karmakamera
Member
Hi
I am a newbie to this forum, greetings to all RF-philes here.
Recently, life is getting harder for user and lover of classic film cameras recently.
Getting stares when you ask for slide film these days at neighbourhood labs, even stranger look when they see the relic (M3) I was carrying.
Signs of the hard time for avid film users these days, businesses are cutting down on services and investing heavily on digital equipment.
Surving labs are even competing with DIY vending machine with memory slots.
Now there's few places to buy film, especially the chromes for my RF and even fewer places in Singapore do E-6 processing.
Like forumers here, I have accumulated enuff manual focus SLR and RF and interchangeable lenses to last me a lifetime , just wondering what a film-less world would be like?
Facing a really uncertain future until the next 50/60+ Megapixel Digital M body or compatible RF arrive.
I am a newbie to this forum, greetings to all RF-philes here.
Recently, life is getting harder for user and lover of classic film cameras recently.
Getting stares when you ask for slide film these days at neighbourhood labs, even stranger look when they see the relic (M3) I was carrying.
Signs of the hard time for avid film users these days, businesses are cutting down on services and investing heavily on digital equipment.
Surving labs are even competing with DIY vending machine with memory slots.
Now there's few places to buy film, especially the chromes for my RF and even fewer places in Singapore do E-6 processing.
Like forumers here, I have accumulated enuff manual focus SLR and RF and interchangeable lenses to last me a lifetime , just wondering what a film-less world would be like?
Facing a really uncertain future until the next 50/60+ Megapixel Digital M body or compatible RF arrive.
Last edited:
F
Frank Granovski
Guest
Welcome to the forums. Here in Vancouver film is still strong, though some labs have shut their doors. I have 2 B&W labs just down the street---'er, avenue---and a large lap that does slides .
sf
Veteran
It's hard. That is why we come here. Band together in hard times. Actually, hard times or not, we'd be here, but welcome to the RFF. Spread the joy.
ErnestoJL
Well-known
Welcome to the forum!
Here in Argentina film is still available, and hopefully for a long time in the future, prices are regular, but the future may drive film prices to the premium level (film would become to be some kind of "delicatessen" in the future as digitals get stronger and better...)
A filmless world?? Not for me until a >>60 Mp full size CCD RF or SLR is on the market at the right price!! It´ll take some time I guess..
Meanwhile I´ll (as well as a lot other people) keep using my heavy, metal made, manual old and trusty RFs and SLRs instead of cheap plastic and inmediately obsolete digitals.
You know? today, digitals aren´t much better than the 110 film cameras in comparison to the same era RFs!
Again, welcome!
Ernesto
Here in Argentina film is still available, and hopefully for a long time in the future, prices are regular, but the future may drive film prices to the premium level (film would become to be some kind of "delicatessen" in the future as digitals get stronger and better...)
A filmless world?? Not for me until a >>60 Mp full size CCD RF or SLR is on the market at the right price!! It´ll take some time I guess..
Meanwhile I´ll (as well as a lot other people) keep using my heavy, metal made, manual old and trusty RFs and SLRs instead of cheap plastic and inmediately obsolete digitals.
You know? today, digitals aren´t much better than the 110 film cameras in comparison to the same era RFs!
Again, welcome!
Ernesto
paulfitz
Established
Hi All! I am a newbie to this forum too. Traditional photog for more than 30 years now, I shoot film and digital. Digital is just not there yet. Can't put my finger on it but I think it's flat midtones and lack of local contrast.
My advice is to learn a little photo chemistry and bulk loading is your friend. Someday, probably not too far off, TMax and Tri-X will become S.O. from Kodak. It will make more economical sense for them just to sell long rolls - way less cost.
Someday us rangefinder fans will be thought of like the old time wet-plate photogs. What still has it for me is that film photography is about delayed gratification and attention to small details - these are things that are becoming as scarce as Kodachrome 25. Digital is here and now.
But that's for the mass market mentality. True photogs who have shot digital and tried to make a 6 color black inkjet print know it's just as hard as traditional darkrooms, and offers much better control in the long run.
I'm with ErnestoJL, until they have at least the equivalent of a 4000 dpi 35mm film scanner in a digital camera, that can render curves as curves instead of steps, I'll keep loading my G and mixing up big batches of D-76, and the occasional Rodinal.
