bence8810
Well-known
Hello,
I got my hands on two packs of (waaay) expired Ilford 20x24 FB paper, 10 sheets each.
I ran a test by dropping a small piece into the developer and one piece directly into the fixer. Once I developed the paper and examined it next to the one that went straight into fixer, I saw noticeable fog and yellowing - the paper can't really be used for anything other than testing. So I was off to experience printing this large Fibre for the first time. I did print 20x24 RC and even once a 90x90cm (~35x35inch) RC paper a few weeks ago but never fibre above the size of 8x10.
Overall it went well, the problems I had was uneven development, keeping the paper flat when dried and also the mere handling of this size when still wet.
With large RC papers I always just used 500ml of developer and kept sloshing it around in the tray while developing and that was sufficient. With Fibre I now know I need more liquids as the paper absorbs quite a lot to begin with. Also the paper isn't so flat in the tray at the beginning (as opposed to RC) and this makes it hard for the little liquid to get onto the surface equally from the beginning. When I saw this was happening I flipped the paper on it's face which helped but flipping it was an issue on it's own too - the paper once wet is extremely hard to handle with one tong. I ended up flipping the paper with one tong on one side and holding the other corner with my left hand.
You'll see the unevenness in the photos below if you look carefully. I'll print another one later in the week and try to get better at it.
This is what the paper look like once fixed and taking a pre-soak in the tray full of water.
I washed the print for 5 minutes in that tray, then transferred it into another tray with some washing aid (manufactured by Chugai - a local company). This washing aid bath is suggested for 10 minutes which I did and it left the print incredibly slimy after the treatment. From the washing aid I transferred it back to the water bath (with fresh water) and left it there for 20 minutes. I replaced the water in the bath 2-3 times meanwhile. All of these steps are roughly what is suggested on the Washing Aid's bottle.
Once washed, I put the print on the wall of our bathroom (plastic) and used a squeegee to remove access water.
I then applied some tape around the edges - trying to only tape very little of the paper as I know I'll need to cut it off after drying since the glue contaminates the paper.
At this point I went to sleep, and when I woke up this is what waited for me in the bathroom.
The print managed to pull free of the tape at the top and this resulted in some nasty curls on both sides of the print. It seems like the print can't ever be flat again as some parts are stretched while some aren't. Not sure how to explain but where the tape kept holding it the paper ended up being stretched and where it got away, it shrank.
This was the status once I removed the tape. You see some areas of the paper where the tape pulled the coating off - this only happened after I tried taping it once again in my room to the workbench. At this point I noticed it can't be made flat anymore as the dimensions of the paper aren't even anymore and when removing the tape it did the damage. This leaves me thinking that when I apply the tape while wet it will remove okay in the morning, when applying the tape dry, it will cause the damage.
All in all it was a great learning experience. Handling of this large sheet of fibre paper is very challenging, especially in my limited darkroom. I can't put all 3 trays next to eachother and this creates all sorts of logistical challenges.
Next time I'll use two tongs, I'll use 1000ml of liquid instead of 500ml and will start development face down. I'll also tape the paper more securely - perhaps make the print slightly smaller so to leave a larger free area that I can then cut off later.
Any suggestions please let me know!
Thanks,
Ben
I got my hands on two packs of (waaay) expired Ilford 20x24 FB paper, 10 sheets each.
I ran a test by dropping a small piece into the developer and one piece directly into the fixer. Once I developed the paper and examined it next to the one that went straight into fixer, I saw noticeable fog and yellowing - the paper can't really be used for anything other than testing. So I was off to experience printing this large Fibre for the first time. I did print 20x24 RC and even once a 90x90cm (~35x35inch) RC paper a few weeks ago but never fibre above the size of 8x10.
Overall it went well, the problems I had was uneven development, keeping the paper flat when dried and also the mere handling of this size when still wet.
