Film washing temperature

Rayt

Rayt

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Hi Tom, You shoot more b/w film than anyone else I know so maybe you can answer this because I can't find a definitive answer from searching. I am in Hong Kong and in the summer the water out of the tap can get pretty warm. For film processing I can use ice and keep the small tank in a tub of cool water to stabilize the temperture at 68 degrees but what about the wash? The tap here can get over 85 degrees. Will this be a problem? Thanks, Ray
 
Two Rays looking at the same issue.

I was just on the phone 2 days ago with Greg Mironchuk, on his web-site he wrote this:

"[SIZE=+1]Wash water MUST be kept at the same temperature as the developer, water stop, and fixer. If you wash in water at "tap temperature"... which is usually around 20 degrees cooler than developer temps... you will suddenly contract the thin gelatin emulsion, and that will cause grain clumping. If you want the finest grain available in a modern film... then temper your wash water."[/SIZE]

So the question was what if the tap water was warmer than the developer environment ?

I called and he said that warmer water could cause reticulation and increase the grain.

That's a plausible explanation but it didn't solve my immediate problem of HC-110 & Dilution H causing lots of hugh grains in Legacy Pro 400, more so than Arista Premium 400.


raytoei
 
Not just two rays but two ray t's. I noticed there was a problem when I noticed a loss of tonality and increase in grain. I couldn't guarantee constant and accurate 68 degrees for the entire 14 minutes so thought that might have been the error. I under developed in my bid to compensate but I should try harder to avoid slop and maintain some quality control. I guess either I send the film out for the summer or I will shoot C41.
 
While we are waiting for Tom: I have a similar problem in mid-summer, and my solution is to cool three litres of water in jugs by adding ice. That gives me enough water for washing the film using the Ilford method (fill, invert x5; fill, invert x 10; fill, invert x 20). It seems to work fine.
 
Interesting stuff on this thread. I was never aware that inconsistent temperatures for wash water had such a large effect on the negatives. I admit when I wash my negatives I don't really pay attention to the temperature of the water out of sheer laziness. Similar to Rayt, some of my images are quite flat and have lots of grain, which I had attributed to the quality loss experienced when scanning film. I don't mind the grain and the other issues can be addressed through some curve adjustment when post-processing so it's never really bothered me. I suspect I need to pay more attention in the future though, once I get my darkroom up and running.

Chris, I understand exactly what you mean. It's absolute hell trying to keep consistent temperatures in a Queensland summer!
 
ChrisN said:
While we are waiting for Tom: I have a similar problem in mid-summer, and my solution is to cool three litres of water in jugs by adding ice. That gives me enough water for washing the film using the Ilford method (fill, invert x5; fill, invert x 10; fill, invert x 20). It seems to work fine.
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I follow a similar regime to that which Chris uses. We get extended periods over 40C here in summer (sometimes with days over 45C) and the tapwater is also often of poor quality at those times. So I add blocks of frozen deionised water to a 20L contianer of distilled water until it is within a degree or two of my developing temperature.

Grain is an issue when your wash water temperature varies. With modern film you have to work REALLY hard to get proper reticulation; students I know have tried and got grainy negs of poor tonality, but over 30C to 4C was what they found they needed to properly reticulate Kodak, Fuji and Agfa films. Efke and Foma were easier.

It's cold here in winter too and I make up large quantities of warmed deionised water. I do this in pyrex cotainers in the microwave because using metal containers on the stove caused my Xtol to do funny things, probably from ions in the solution from the pot, or from reactions between residual ions in the water and the pot.

Marty
 
Freakscene said:
I follow a similar regime to that which Chris uses. We get extended periods over 40C here in summer (sometimes with days over 45C) and the tapwater is also often of poor quality at those times. So I add blocks of frozen deionised water to a 20L contianer of distilled water until it is within a degree or two of my developing temperature.
It's cold here in winter too and I make up large quantities of warmed deionised water. I do this in pyrex cotainers in the microwave because using metal containers on the stove caused my Xtol to do funny things, probably from ions in the solution from the pot, or from reactions between residual ions in the water and the pot.

Marty
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Nobody in Australia will have a problem cooling wash water. We've all got big beer fridges! Sometimes we even put film in them. Actually in Sydney we must be blessed with fewer extremes because I've never paid much attention to this topic (except the time I did my final wash hooked up to the hot water tap instead of the cold.). The effects on the emulsion were amazing!

I'm aware of it as an issue, of course, but now I'm wondering what the tolerance bandwidth is. It's too simple to say it must be "excactly" the temperature of the developer - film can be developed satisfactorily within a range of temperatures so there must be some inbuilt tolerance there. So what are the limits? + or - 5C? + or - 10C? Does anyone have any real data?
 