My advice is to learn a little photo chemistry and bulk loading is your friend. Someday, probably not too far off, TMax and Tri-X will become S.O. from Kodak. It will make more economical sense for them just to sell long rolls - way less cost.
Someday us rangefinder fans will be thought of like the old time wet-plate photogs. What still has it for me is that film photography is about delayed gratification and attention to small details - these are things that are becoming as scarce as Kodachrome 25. Digital is here and now.
But that's for the mass market mentality. True photogs who have shot digital and tried to make a 6 color black inkjet print know it's just as hard as traditional darkrooms, and offers much better control in the long run.
I'm with ErnestoJL, until they have at least the equivalent of a 4000 dpi 35mm film scanner in a digital camera, that can render curves as curves instead of steps, I'll keep loading my G and mixing up big batches of D-76, and the occasional Rodinal.
paulfitz
Established
By the way, here in Naples there are TWO E-6 lines offering same day service. Probably because there are so many old timers here.
back alley
IMAGES
lots of film up here.
i just bought a brick of hp5 today!
joe
i just bought a brick of hp5 today!
joe
R
RML
Guest
Filmless world? I'm there already. Film simply no longer holds that much attraction for me anymore after I got the R-D1. I don't need the hassle of having to go to the shop once or twice a week for new film, paying through the nose for developing my colour films, having them sometimes returned scratched/ dev'd wrong/ cut wrongly (and having to pay for the privilege), then scanning them (which takes longer than shooting a roll of film, is tedious and boring) and then having o run through the process of tweaking the scans in PS(P) and saving the originals and the tweaked ones. I'm not even talking about printing some of them. I'm glad that I was able to cut most of the tedious, tiresome, boring and money-wasting parts of the whole process. Now I can concentrate on my shooting again.
karmakamera
Member
Hi Frank
I reckon that the film camera replacement rate / trade-up for digital is
much faster here in Singapore.
In 2003 I have seen 20 somethings trading in the classic RFs / SLRs for
real peanuts at used equipment shops for hi-end 4 megapixel digital cameras
which the brokers won't mind taking back at 10-20% of the original cost.
Most used RF film camera equipment here, however, has not gone down in price since because collectors are buying them up faster than user could get their hands on them.
I reckon that the film camera replacement rate / trade-up for digital is
much faster here in Singapore.
In 2003 I have seen 20 somethings trading in the classic RFs / SLRs for
real peanuts at used equipment shops for hi-end 4 megapixel digital cameras
which the brokers won't mind taking back at 10-20% of the original cost.
Most used RF film camera equipment here, however, has not gone down in price since because collectors are buying them up faster than user could get their hands on them.
waileong
Well-known
...
...
Remember the immortal lines from Star Wars:
"The Jedi are almost extinct now. For a thousand generations they were the protectors of the peace in the old Republic. Before the Dark Times. Before the Empire."
Our weapons are quaint but elegant compared to the crude DSLR's.
===
...
Remember the immortal lines from Star Wars:
"The Jedi are almost extinct now. For a thousand generations they were the protectors of the peace in the old Republic. Before the Dark Times. Before the Empire."
Our weapons are quaint but elegant compared to the crude DSLR's.
===
karmakamera said:Hi
I am a newbie to this forum, greetings to all RF-philes here.
Recently, life is getting harder for user and lover of classic film cameras recently.
Getting stares when you ask for slide film these days at neighbourhood labs, even stranger look when they see the relic (M3) I was carrying.
Signs of the hard time for avid film users these days, businesses are cutting down on services and investing heavily on digital equipment.
Surving labs are even completing with DIY vending machine with memory slots.
Now there's few places to buy film, especially the chromes for my RF and even fewer places in Singapore do E-6 processing.
Like forumers here, I have accumulated enuff manual focus SLR and RF and interchangeable lenses to last me a lifetime , just wondering what a film-less world would be like?
Facing a really uncertain future until the next 50 Megapixel Digital M body or compatible RF arrive.
karmakamera
Member
Hi, I agree to what you have said, if only some niche manufacturers would boldly follow kes the Cosina/Epson RP route like the flexibility of EOS system to allow MF adaptation to Canon Ds.
