Educate me on 120 6x9 folders please.

[Puggie]

I'd like a nice 6x9 folder, don't want to spend too much, but would like something half decent. I've no idea where to start here so looking for advice.

Is there anything out there with a coupled rangefinder?

I briefly looked at some of the Voigtlander Bessas on fleabay, but don't really know where to start with them, or if they are a sensible option.

HELP... please!

 

[Robert Lai]

Voigtlander Bessas come in several flavors. The earlier ones (known simply as the Bessa RF) may have uncoated lenses, though a rare post-war one will come with a coated Color-Heliar lens. I have one of those from about 1946. Mine even has the 6 x 4.5cm mask so that I can get 16 pictures out of a roll of film. Once the mask is inserted, the two red windows in the back become open, to allow you to wind correctly. These have separate rangefinder and viewfinder windows (with a switchable mask on the viewfinder for 6 x 4.5 cm), like your Leica LTM camera.

The Bessa II that you more commonly find are far more expensive. They will have shutters that offer flash synch. Price wise, Apo Lanthar > Color Heliar > Color Skopar. These have combined viewfinders and rangefinders, like your Leica M3.

With all folders, what counts is that the bellows are light tight, and that the lens board is held rigidly parallel to the film plane.
Shutters may be sticky from decades of gummed up grease, and the RF may be off. All of these are repairable, at a cost.

Zeiss Super Ikonta C - also a very fine 6 x 9 camera, with a 6x4.5 mask option (often lost by now). Unlike the Voigtlanders which focus their lenses as a unit, the Super Ikontas are front focusing cameras with Tessars (4-elements). They may not, in theory be as sharp wide open and up close as the Heliars.

All of the above are collectable, and thus not likely to be cheap. They are however, what I am familiar with, having owned them.

Last - not a folder, but consider the Kodak Medalist II. They take 620 film, but can be modified to take 120 film. Super sharp 5-element Heliar type lens (Kodak calls it Ektar). Incredibly solid, heavy, rigid metal hunk of a camera. Good enough, literally, for military use.

 

[Brian Legge]

Any specific goals in mind shooting 6x9?

Some of these cameras came from a time period where people may have been making more contact prints than enlarging. Compared to more modern offerings, some of the early 6x9s had film flatness issues and low resolution lenses. They certainly give vintage look but it can be surprising for some.

I'm a big fan of the Medalist II from a quality standpoint but its much larger than a folder.

 

[Pioneer]

The Agfa Billy Record III is another alternative. These are usually equipped with the Solinar lens which is a Tessar style optic. The rangefinders are uncoupled which means that once you have focused you will need to take the reading on the top of the camera and transfer it to the lens.

A great modern folder is the Fuji GF670 but, as the name implies, it takes a 6x7 photo, not 6x9. These are usually a bit more expensive than the older folders (except for the APO-Lanthar Bessa II) but have great lenses. They are also battery dependent as the shutters are electronic.

With folding cameras condition will usually trump lens quality or brand. Sticky shutters or damaged struts can make the finest lens useless. Most of the older folding cameras will be needing some service by this time so you will want to include the cost into your price estimate. Certo6 on E-bay sells folding cameras that have already been serviced so he is a good option.

Good luck and good shooting. Folding cameras are a terrific way to photograph and can end up being quite addictive.

 

[Puggie]

Voigtlander Bessas come in several flavors. The earlier ones (known simply as the Bessa RF) may have uncoated lenses, though a rare post-war one will come with a coated Color-Heliar lens. I have one of those from about 1946. Mine even has the 6 x 4.5cm mask so that I can get 16 pictures out of a roll of film. Once the mask is inserted, the two red windows in the back become open, to allow you to wind correctly. These have separate rangefinder and viewfinder windows (with a switchable mask on the viewfinder for 6 x 4.5 cm), like your Leica LTM camera.

The Bessa II that you more commonly find are far more expensive. They will have shutters that offer flash synch. Price wise, Apo Lanthar > Color Heliar > Color Skopar. These have combined viewfinders and rangefinders, like your Leica M3.

With all folders, what counts is that the bellows are light tight, and that the lens board is held rigidly parallel to the film plane.
Shutters may be sticky from decades of gummed up grease, and the RF may be off. All of these are repairable, at a cost.