With large RC papers I always just used 500ml of developer and kept sloshing it around in the tray while developing and that was sufficient. With Fibre I now know I need more liquids as the paper absorbs quite a lot to begin with. Also the paper isn't so flat in the tray at the beginning (as opposed to RC) and this makes it hard for the little liquid to get onto the surface equally from the beginning. When I saw this was happening I flipped the paper on it's face which helped but flipping it was an issue on it's own too - the paper once wet is extremely hard to handle with one tong. I ended up flipping the paper with one tong on one side and holding the other corner with my left hand.
You'll see the unevenness in the photos below if you look carefully. I'll print another one later in the week and try to get better at it.
This is what the paper look like once fixed and taking a pre-soak in the tray full of water.
I washed the print for 5 minutes in that tray, then transferred it into another tray with some washing aid (manufactured by Chugai - a local company). This washing aid bath is suggested for 10 minutes which I did and it left the print incredibly slimy after the treatment. From the washing aid I transferred it back to the water bath (with fresh water) and left it there for 20 minutes. I replaced the water in the bath 2-3 times meanwhile. All of these steps are roughly what is suggested on the Washing Aid's bottle.
Once washed, I put the print on the wall of our bathroom (plastic) and used a squeegee to remove access water.
I then applied some tape around the edges - trying to only tape very little of the paper as I know I'll need to cut it off after drying since the glue contaminates the paper.
At this point I went to sleep, and when I woke up this is what waited for me in the bathroom.
The print managed to pull free of the tape at the top and this resulted in some nasty curls on both sides of the print. It seems like the print can't ever be flat again as some parts are stretched while some aren't. Not sure how to explain but where the tape kept holding it the paper ended up being stretched and where it got away, it shrank.
This was the status once I removed the tape. You see some areas of the paper where the tape pulled the coating off - this only happened after I tried taping it once again in my room to the workbench. At this point I noticed it can't be made flat anymore as the dimensions of the paper aren't even anymore and when removing the tape it did the damage. This leaves me thinking that when I apply the tape while wet it will remove okay in the morning, when applying the tape dry, it will cause the damage.
All in all it was a great learning experience. Handling of this large sheet of fibre paper is very challenging, especially in my limited darkroom. I can't put all 3 trays next to eachother and this creates all sorts of logistical challenges.
Next time I'll use two tongs, I'll use 1000ml of liquid instead of 500ml and will start development face down. I'll also tape the paper more securely - perhaps make the print slightly smaller so to leave a larger free area that I can then cut off later.
Any suggestions please let me know!
Thanks,
Ben
You are a very brave man
bence8810
Well-known
Ended up spilling some fixer on the floor too while sloshing it around in the tray to cover it all.
Unfortunately this darkroom is as big as I'll ever have until we remain in Tokyo so I need to make do with the space.
This pack of paper is complete garbage so I might as well use it to practice. I'll throw the prints away as they don't look good, no whites what so ever.
How do you dry yours Ned?
Ben
I dry them on a cardboard and don't care about the curls. I stack them by 10 with a cardboard into a Black bag (the one that comes with the papers) and stack the bags. Dealing with a large number of fb 20x24 is such a pita that I figured that I'll let the next generation (my sons) deal with it. Shuffling through those prints is like juggling with 8 chairs!
bence8810
Well-known
So you just dry them face up on a cardboard and be done with it?
How is the curl as opposed to having them hung from cloth pins?
I have another 18 sheets of paper so I am happy to do some testing.
Ben
How is the curl as opposed to having them hung from cloth pins?
I have another 18 sheets of paper so I am happy to do some testing.
Ben
Yes, face up.
Everything depends on the ambiant air. Warm and normal relative humidity will leave the paper supple.
If dried during the very dry air of the winter months caused by electrical heating, the paper becomes VERY brittle and cracks.
The key is in the ambient air.
bence8810
Well-known
Okay - that means for a while I can dry mine in the room and then during the winter as Tokyo gets dryer, i'll need to dry them in the bathroom.
I don't think I'll do much of this actually since the price for a single sheet of 20x24 in Tokyo these days costs $20USD which takes the fun out of printing. Buy a 10 sheet box and you are out of 200 USD. Then the wife opens the darkroom door when you cut the paper and there it goes.