When digital SLR/MF compatibles are produced in large numbers, film SLR/RF camera bodies to die interchangeable lenses to go obsolete first (if it had not).
Compatible third party RF camera manufacturers like Cosina/Epson will get the niche to expand the market for some years.
While convincing the AF and auto everything generation to go retro could be harder.
Recycling and re-using the vast collection of existing and used interchangeable MF lenses seems to be a more sensible thing to do.
When digital SLR/MF compatibles are produced in large numbers, film SLR/RF camera bodies to die interchangeable lenses to go obsolete first (if it had not).
Compatible third party RF camera manufacturers like Cosina/Epson will get the niche to expand the market for some years.
While convincing the AF and auto everything generation to go retro could be harder.
Recycling and re-using the vast collection of existing and used interchangeable MF lenses seems to be a more sensible thing to do.
karmakamera
Member
Thanks for the warm welcome, Ernesto.
I was fortunate to start in photography in early 80s with Nikon SLRs (FE/FE2 series) during my teens for a couple of years until I sold my Nikons for other worldly pursuits.
My photography have taken a break before the Minolta 7000 arrived and I missed the AF-film SLR era entirely. No regrets here, AF SLR lenses are just too heavy and bulky.
A Canon Prima zoom and an Olympus Mju II had accompanied me until 2001 when my brother gave me an Olympus OM-1 Zuiko with Zuiko 35 f2.8.
My 2 decent mechanical OM-1s and the accompanied small collection of Zuiko prime lenses had rekindled my love for 35mm film photography.
I made my pictures primarily with the 50mm standard lenses and occasionally the 28 or 35mm wide.
Because of my habitual use of prime MF focal length lenses, eventually I crossed the line to RFs when I got my hands on a well used Leica M3 with a 50/f2 cron, one year and about 50 rolls of film later, the M3 and 50/2 was with me while my 2 OMs and zoom equipped Leica R3 SLR cameras sat on the shelf.
At this going rate, my workhorse M3 would soon be on its way to Solms for a major overhaul.
I also own and use a Panasonic DMC F-7, 2MB RF digital cam for 3 years but has no desire to upgrade because I am yet to be convince by a digital camera manufacturer who could re-produce the "feel" of using a classic RF like the M3, Canonet 17 GIII or MF SLR like the mechanical OM-1, Nikon F2 / FM2.
I reckon it would be a long long way before a consumer grade CCD chip could equal or replaced the Kodachrome 64, wish someone could tell me how about many MegaPixel is the 64? Meanwhile, the 2MP digital camera still does a great job for convenient and flash shots but not for serious weekend photography when it gets a seat in my camera bag to double as a Polariod instant cum light meter for my meterless M3.
Admittedly, photographic equipment appreciation is the other interesting half of my kind of photography.
The transition from film to 60mpix CCD would be long and winding ahead, hope it could be backward compatible with my existing arsenal of MF lenses, it would be a shame to leave all these film cams on the shelf just because nobody makes and sell film anymore.
I was fortunate to start in photography in early 80s with Nikon SLRs (FE/FE2 series) during my teens for a couple of years until I sold my Nikons for other worldly pursuits.
My photography have taken a break before the Minolta 7000 arrived and I missed the AF-film SLR era entirely. No regrets here, AF SLR lenses are just too heavy and bulky.
A Canon Prima zoom and an Olympus Mju II had accompanied me until 2001 when my brother gave me an Olympus OM-1 Zuiko with Zuiko 35 f2.8.
My 2 decent mechanical OM-1
s and the accompanied small collection of Zuiko prime lenses had rekindled my love for 35mm film photography. I made my pictures primarily with the 50mm standard lenses and occasionally the 28 or 35mm wide.
Because of my habitual use of prime MF focal length lenses, eventually I crossed the line to RFs when I got my hands on a well used Leica M3 with a 50/f2 cron, one year and about 50 rolls of film later, the M3 and 50/2 was with me while my 2 OMs and zoom equipped Leica R3 SLR cameras sat on the shelf.
At this going rate, my workhorse M3 would soon be on its way to Solms for a major overhaul.