Zeiss Super Ikonta C - also a very fine 6 x 9 camera, with a 6x4.5 mask option (often lost by now). Unlike the Voigtlanders which focus their lenses as a unit, the Super Ikontas are front focusing cameras with Tessars (4-elements). They may not, in theory be as sharp wide open and up close as the Heliars.

All of the above are collectable, and thus not likely to be cheap. They are however, what I am familiar with, having owned them.

Last - not a folder, but consider the Kodak Medalist II. They take 620 film, but can be modified to take 120 film. Super sharp 5-element Heliar type lens (Kodak calls it Ektar). Incredibly solid, heavy, rigid metal hunk of a camera. Good enough, literally, for military use.

Sold the Leica hence the 'something new' quest, I'm really looking for the big panoramic negative. I'll have a look at your suggestions thanks.

Any specific goals in mind shooting 6x9?

Some of these cameras came from a time period where people may have been making more contact prints than enlarging. Compared to more modern offerings, some of the early 6x9s had film flatness issues and low resolution lenses. They certainly give vintage look but it can be surprising for some.

I'm a big fan of the Medalist II from a quality standpoint but its much larger than a folder.

No real goals shooting 6x9 I just want something a big more panoramic looking than std 35mm and have a big pile of expired 120 I'd like to start rocking through. I'd like some nice big negs to look at I'm not really sure to be honest, probably just scratching another 'I want one of those' itches.

I would like something not too vintage (looking) really if I'm honest, I've been half thinking about cobbling a panoramic camera together using an Angulon 90mm f6.8 and some Mamiya press backs I have, I'm now leaning to 'just buy something'.

The Agfa Billy Record III is another alternative. These are usually equipped with the Solinar lens which is a Tessar style optic. The rangefinders are uncoupled which means that once you have focused you will need to take the reading on the top of the camera and transfer it to the lens.

A great modern folder is the Fuji GF670 but, as the name implies, it takes a 6x7 photo, not 6x9. These are usually a bit more expensive than the older folders (except for the APO-Lanthar Bessa II) but have great lenses. They are also battery dependent as the shutters are electronic.

With folding cameras condition will usually trump lens quality or brand. Sticky shutters or damaged struts can make the finest lens useless. Most of the older folding cameras will be needing some service by this time so you will want to include the cost into your price estimate. Certo6 on E-bay sells folding cameras that have already been serviced so he is a good option.

Good luck and good shooting. Folding cameras are a terrific way to photograph and can end up being quite addictive.

Fuji GF670 lust is what has got me here if I'm honest! I had an old Zeizz Ikon 6x6 but never really gelled with it, I did like the pocketability though, I know a 6x9 will be bigger but I can run with that!

 

[GaryLH]

If u don't mind a bit heavier..

- Graphflex xl has interchangeable lenses and interchangeable backs
- various mini versions of foldable 4x5 (2x3 versions) such as baby linhof or graphflex
- a non-folder like brooks veriwide. The original version was 6x10.
- 9x12 folder (sheet film or 120 roll adapter)

Gary

 

[oftheherd]

Is a rangefinder a requirement? I have a Zeiss Ikon 6x9 that gives great photos with its Zeiss Novar lens. Zone focusing isn't that hard to get used to, but you do have to make it a part of your 'work flow' when using zone focusing cameras.

I'm not sure I would consider a 6x9 a panoramic camera any more that any other camera you might use and stitch photos together. Of course it has 9cm width, but a longer lens as well.

 

[Robert Lai]

The lenses on these folders usually give a normal to slightly wide angle of view.

 

[Filzkoeter]

Angle of view from a 105mm on 6x9 = 45mm lens on 35mm film.

Rigidity, lens board parallelism, a good pressure plate and good adjustments (lens correctly shimmed, as intended from the manufacturer... not just "somehow adjusted on a ground glass by moving the stop of the front element") are the key to high quality from old folders.

Don't rule out the scale focusing ones, it's not that hard to get the focusing right enough + there are always helping tools like auxiliary rangefinders. Scale focusing folders are simpler, less demanding with adjustments and way cheaper!
(I also find it _very_ liberating to shoot with a scale focusing camera... as you're not temped to hunt for the most perfect focus)

Get one with a coated 4 (or more) element lens (Tessar, Xenar, etc) + a high quality shutter if you want the best possible picture quality.
My front-element focusing Tessar 105/3.5 (coated, recalculated east german mid-1950s one), which now lives on a pre-war Ikonta in a Compur-Rapid shutter, is easily as good as the Xenar from my Rolleicord V... if not even better

 

[Ko.Fe.]