Sad but will have to stick to smaller FB that I source from back home and RC for large prints.
Ben
bence8810
Well-known
Small is beautiful. Nothing wrong with 5x7 or 8x10
Yes I know it's beautiful and easy to look at but I'd like to hang some on the wall and 5x7 doesn't look great on the wall.
I now have 3-4 permanent spots in the darkroom where I can hang 40x60cms prints and I want to rotate them. During the day the darkroom is just a room so having prints hanging there will further motivate me.
Anyways, thanks for all the help. Will try drying it face up. Wonder why the tape didn't work, there are people here who swear by that method. Perhaps I taped very little of the paper and it didn't give enough grab to the tape to hold it firm.
Ben
No idea... Never tried it. Maybe pinning all corners?
bence8810
Well-known
Can't do in the bath - the wall is plastic but could just pin it to some wood board with a sheet of paper in between.
I'll report back.
Ben
Fotohuis
Well-known
Well, I still have a box Forte Poly Warmtone PW14 in 50x60cm / 20x24". But in these sizes I am working with a paper drum. Washing completely out can be in the bathroom. And for drying I have to use an IKEA frame which is big enough for drying with aquarel tape.
Till 24x30cm in fiber/baryta it is not so difficult but when using these huge sizes it is not easy in handling anymore.
Till 24x30cm in fiber/baryta it is not so difficult but when using these huge sizes it is not easy in handling anymore.
Highway 61
Revisited
For 24x30cm sheets, 750ml of liquid in the trays (developer, stop bath, fixer) is enough.
Starting developing face down is mandatory. Anyway, uneven development with paper is almost impossible : you must leave the sheet in the developer until the development is complete (that is, at least 2 minutes if the exposition under the enlarger was correct). It's not the same logics as it's when developing film.
Always use three clamps to avoid contaminating the baths.
FB sheets must be rinsed for at least one hour under continuously renewed tap water. Washing aids can be helpful but most of the time they're a waste of money. Manage to make something efficient with your shower flexible and your bathtube. Not difficult.
My habit is : I have a fourth tray on the working bench, fully filled with water, and I put the fixed sheet in it so that I can develop other sheets during my developing session. When the session is over I'm usually left with 5-10 sheets bathing in that last tray. I put the chemicals back in the bottles, clean up the bathtube area, put the enlarger away etc, so that I can use the bathtube for rinsing the sheets with nothing else around. Thanks to the shower flexible it's pretty easy to rinse the sheets properly.
There are lots of myths and urban legends about the impossibility of getting flat FB sheets once dried. Ned is right, the key is in the ambiant air.
Yet - there is no need to use any of the multiple sophisticated tricks mentioned around to get the sheets flat just after drying.
Wipe them with a clean sponge, then just let them dry face up on a table (on a cardboard or on a cotton made kitchen towel).
When dry, just put them overnight under a very heavy pile of large books, or anything larger than the sheets being flat and very heavy. It works.
I have tons of 24x30 FB sheets at home developed that way, all got and remained perfectly flat.
Nice photo by the way !
Starting developing face down is mandatory. Anyway, uneven development with paper is almost impossible : you must leave the sheet in the developer until the development is complete (that is, at least 2 minutes if the exposition under the enlarger was correct). It's not the same logics as it's when developing film.
Always use three clamps to avoid contaminating the baths.
FB sheets must be rinsed for at least one hour under continuously renewed tap water. Washing aids can be helpful but most of the time they're a waste of money. Manage to make something efficient with your shower flexible and your bathtube. Not difficult.
My habit is : I have a fourth tray on the working bench, fully filled with water, and I put the fixed sheet in it so that I can develop other sheets during my developing session. When the session is over I'm usually left with 5-10 sheets bathing in that last tray. I put the chemicals back in the bottles, clean up the bathtube area, put the enlarger away etc, so that I can use the bathtube for rinsing the sheets with nothing else around. Thanks to the shower flexible it's pretty easy to rinse the sheets properly.