I also own and use a Panasonic DMC F-7, 2MB RF digital cam for 3 years but has no desire to upgrade because I am yet to be convince by a digital camera manufacturer who could re-produce the "feel" of using a classic RF like the M3, Canonet 17 GIII or MF SLR like the mechanical OM-1, Nikon F2 / FM2.
I reckon it would be a long long way before a consumer grade CCD chip could equal or replaced the Kodachrome 64, wish someone could tell me how about many MegaPixel is the 64? Meanwhile, the 2MP digital camera still does a great job for convenient and flash shots but not for serious weekend photography when it gets a seat in my camera bag to double as a Polariod instant cum light meter for my meterless M3.
Admittedly, photographic equipment appreciation is the other interesting half of my kind of photography.
The transition from film to 60mpix CCD would be long and winding ahead, hope it could be backward compatible with my existing arsenal of MF lenses, it would be a shame to leave all these film cams on the shelf just because nobody makes and sell film anymore.
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
While this film crisis unfolds, I can't help but snicker at what I found as a setting in a digital camera (read in either Popular Photography or Rangefinder): film-quality.
Why bother with such a setting if digital is so superior?
Perhaps because there are some who can't admit the obvious... that digital is to film photography what Coke is to wine: just a convenient, poor replacement.
Why bother with such a setting if digital is so superior?
Perhaps because there are some who can't admit the obvious... that digital is to film photography what Coke is to wine: just a convenient, poor replacement.
karmakamera
Member
Hi Paulfiz
Here's to proof a plus point about film camera, RFs especially, battery not included and we do not need to upgrade camera just for the next CCD semiconductor chips, just change the film.
See the 2 digitalized scanned BW untouched shots taken with my meterless RF film cam.
"Statue of the Thousand Hand Thousand Eye KuanYin Bodhisattva", Indoor available light shot, Summicron-M 50/2 Type I,F2.8, 1/15s ? handheld, no flash, backlight challenged. Note that the landscape scan is at higher res, the protrait one is at lower res due to conversion.
When I printed the neg scan for these 2 shots, the 20 something young lady at the lab had told me that the originals could not have been taken with a digital camera. She had noticed the highlighting and shadows details and the "shades of grey".
I am convinced that trained eyes could really tell the difference between CCD and film.
For a start, you will could see little difference with the 2 same photos digitalised at different resolution because the limited resolution of the PC screen you are now looking at.
Digital will have a long way to go and it would be interesting to see how the manufacturers can develop firmware software which could replicate the characteristic of film.
I will give it another 7 to 10 years before 60mpixel becomes mainstream. By then, perhaps a 2 mpixel RF digital camera would be sold for $1.99 with a happy meal purchase at MacDonald's. That will be the day!
Here's to proof a plus point about film camera, RFs especially, battery not included and we do not need to upgrade camera just for the next CCD semiconductor chips, just change the film.
See the 2 digitalized scanned BW untouched shots taken with my meterless RF film cam.
"Statue of the Thousand Hand Thousand Eye KuanYin Bodhisattva", Indoor available light shot, Summicron-M 50/2 Type I,F2.8, 1/15s ? handheld, no flash, backlight challenged. Note that the landscape scan is at higher res, the protrait one is at lower res due to conversion.
When I printed the neg scan for these 2 shots, the 20 something young lady at the lab had told me that the originals could not have been taken with a digital camera. She had noticed the highlighting and shadows details and the "shades of grey".
I am convinced that trained eyes could really tell the difference between CCD and film.
For a start, you will could see little difference with the 2 same photos digitalised at different resolution because the limited resolution of the PC screen you are now looking at.
Digital will have a long way to go and it would be interesting to see how the manufacturers can develop firmware software which could replicate the characteristic of film.
I will give it another 7 to 10 years before 60mpixel becomes mainstream. By then, perhaps a 2 mpixel RF digital camera would be sold for $1.99 with a happy meal purchase at MacDonald's. That will be the day!
Last edited:
karmakamera
Member
waileong said:
Hi Waileong
I have tested an ugly looking cosmetically challenged, scratched and uncoated old Leica-screw mount Elmar 50/3.5 which had probably seen heavy use since after it rolled out of the factory in the 1940s maybe.