You could get working Moskva-2 and 4 cheap. They aren't difficult to CLA either. Lenses are coated and clean. Shutters fresh, advanced and good as well. Avoid Moskva-5.
Agfa-Billy Record is very nice and very simple scale camera. I have one large print from the scan of Delta 100 in it and it looks good.

Certo6 is good place to buy old folders.

My impression is what 6x9 were made for cheap and easy contact printing. Don't expect extraordinary sharpness from them on scans, enlargements.

 

[pagpow]

What Filzkoeter and Of the herd said.

I had always shot with some sort of focusing aid. But I finally tried Zeiss Ikon folders, just to try medium format. And I shot essentially landscapes. If, in indicating panoramic, you are going to be doing the same, you will find the Ikontas and Nettars (no rangefinder), size C, very easy to shoot without a RF and with hyper focal or zone focusing.

Some make it even easier by giving you a red dot on the focus scale and on the shutter speed scale Line them up and you have hyper focal distance.

One additional alternative, since you mention panoramic, is to buy folders that took 9x12 frames (I forget the film size now), like the Zeiss Ikon D, and mask down the frame so you get a 6x12. Lens is longer so you won't get a wide angle but it will give you that aspect ratio.

You will get various opinions about which brand to get and lens performance, BUT...
more than one person has found the mechanics of the ZI folders to be superior and
the performance of the ZI triplets, stopped down, more than satisfying with the image size.

Jump in to one and test drive it. If you don't like it, haven't lost much. Good luck and let us know what you decide.

Giorgio

Angle of view from a 105mm on 6x9 = 45mm lens on 35mm film.

Rigidity, lens board parallelism, a good pressure plate and good adjustments (lens correctly shimmed, as intended from the manufacturer... not just "somehow adjusted on a ground glass by moving the stop of the front element") are the key to high quality from old folders.

Don't rule out the scale focusing ones, it's not that hard to get the focusing right enough + there are always helping tools like auxiliary rangefinders. Scale focusing folders are simpler, less demanding with adjustments and way cheaper!
(I also find it _very_ liberating to shoot with a scale focusing camera... as you're not temped to hunt for the most perfect focus)

Get one with a coated 4 (or more) element lens (Tessar, Xenar, etc) + a high quality shutter if you want the best possible picture quality.
My front-element focusing Tessar 105/3.5 (coated, recalculated east german mid-1950s one), which now lives on a pre-war Ikonta in a Compur-Rapid shutter, is easily as good as the Xenar from my Rolleicord V... if not even better

 

[johannielscom]

Rodenstock Clarovid. The first 6x9 RF ever made. Prewar, uncoated lens but very sharp when it's in good condition and you use a hood for contrast.

Sometimes you get lucky and find one cheap, that's why I thought I'd mention it here.

 

[MaxElmar]

I messed around with a lot of folders in my time, but eventually I got a Kodak Medalist II. I re-spool 120 to fit in it. The 105mm, 5 element coated Ektar in a rigid frame with a wide base magnified RF blows 'em all away. (But still with a vintage look.) Of course, it weighs 3 1/2 lbs. so maybe a Super Ikonta C would be better for you!

 

[kuzano]

This is the article that got me started and filled in the holes for me when I jumped into folders. It is headed "Medium Format in Your Pocket". I see it is now accompanied by a "folders forum".

Digest all this information as a very good starting point for Folder information:

Medium Format In Your Pocket... this article and site must be close to 20 years old. Format has changed little. Content is good!!!

http://www.cleanimages.com/Article-MediumFormatInYourPocket.asp

 

[citizen99]

I'd like a nice 6x9 folder, don't want to spend too much, but would like something half decent. I've no idea where to start here so looking for advice.

Is there anything out there with a coupled rangefinder?

I briefly looked at some of the Voigtlander Bessas on fleabay, but don't really know where to start with them, or if they are a sensible option.

HELP... please!

I expect you've probably already seen this other thread, where a consolidated list of 120 folders including 6x9s is accumulating, some also showing or linking to pictures produced to give an idea of what can be expected.
Oh, and +1 to the comments above

 

[citizen99]

This is the article that got me started and filled in the holes for me when I jumped into folders. It is headed "Medium Format in Your Pocket". I see it is now accompanied by a "folders forum".

