Denton
Established
Hi folks,
I'm wondering how Portra (160 or 400) would fare vs. digital during a wedding in full sun. Of course the problem is the contrast ratio between shadows and sunlit side. In digital, I would expose for highlights (as I've always done). I'm wondering whether film might provide a better shadow detail by slightly overexposing for sunlit side.
I'd be shooting the M9 or Canon 5D on the digital side and an M6 loaded with Portra on the film side.
Oh, and this is not my first wedding...just to avoid any of that advice. I can capture enough images even with film and digital going on!
Looking forward to feedback as my film experience is pretty much BW and pulling/pushing that. I don't have easy access to anything other than C41 at standard development times.
Denton
I'm wondering how Portra (160 or 400) would fare vs. digital during a wedding in full sun. Of course the problem is the contrast ratio between shadows and sunlit side. In digital, I would expose for highlights (as I've always done). I'm wondering whether film might provide a better shadow detail by slightly overexposing for sunlit side.
I'd be shooting the M9 or Canon 5D on the digital side and an M6 loaded with Portra on the film side.
Oh, and this is not my first wedding...just to avoid any of that advice. I can capture enough images even with film and digital going on!
Looking forward to feedback as my film experience is pretty much BW and pulling/pushing that. I don't have easy access to anything other than C41 at standard development times.
Denton
tlitody
Well-known
depends. The film will surely capture it all if you expose for shadows. But then its down to how the lab deal with it. If the contrast is extreme and they scan to print, then there's no telling what you will end up with. Depends how good the lab is at doing their job.
But if you are doing the scanning then you should probably be able to get more from the neg if you have a good scanner.
But having said that, it also depends on which digital camera you are using. Some are better than others so how do we know.
If in doubt expose for the highlights. A few blocked shadows are not as bad as a brides dress which has no detail IMO.
Best policy would be to test your film and post processing beforehand I think.
But if you are doing the scanning then you should probably be able to get more from the neg if you have a good scanner.
But having said that, it also depends on which digital camera you are using. Some are better than others so how do we know.
If in doubt expose for the highlights. A few blocked shadows are not as bad as a brides dress which has no detail IMO.
Best policy would be to test your film and post processing beforehand I think.
Sparrow
Veteran
XP2 is good, either way just don't blow the dress .... first rule :yes:
tlitody
Well-known
Tim Gray
Well-known
The Portras should be able to handle the highlights just fine if you expose properly for the shadows. However, in getting that info to a print/image file will require whoever is scanning to deal with negative in an intelligent manner.
mfogiel
Veteran
If you use a print film like Portra, as a rule you overexpose an incident reading by 1 stop - this way you get shadow details and no grain in the highlights. Besides this, I would say that if you want to impress your clients, you should use a MF camera. The skin tones and round tonality just glow in bigger formats. A Rollei/Hassy Fuji 6x9 or even a Linhof 6x12 will set you apart from the digital crowd.
Faintandfuzzy
Well-known
The new Portra 400 scans very well. Rate around 250 and expose for the shadows on the skin. Richard Photo Lab in LA does a superb job of processing and scanning. Another option is Fuji Pro 400H....which I rate at 160-200, and expose for shadows on skin.
You have more latitude with film....no DSLR can touch that yet....but soem get very close. The latest sensor are very good with DR....but to expose for the highlights means the skintone region is lower down the histogram....and in my opinion don't look at good as film.
You have more latitude with film....no DSLR can touch that yet....but soem get very close. The latest sensor are very good with DR....but to expose for the highlights means the skintone region is lower down the histogram....and in my opinion don't look at good as film.
Sparrow
Veteran
Denton
Established
Thanks for the replies.
Really, the crux of the problem is can film give me more lattitude, with scanning, than digital. For this to be the case, film must capture a wider contrast range and then I must compress the highlights as I will likely need to overexpose. I'd like to do this with standard C41 processing.
Marek, while I'd love to do medium format film, I'd have to pick up a camera for this. At the moment I'm limited to M9 and 5D digital and 35mm film cameras. I've toyed with getting a Fuji 6x7 or 6x9 MF though as I have an Epson 750 scanner.