Will definately post the color shots here when I could get the neg professionally scanned.
I think we can effectively do a film versus digital shoot out if we shoot the same subject at the same time with the same lens under controlled lighting environment separately on the best digital and film cam. But why would Jedi knights do that?
Last edited:
karmakamera
Member
....Meanwhile I´ll (as well as a lot other people) keep using my heavy, metal made, manual old and trusty RFs and SLRs instead of cheap plastic and inmediately obsolete digitals.
You know? today, digitals aren´t much better than the 110 film cameras in comparison to the same era RFs!
Again, welcome!
Ernesto[/QUOTE]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Ernest, now that you have brought up this quality issue.
Could you remember the short-lived Kodak DISc camera film format ?
It's coincidental that an old timer had recently reminded me of the disposable quality of Polariod and 110, 126 convenience cameras of yesterdays.
We laughed over this when we see the commonality between the quality of those quality of those defunct offerings and the current great digital point and shoot revolution. Interestingly, both has the same sign of planned obsolescence written all over them.
Alas, digital format is staple for the digital age where people from this generation accepts SVGA resolution 800X600 and 1024X768 as standard and the manufacturers actually works this to their advantage. Soon upgrade fatigue would set in and many would just wait untill the 60mp CCD and mass memory storage devices comes into the picture.
At the going rate, APS looks set to be the first film format to bite the dust.
With prices dropping like hell for MF cameras, this would be a very tempting time for RF-philes to break the bank to collect a battlion of built like panzer RF cameras like a couple of M3s, Leica LTMs, Canonet 17s, Minilux, Contax T/T2s, Olympus Mju, XA, lOlympus 35SP, Rollei 35s, Nikon 28/35Ti, Konica Hexar, and maybe a Hassie 500CM !!!!
Imagine a weekend photographer with this kind of collection, it would be a major challenge to load and finish 2 rolls of films to each classic from every manufacturer and genre every year in every camera in the dry box.
It's a shame to leave good cameras film-less in a closet, even if it is just 1. :bang:
You know? today, digitals aren´t much better than the 110 film cameras in comparison to the same era RFs!
Again, welcome!
Ernesto[/QUOTE]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Ernest, now that you have brought up this quality issue.
Could you remember the short-lived Kodak DISc camera film format ?
It's coincidental that an old timer had recently reminded me of the disposable quality of Polariod and 110, 126 convenience cameras of yesterdays.
We laughed over this when we see the commonality between the quality of those quality of those defunct offerings and the current great digital point and shoot revolution. Interestingly, both has the same sign of planned obsolescence written all over them.
Alas, digital format is staple for the digital age where people from this generation accepts SVGA resolution 800X600 and 1024X768 as standard and the manufacturers actually works this to their advantage. Soon upgrade fatigue would set in and many would just wait untill the 60mp CCD and mass memory storage devices comes into the picture.
At the going rate, APS looks set to be the first film format to bite the dust.
With prices dropping like hell for MF cameras, this would be a very tempting time for RF-philes to break the bank to collect a battlion of built like panzer RF cameras like a couple of M3s, Leica LTMs, Canonet 17s, Minilux, Contax T/T2s, Olympus Mju, XA, lOlympus 35SP, Rollei 35s, Nikon 28/35Ti, Konica Hexar, and maybe a Hassie 500CM !!!!
Imagine a weekend photographer with this kind of collection, it would be a major challenge to load and finish 2 rolls of films to each classic from every manufacturer and genre every year in every camera in the dry box.
It's a shame to leave good cameras film-less in a closet, even if it is just 1. :bang:
Polaroid stopped making SX-70 camera 25 years ago when they introduced the 600 line.
They just announced that SX-70 film would be discontinued.
They also posted instructions on how to modify your SX-70 camera to use 600 speed film.
I beat them to it: Put a 1.5x Telephoto Lens on the SX-70, use it with electronic flash, and set the L/D control one stop to Dark.
Point is, think how long it took for Polaroid to finally quit making film for a camera discontinued 25 years ago, and how many 35mm cameras exist for every SX-70 still in use.
They just announced that SX-70 film would be discontinued.
They also posted instructions on how to modify your SX-70 camera to use 600 speed film.