Digest all this information as a very good starting point for Folder information:

Medium Format In Your Pocket... this article and site must be close to 20 years old. Format has changed little. Content is good!!!

http://www.cleanimages.com/Article-MediumFormatInYourPocket.asp

Thanks for the link. Being 'Mr.Pedantic' I spotted a mis-ranking of the Voigtlander Helomar in the part about Voigtlander Bessa (Late 20's to mid 40's); it's a triplet and should be ranked alongside the Voigtar, not the Heliar. Nothing wrong with it, of course, it's a perfectly good lens of its type. I had one for a while.
I suspect that the 'Hel...' prefix sometimes misdirects peoples' assumptions.
Here is a Voigtlander pricelist showing it as the cheapest model in the range.

 

[johnnyrod]

If you're going to shoot landscape then do you really need a rangefinder? Few things are going to be close enough to need accurate focusing, I would guess - I don't do much landscape though.

Yes the Super Ikonta has a coupled rangefinder but not I think a combined rangefinder and viewfinder i.e. two windows to look through on the back. Not sure about Perkeo etc.

If you want to start cheaply, or at least have a go without risking much cash, there are tons of cheap Zeiss Nettars out there, a tenner will bag you one. You could add on a rangefinder if you need. Anything with "Ikonta" on it pushes the price up, but not so much as if it is preceded by "Super". The Tessar lenses are good but the Novars when stopped down to f5.6 and smaller aren't bad at all - you may be wanting to use a lot of DoF anyway?

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Holgalon / Holgulon / Holganon

Holgalon / Holgulon / Holganon

I've been half thinking about cobbling a panoramic camera together using an Angulon 90mm f6.8 and some Mamiya press backs I have, I'm now leaning to 'just buy something'.

If you want something really panoramic, indeed the Angulon 90mm is a very good and relatively low cost choice.
If you're handy or know someone who is, then you can (let) build a socalled Holgalon or sometimes called Holgulon or Holganon. Buy yourself a cheap Holga 120 panorama camera and have its lens exchanged with the Angulon. There you have your - almost pro - panorama camera: the negs measure 6 x 12 cm ! by just using regular 120 rolfilm.

(I've almost finished buiding mine - just looking for a nice separate rangefinder to put on top - will be a Russian one)
btw the below one isn't mine...but mine has the exact same lens / shutter combo: Angulon on 'Linhof' Synchro Compur shutter


Holganon by Rogier Willems, on Flickr

 

[kuzano]

Thanks for pointing that out...

Thanks for pointing that out...

Thanks for the link. Being 'Mr.Pedantic' I spotted a mis-ranking of the Voigtlander Helomar in the part about Voigtlander Bessa (Late 20's to mid 40's); it's a triplet and should be ranked alongside the Voigtar, not the Heliar. Nothing wrong with it, of course, it's a perfectly good lens of its type. I had one for a while.
I suspect that the 'Hel...' prefix sometimes misdirects peoples' assumptions.
Here is a Voigtlander pricelist showing it as the cheapest model in the range.

I had a Helomar on a Voightlander Bessa RF, and I realize it was not a Heliar and it was a triplett, on the early model camera. However, it was fantastic in IQ and I can't imagine how much better the Heliar must have been for that comparison.

Thanks again... I've had two of the Bessa RF's and both were Helomars. Second just as good as the first. I would easily buy another if one comes along.

 

[RobinWinter]

If you want something really panoramic, indeed the Angulon 90mm is a very good and relatively low cost choice.
If you're handy or know someone who is, then you can (let) build a socalled Holgalon or sometimes called Holgulon or Holganon. Buy yourself a cheap Holga 120 panorama camera and have its lens exchanged with the Angulon. There you have your - almost pro - panorama camera: the negs measure 6 x 12 cm ! by just using regular 120 rolfilm.

(I've almost finished buiding mine - just looking for a nice separate rangefinder to put on top - will be a Russian one)
btw the below one isn't mine...but mine has the exact same lens / shutter combo: Angulon on 'Linhof' Synchro Compur shutter


Holganon by Rogier Willems, on Flickr

Hi Ron, really intrigued by this option, can you provide more info on the build?