More advice? Does film with normal processing provide any advantages?
Denton
Really, the crux of the problem is can film give me more lattitude, with scanning, than digital. For this to be the case, film must capture a wider contrast range and then I must compress the highlights as I will likely need to overexpose. I'd like to do this with standard C41 processing.
Marek, while I'd love to do medium format film, I'd have to pick up a camera for this. At the moment I'm limited to M9 and 5D digital and 35mm film cameras. I've toyed with getting a Fuji 6x7 or 6x9 MF though as I have an Epson 750 scanner.
More advice? Does film with normal processing provide any advantages?
Denton
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hipsterdufus
Photographer?
Paid assignment or not? If it's paid, shoot whatever you're most familiar/comfortable with. Whatever gives you the best number of "keepers" on average. I find that the average number of good shots carries over from one photo shoot to the next for each of my cameras.
Unpaid? Shoot whatever you have the most fun with. My $.02
Unpaid? Shoot whatever you have the most fun with. My $.02
Denton
Established
Paid wedding....
I'm comfortable in getting the images the client wants with Canon 5D, 580EXII etx. But during each wedding or portrait session I try to sneak in some new approach or technique as this helps me grow....
I've never been happy with how digital captures these sunny/shade contrasts and these are hard conditions, but I thought film might be fun to compare and maybe I can then use it more often to solve this problem.
Denton
I'm comfortable in getting the images the client wants with Canon 5D, 580EXII etx. But during each wedding or portrait session I try to sneak in some new approach or technique as this helps me grow....
I've never been happy with how digital captures these sunny/shade contrasts and these are hard conditions, but I thought film might be fun to compare and maybe I can then use it more often to solve this problem.
Denton
mfogiel
Veteran
When shooting C41, you overexpose 1 stop and do standard lab processing, the film takes care of the highlights compression easily. You can overexpose print film by 3 or 4 stops before the highlights get blown out.
tlitody
Well-known
flatbed scanning 135 film will give poorer quality than your M9 or your 5D. I would stick to digital if that's the way you intend to digitise your film.
Yes film will capture a greater range if you get your exposure right but throwing away the quality of digital capture compared to a V750 doesn't make sense to me when you can expose the dress and face perfectly with either of those two cameras in any light.
Use some fill flash to bolster the shadows and you won't have a problem with the grooms dark suit and digital capture. And post will be a lot easier with no scanning.
And if it's bright full on sun you should be using some fill flash anyway so I think you are worrying too much about subject range.
bobbyrab
Well-known
I shoot weddings with 5D mark 2's and a Leica m6 with xp2, the film always handles extreme contrasts much much better than the 5d's, and I just ask my lab to scan with as little contrast as possible and on the dark side, then I adjust the file to taste. I don't usually mix colour film in though as trying to keep the colours reasonably close to the digital is too difficult, and I don't like the images jumping around too much.
Denton
Established
I don't quite agree that using fill flash is the answer for this event when I cannot pose the bride to minimize sun on the dress. Adding fill flash from the camera lens perspective raises BOTH highlights and shadow as the flash is hitting both. I think we normally don't notice this additive effect and ignore the blown highlights....But, with a white dress, this is noticeable as another responder indicated.
My problem with fill flash is that you are not exposing for the shadows at that point. If you meter with flash ETTL, its very important that the highlights not exceed the camera range otherwise the canon matix metering fails. This is one of the main reasons folks complain that ETTL does not work wth flash as advertised, it's not used properly by exceeding the sensor range and whites are pushed too far. So in short, fill flash doesn't solve contrast ranges, it just raises shadows, IMHO.
I do prefer digital full-frame capture to scanning 35mm film in my normal workflow, however, resolution is not at issue here as it seldom is for wedding prints where they might appear in small sizes for an album. The issue is print range.