I beat them to it: Put a 1.5x Telephoto Lens on the SX-70, use it with electronic flash, and set the L/D control one stop to Dark.
Point is, think how long it took for Polaroid to finally quit making film for a camera discontinued 25 years ago, and how many 35mm cameras exist for every SX-70 still in use.
karmakamera
Member
Brian Sweeney said:
Hi Brian
My point of reference was the consumer low-end Polariod which I have used during my short stint with the military. Sorry for the opinated statement, it was not meant to challenge Polaroid users like yourself.
With respect, Polariod had lost the most ground to digital cams. It had a market niche, away from the 35mm hot arena where the mainstream manufacturers compete. By their sheer production numbers, you are most right that most cameras disposed are 35mms. Think Canon alone had made and sold the world 30million plus film cameras, some 12million RFs are Canonets!
I am not sure if anyone could show us a still serviceable Kodak disc or a nice 110 or 126 in their collection these days. I think Pentax and Minolta did had a set of quality SLR 110 "toys" with interchangeable lenses. Other 110s 126s which I have seen are really junk. Most 110s were made like throwaways too.
Unless someone has the intention to open a camera museum, won't suppose he would fancy collecting a workable 110 camera without film for display. Agree?
Cheers.
I just meant that Polaroid kept film around for a longtime after discontinuing the camera, and I think film will be around long after I am gone.
My Kodak Instamatic Reflex still works, but getting film for it in the US is hard. The paper-backed 126 never delivered the results that the 35mm Retina-Reflex cameras could.
Same with the Pentax 110 SLR and Minolta 110 SLR: The paper-backed film in the cassette could not do the camera/lens justice. The Minolta 16mm cartidge was much better, it allowed use of a pressure plate. 110 Film is readily available, but I have not shot it in 10 years.
Much of the amateur market has lost ground to digital. Look at the price of lower-end used SLR's these days. A Nikon N70 will fetch ~$80!
With my 7-year old, Polaroid is king. No matter what is pointed at her, she asks for me to get the Polaroid. Went into a camera shop and she announced "Her favorite camera is Polaroid." I use an SLR680 most of the time, but also have a Spectra and Polaroid 180 that I use. The local Ritz sells out-of-date Polaroid for $4 a pack, so I can afford to go to a kids Birthday party and shoot a few packs. Kids love it; I run through at least 40 packs per year. If Polaroid could get their cost to $5 a pack on a regular basis, they would do better. At over $1 per shot, it is not viable compared with digital.
My Kodak Instamatic Reflex still works, but getting film for it in the US is hard. The paper-backed 126 never delivered the results that the 35mm Retina-Reflex cameras could.
Same with the Pentax 110 SLR and Minolta 110 SLR: The paper-backed film in the cassette could not do the camera/lens justice. The Minolta 16mm cartidge was much better, it allowed use of a pressure plate. 110 Film is readily available, but I have not shot it in 10 years.
Much of the amateur market has lost ground to digital. Look at the price of lower-end used SLR's these days. A Nikon N70 will fetch ~$80!
With my 7-year old, Polaroid is king. No matter what is pointed at her, she asks for me to get the Polaroid. Went into a camera shop and she announced "Her favorite camera is Polaroid." I use an SLR680 most of the time, but also have a Spectra and Polaroid 180 that I use. The local Ritz sells out-of-date Polaroid for $4 a pack, so I can afford to go to a kids Birthday party and shoot a few packs. Kids love it; I run through at least 40 packs per year. If Polaroid could get their cost to $5 a pack on a regular basis, they would do better. At over $1 per shot, it is not viable compared with digital.
Last edited:
karmakamera
Member
---------------Brian Sweeney said:
Thanks for clarifying, Brian, I had misunderstood your earlier message, I have lurking in the 35mm domain all the while, 126s were almost all gone when I started and 110 was probably had its swan song.
An the new kid on the block was Kodak disc film format !
Well, 110 and 126 ceased to exist in this part of the world some years ago, reckon if any film would be hard to get in US it would be harder elsewhere.
Meanwhile APS is slowly going going going.....with the number of camera produced, I suppose 35mm would be around for sometime after this thirtysomething is gone.
Cheers