. No real trouble with grain.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Todd.Hanz said:
You are evidently comfortable doing it the noncomplicated way. What filter do you use on Vuescan?
I use Silverfast, and scan B&W as B&W in 16-bit, as either autoprofile or use a preset negative profile, whichever is best (not all negatives and exposures will be the same in different conditions/developers/blah blah). Sometimes I leave the "grain" because it's better to have details that would otherwise be lost, but when possible, either take the different negative profile approach, use NeatImage, or purposefuly don't let the scanner autofocus.
I don't like to use filters right at scan time, but I'd like to experiment. So which filter is it? Your scans are both hyperclean and have sparking clarity. Me want those too
Jordan W.
Member
kaiyen said:
Allan, you should enable comments from non-Blogger users on your info-blog! Otherwise, it's a very useful site.
For some reason I've never been pleased with scans from film developed in Rodinal (except super-fine-grain films like Efke 25) on my Scan Dual II. There is something "about it" that just doesn't work -- the edge on the grain, perhaps, or "interference" between the grain size and scanner resolution. On my Epson 4180 (flatbed with transparency capabilities that I use for medium-format film) I don't have this problem -- but its scans are inherently "softer".
I have a number of prints I made the old-fashioned way, though, from Tri-X in Rodinal 1+50. The grain is crisp but unobtrusive, and the tonality is very nice.
With regards to Vuescan, I'm always of the opinion that it's best to get as much information from the negative as possible during scanning (no sharpening, no exposure clipping, space around the histogram, etc.) and then use PS to clean it up. So I always scan my images as colour positives ("Image" in Vuescan) and deal with everything else later.
kaiyen
local man of mystery
Jordan,
I turned on commenting for non blogger users. I have been wary of comment spam, but I'll see how it goes. Good suggestion...
One thing I want to add about Vuescan and scanning as a positive - this is not nec. with Nikon scanners. At one point, the "salt and pepper" grain that resulted from using NikonScan necessitated scanning as positive, but Vuescan somehow solved that problem. I am certain that I get all of the data on the film when using Vuescan.
allan
I turned on commenting for non blogger users. I have been wary of comment spam, but I'll see how it goes. Good suggestion...
One thing I want to add about Vuescan and scanning as a positive - this is not nec. with Nikon scanners. At one point, the "salt and pepper" grain that resulted from using NikonScan necessitated scanning as positive, but Vuescan somehow solved that problem. I am certain that I get all of the data on the film when using Vuescan.
allan
anaanda
Well-known
I have the Minolta Dimage IV and scanning XP2 Super film gives excellent results for black and white film. It has such a wide tonal range and with a slight contrast adjustment it looks great.
dmr
Registered Abuser
One thing I noticed since this original thread happened, and this isn't B&W but I think it may pertain to this. When I scan the Walgreens/Agfa 200 at 1200 or 1600dpi it often times has very rough grain, or grain aliasing.
Scanning at 3200 and reducing gives a much cleaner image.
Scanning at 3200 and reducing gives a much cleaner image.
sfb_dot_com
Well-known
By a strange coincidence, I was about to post on this very same topic. I have just a week ago acquired my SD IV, and although initally excited started to become suspicious of the overly grainy results from B&W. Of course I started with TMax 3200 so thought this was normal at first, until I got more or less the same with Delta 400. I then thought it was the developing, so I adjusted that, but still the same. I then conducted some more experiments as I had already heard about this problem. Having said that, I took some of my grainy results to the local minilab, and they printed absolutely fine at 8x6, so I guess the problem will only really show up at bigger magnifications.
Anyway as I said, I conducted some tests. I downloaded the demo of Vuescan, then the Silverfast demo. I used a neg which seemed to show this problem pretty badly being a pebbledashed wall with lots of fine detail. I first scanned in B&W to get the grainy effect. The next three tests were conducted as scanning colour neg in a) the KM software, b)Vuescan c)Silverfast. The results were not quite as I envisioned having been aware that Vuescan existed and was said to do a better job, but also that Silverfast has it's own adherents. All three showed more detail, and less granularity than the B&W scan. This granularity showed up around the edge of the pieces of grit in the painted wall as the dreaded 'salt & pepper'. None of the colour versions showed this. Silverfast was the worst of these however showing less detail in the midtone areas than the Vuescan, which in turn was less detailed than the KM software. My conclusion therefore from this mini test was that the KM software does give the same detail or better as the Vuescan at least on the colour neg setting.
More to follow as my partner's son needs the computer for homework!!!!
Andy
Anyway as I said, I conducted some tests. I downloaded the demo of Vuescan, then the Silverfast demo. I used a neg which seemed to show this problem pretty badly being a pebbledashed wall with lots of fine detail. I first scanned in B&W to get the grainy effect. The next three tests were conducted as scanning colour neg in a) the KM software, b)Vuescan c)Silverfast. The results were not quite as I envisioned having been aware that Vuescan existed and was said to do a better job, but also that Silverfast has it's own adherents. All three showed more detail, and less granularity than the B&W scan. This granularity showed up around the edge of the pieces of grit in the painted wall as the dreaded 'salt & pepper'. None of the colour versions showed this. Silverfast was the worst of these however showing less detail in the midtone areas than the Vuescan, which in turn was less detailed than the KM software. My conclusion therefore from this mini test was that the KM software does give the same detail or better as the Vuescan at least on the colour neg setting.
More to follow as my partner's son needs the computer for homework!!!!
Andy