Denton
Denton
My problem with fill flash is that you are not exposing for the shadows at that point. If you meter with flash ETTL, its very important that the highlights not exceed the camera range otherwise the canon matix metering fails. This is one of the main reasons folks complain that ETTL does not work wth flash as advertised, it's not used properly by exceeding the sensor range and whites are pushed too far. So in short, fill flash doesn't solve contrast ranges, it just raises shadows, IMHO.
I do prefer digital full-frame capture to scanning 35mm film in my normal workflow, however, resolution is not at issue here as it seldom is for wedding prints where they might appear in small sizes for an album. The issue is print range.
Denton
Denton
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Denton
Established
tlitody
Well-known
About fill flash:
if you take a subject range of 10 stops.
The left column is a zone setting. The right hand column is units of light.
Now if the dress is to be exposed on zone 7 it gets 64 units of light. Then if you set your fill flash to give two stops less than that it will add 16 units of light. 16 units of light added to zone 7 makes 80 which is a very small addition, a 1/3 stop max. But 16 unites of light added to a zone 2 shadow will lift it up to around zone 5. Fill flash lifts shadows much more than it lifts highlights. And 16 units of light added to zone 8 will be imperceptible.
So your understanding of fill lighting needs to be reconsidered. It makes only a tiny difference to highlights if you set it two stops below incident or spot reading. If you only set it one stop below, then it makes a bigger difference. But if you only want it to affect deep shadows then you can set it at 3 stops below and it will lift a zone 2 value to zone 4 with no noticeable difference to the dress.
The exposure scale is exponential not linear.
if you take a subject range of 10 stops.
The left column is a zone setting. The right hand column is units of light.
Now if the dress is to be exposed on zone 7 it gets 64 units of light. Then if you set your fill flash to give two stops less than that it will add 16 units of light. 16 units of light added to zone 7 makes 80 which is a very small addition, a 1/3 stop max. But 16 unites of light added to a zone 2 shadow will lift it up to around zone 5. Fill flash lifts shadows much more than it lifts highlights. And 16 units of light added to zone 8 will be imperceptible.
So your understanding of fill lighting needs to be reconsidered. It makes only a tiny difference to highlights if you set it two stops below incident or spot reading. If you only set it one stop below, then it makes a bigger difference. But if you only want it to affect deep shadows then you can set it at 3 stops below and it will lift a zone 2 value to zone 4 with no noticeable difference to the dress.
The exposure scale is exponential not linear.
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Denton
Established
Paddy C
Unused film collector
Some links for you. Here are two guys (you probably know them) who shoot film (MF). You can get a feel for how film is handling the light.
http://canlasphotography.blogspot.com/
http://josevillablog.com/
Here's a comparison of film and digital that might help you out:
http://www.twinlenslife.com/2011/01/digital-vs-film-canon-5d-mark-ii-vs.html
IMHO, the V750 will not produce acceptable results for 35mm. For screen viewing it's fine, but not for anything else (I have a V700).
If I were in your place I would consider a trial run and send the film off for developing and scanning at a lab that really knows how to do it. Like Richard Photo Lab. That way you'll be getting the best out of film and you can make a well-informed decision.
http://canlasphotography.blogspot.com/
http://josevillablog.com/
Here's a comparison of film and digital that might help you out:
http://www.twinlenslife.com/2011/01/digital-vs-film-canon-5d-mark-ii-vs.html
IMHO, the V750 will not produce acceptable results for 35mm. For screen viewing it's fine, but not for anything else (I have a V700).
If I were in your place I would consider a trial run and send the film off for developing and scanning at a lab that really knows how to do it. Like Richard Photo Lab. That way you'll be getting the best out of film and you can make a well-informed decision.
Colin Corneau
Colin Corneau
Either way, why not use reflectors to balance out the shadows and highlights?
I've used fill flash off-camera wirelessly (a breeze with the 5D & speedlights) to do the same but it's nice working much more quickly with reflectors and a trusty assistant.
Seems this approach plus Portra films would help your situation.
I've used fill flash off-camera wirelessly (a breeze with the 5D & speedlights) to do the same but it's nice working much more quickly with reflectors and a trusty assistant.
Seems this approach plus Portra films would help your situation.