There are of course tolerances, from ilford's id-11 datasheet

STOP, FIX, WASH and RINSE
For best results it is recommended that all process
solutions are kept at the same temperature or at
least within 5oC (9oF) of the developer
temperature.
 
The quote cited above points out the danger of plunging film into a bath, whether a wash or any other solution, that is much colder than the previous one. The effect of going from one bath into a warmer one is less severe. I have had no troubles when going from the hypo to a warmer wash, say from 68 degrees to 75 or even 80. But I would not go from that wash back into a colder hypo clearing bath, or wetting agent. I use the method Chris suggested-- keeping some cool water on hand for the wash. I do this by keeping some water in a container in the basement. The HVAC ducts run through my darkroom, keeping the darkroom bracingly cold in the summer, warm in winter. I shorten the wash time by using a clearing agent. A small fridge in my darkroom allows me to chill any solutions that are too warm.
 
I did some testing of that this winter. I develop in 20C, and washed in around 5C. I tested washing at 5 and washing with 20. I couldn't tell the difference with a loupe on the light box, nor with a grain scope under my enlarger.
 
dfoo

I did some testing of that this winter. I develop in 20C, and washed in around 5C. I tested washing at 5 and washing with 20. I couldn't tell the difference with a loupe on the light box, nor with a grain scope under my enlarger.
__________________
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I suspect reticulation is a bit like the yeti, it gets talked abut a lot but actual sightings are few and inconclusive …
 
Interesting. I had heard of the possibility of retriculation from going to a significanly cooler temp anywhere in the process, but that is usually at the wash. The only problem I had heard about too warm, was melting the emulsion. I didn't know you could get retriculation from warmer water.
 
Use the water bath water to do the initial wash of the film, and finish with fresh water which you chilled with ice.

All it takes to wash film is about a liter and a half with Ilfords wash sequence. Fill tank, pull film in and out ten times, change water, repeat, change water, 20 cycles in and out.

Use a lift rod, use a plastic tank with lots of head room space, or use a two reel tank with only one reel and an emplty spacer reel on the top. All serve the same purpose as lifting in and out.

Been doing it that way for decades with no ill effect. Do not add hardener to fix or you prolong film wash by a large factor.


http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/200629163442455.pdf

All described in the very last sentence of the PDF link
 
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It is actually quite hard to get modern films to reticulate like they used to. I had a student really get into it and it took a surprisingly huge temperature change to get anything to happen- even without hardener in the fixer. From hottest water out of the tap to ice water didn't do nearly the same thing as I used to get when the hot water in my first darkroom ran out. He ended up using sodium carbonate (am I recalling this right?) to assist in getting reticulation.
 
Yes, a sudden pH shock will help to reticulate. Carbonate or hydroxide will work.

I did a series of experiments, looking at the grain structure at 500x using a microscope and analysing it statistically and found that 2-3C difference made no practical difference, but that keeping everything as closer together, temperature wise, as you can is better. In that experiment I developed with Xtol, which may influence the outcome because it is "weakly alkaline". I have heard from careful workers that Rodinal gets noticeably grainier if used at over 20C. I haven't experimented with that, but it makes sense. So keep everything at as even a temperature as close to 20C as you can.

Marty
 
Freakscene said:
I have heard from careful workers that Rodinal gets noticeably grainier if used at over 20C. I haven't experimented with that, but it makes sense.
Marty
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I have experienced similar with Rodinal but I put the 'graininess' down to overdevelopment as a result of the warmer (hence faster) working developer rather than the effects of temperature alone. I think you can get that grain effect even from 20C solutions if you extend the development too much. Might be a chicken and egg situation there.
 
I live in the tropics and routinely develop my negs using water straight from the tap, which comes out at between 28 to 30 degrees celcius. I compensate for the shorter development times by using higher levels of dilution for my developer (which works out nicely to help me save on developer). I don't see much difference compared to back when I used to slavishly cool everything to 20 degrees with ice. In fact, I think that now at least I get consistent, reproducible results.

I use mainly HC110 @ 1:100 and Tmax Developer at 1:9. If anyone is interested, I can share the exact timings and dilutions. I've got them on my flickr too (username is photokalia).
 
The wash has zero effect on granularity, no matter what the temperature. I mean, what is H2O going to do to developed silver?

It is hard to cause reticulation. I mean really hard. The best way is too chemically induce it.

The problem with too hot a wash is that water is absorbed into the emulsion too readily. At what temperature this becomes a problem, I am unsure. I would look at reducing wash time by using a hypo clearing agent. I would also use a two-bath line to wash off the chemicals coating the film and then use a slightly shorter wash to finish the film.

I don't think you have a real problem. However, you could run a test roll to see--you would need to buy a new camera or lens to justify a test roll though. :D
 
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