There are lots of myths and urban legends about the impossibility of getting flat FB sheets once dried. Ned is right, the key is in the ambiant air.
Yet - there is no need to use any of the multiple sophisticated tricks mentioned around to get the sheets flat just after drying.
Wipe them with a clean sponge, then just let them dry face up on a table (on a cardboard or on a cotton made kitchen towel).
When dry, just put them overnight under a very heavy pile of large books, or anything larger than the sheets being flat and very heavy. It works.
I have tons of 24x30 FB sheets at home developed that way, all got and remained perfectly flat.
Nice photo by the way !
Erik van Straten
Veteran
To get fb-paper flat there are to ways to do it professionally.
1. A dry laminating press - SEAL - big enough. Put in your carefully air-dried print for a few seconds and your print is perfectly flat.
2. A large drying press, Büscher. It must be as large as possible. If not large enough the heating is uneven wich causes bad results.
Erik.
1. A dry laminating press - SEAL - big enough. Put in your carefully air-dried print for a few seconds and your print is perfectly flat.
2. A large drying press, Büscher. It must be as large as possible. If not large enough the heating is uneven wich causes bad results.
Erik.
wells46
Member
You may want to try the single tray method.
http://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/single.htm
Lots of other good info there, too.
http://www.heylloyd.com/technicl/single.htm
Lots of other good info there, too.
grouchos_tash
Well-known
This probably isn't very helpful for you but, when I last used FB paper I had access to a giant heated press thingy. That was the only way to get them flat, well, that's what I was told anyway haha.
bence8810
Well-known
Thanks all for the helpful replies.
I am mostly ok with smaller prints but this 50x60cm was a first and it was hard.
Drying - understood. I won't try any "magic" next time onwards, will just leave them face up on a flat surface.
Since the day i printed it - besides the fact I don't like it due to the lack of whites - I have it hanging in the room. Every morning the print is pretty flat and by the evening it curls up. I guess as the humidity changes in the room - pretty funny. The paper is basically alive.
As for the 4 trays, I can't place that many on my workbench due to the size. I have Dev and Stop side by side and the Fixer one shelf below. When done fixing, i turn the light on and move into the bathroom to wash or just store in the bathtub full of water should I print another one.
I'll do the face down development next time - I believe it will help as stated above.
Since the paper is completely expired and is no good for anything other than practice, I'll use it up without worrying about the outcome and hopefully by the time I go through the 20 sheets I'll learn something.
Will post back for sure!
Thanks again!
Ben
I am mostly ok with smaller prints but this 50x60cm was a first and it was hard.
Drying - understood. I won't try any "magic" next time onwards, will just leave them face up on a flat surface.
Since the day i printed it - besides the fact I don't like it due to the lack of whites - I have it hanging in the room. Every morning the print is pretty flat and by the evening it curls up. I guess as the humidity changes in the room - pretty funny. The paper is basically alive.
As for the 4 trays, I can't place that many on my workbench due to the size. I have Dev and Stop side by side and the Fixer one shelf below. When done fixing, i turn the light on and move into the bathroom to wash or just store in the bathtub full of water should I print another one.
I'll do the face down development next time - I believe it will help as stated above.
Since the paper is completely expired and is no good for anything other than practice, I'll use it up without worrying about the outcome and hopefully by the time I go through the 20 sheets I'll learn something.
Will post back for sure!
Thanks again!
Ben
bence8810
Well-known
Nice photo by the way !
Thank you, I quite like it myself. Here is a 5x7 inch print of the same on Forte Bromofort BSP4 which though expired still works well.
Ben
bence8810
Well-known
That's good for you, wish I had the same.
I have 9 sheets of the 40x50cm, Museum Weight PW14 Glossy Forte.
My dad is hunting for Forte paper for me so hopefully I'll have some soon too!
Ben
newsgrunt
Well-known
not sure if comes in this size but blotter paper with a weight does wonders for drying prints flat. I would use framed screens to dry flattish if I didn't have proper print dryer