Johnmcd
Well-known
Well I took a test roll today with mixed results. I was focussing with the rangefinder then composing with the 6x9 jury-rigged sports finder. All shot at f8 and 1/250
First shot. Focussed on wharf.
Second shot. Focussed on wharf again. background in focus.
Third shot. Tried for a close up to test the parallax error on the sports finder. Slight back focus here.
Last image taken. Focussed on front guy's face yet the other guy is sharp in the face. The front guy's left arm is also in focus?? Is this normal DOF for f8? It seems quite shallow.
Now I know that I could test the focus accuracy against the glass screen. But does anyone have any ideas why it could be so out of whack? And why each of the images shows different areas of focus? And why does f8 have such a narrow DOF? Or is the this the nature of 4x5?
The other four images were all out of focus to some degree. I really enjoyed using it but got to get these focus right if it is to become a regular user.
Cheers - John
First shot. Focussed on wharf.
Second shot. Focussed on wharf again. background in focus.
Third shot. Tried for a close up to test the parallax error on the sports finder. Slight back focus here.
Last image taken. Focussed on front guy's face yet the other guy is sharp in the face. The front guy's left arm is also in focus?? Is this normal DOF for f8? It seems quite shallow.
Now I know that I could test the focus accuracy against the glass screen. But does anyone have any ideas why it could be so out of whack? And why each of the images shows different areas of focus? And why does f8 have such a narrow DOF? Or is the this the nature of 4x5?
The other four images were all out of focus to some degree. I really enjoyed using it but got to get these focus right if it is to become a regular user.
Cheers - John
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Focus errors on these things can be quite dramatic John. When I got mine the rangefinder was a fair way out and I spent some time adjusting it on a tripod using a loupe on the rear screen. I gather it has the correct lens on it for the RF cam that's in it?
What I'm looking at with yours is pretty much what mine was doing when I first used it focusing with the rangefinder ... I was focused on the faces in this shot and it's obviously focused well behind that point!
What I'm looking at with yours is pretty much what mine was doing when I first used it focusing with the rangefinder ... I was focused on the faces in this shot and it's obviously focused well behind that point!
Johnmcd
Well-known
Hi Keith,
Thanks for the swift reply. I'm not sure how to tell if the cam is correct. The lens is a 135 Xenar.
Next question is, how do adjust the RF? What is troubling is the fact that it seems to be at one moment way out, then quite close (shells and two men).
Cheers - John
Thanks for the swift reply. I'm not sure how to tell if the cam is correct. The lens is a 135 Xenar.
Next question is, how do adjust the RF? What is troubling is the fact that it seems to be at one moment way out, then quite close (shells and two men).
Cheers - John
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Well, do test with the ground glass - that film back might have the wrong or a missing pressure plate. And check whether the camera is all parallel and not warped, by photographing a brick wall or some other suitable parallel structure.
Overall, the cam or the rangefinder adjustment are more suspect - but you can't tell as long as none of the alternatives can be excluded.
Overall, the cam or the rangefinder adjustment are more suspect - but you can't tell as long as none of the alternatives can be excluded.
Johnmcd
Well-known
Good advice Sevo. Maybe the lens plate is not square? I'll do the brick shot next and see what I get.
Thanks - John
ChrisN
Striving
Hi John
The cams (and lenses) are listed at: http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/top-rangefinder-cams.html
Do you know how to find the cam? Assuming your camera has the top-mounted rangefinder, the cam is in the base of the rangefinder mechanism. Have a look inside the top of the body, above where the bellows stores. There's a metal flap, spring-loaded, and hinged. You can push that down to expose the cam and associated mechanism.
I've shot a few rolls with the Graflex 6x9 back and found it didn't keep the film very flat. Apparently some backs are better than others.
The cams (and lenses) are listed at: http://www.graflex.org/speed-graphic/top-rangefinder-cams.html
Do you know how to find the cam? Assuming your camera has the top-mounted rangefinder, the cam is in the base of the rangefinder mechanism. Have a look inside the top of the body, above where the bellows stores. There's a metal flap, spring-loaded, and hinged. You can push that down to expose the cam and associated mechanism.
I've shot a few rolls with the Graflex 6x9 back and found it didn't keep the film very flat. Apparently some backs are better than others.
Johnmcd
Well-known
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the info on the cams. I'll do some fiddling tomorrow. The film flatness is a clue to the weird focus points all over the image of the two men. If the front guy's elbow is in focus shouldn't his face be also?
Lots to think about.
Cheers - John
Mr_Flibble
In Tabulas Argenteas Refero
Right, check the focus indication on the rails with your ground glass. Adjusting the cam for the RF should not be too tricky. Probably just the screw the cam leans against.
As to why it is out of whack? The lens currently on it might not have been the original one it the RF was adjusted for.
Someone might've dropped the camera.
Maybe the Graflock back was added later, causing a slight shift in film/lens distance (I had this problem with my Baby Graflex).
Anyway, the shots already looks promising.
As to why it is out of whack? The lens currently on it might not have been the original one it the RF was adjusted for.
Someone might've dropped the camera.
Maybe the Graflock back was added later, causing a slight shift in film/lens distance (I had this problem with my Baby Graflex).
Anyway, the shots already looks promising.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Later "pin rollers" types are better than the earlier ones. In my experience worst are the ones where the crate and insert don't match.
KenR
Well-known
I think that the depth of field at f8 is quite limited. Besides checking the rangefinder, try stopping down to f16. Also the is this whole body of literature about using front and back tilts to optimize the depth of field by changing the plane of focus. Look in Viewcamera.com for articles.
venchka
Veteran
1. Lens focal length and infinty stops on rail match? Do you have infinity stops? Check infinity focus on ground glass. Is the focus distance scale present near the front of the rails? Is the pointer at infinity?
2. Top or side mounted rangefinder? I know there are adjustment instructions for the side mounted Kalart rangefinder online.
3. Crowns & Speeds have very limited front movements and ZERO rear movements as I understand things. Check to see if the lensboard and film plane are reasonably square. They usually are.
4. Don't move. You or your subjects. This is a whole new ball game. Fast film. Tmax 400 rated at 800 for openers. 1/200 or 1/400 if you can @ f/16 or thereabouts should work.
Have fun!
Wayne
2. Top or side mounted rangefinder? I know there are adjustment instructions for the side mounted Kalart rangefinder online.
3. Crowns & Speeds have very limited front movements and ZERO rear movements as I understand things. Check to see if the lensboard and film plane are reasonably square. They usually are.
4. Don't move. You or your subjects. This is a whole new ball game. Fast film. Tmax 400 rated at 800 for openers. 1/200 or 1/400 if you can @ f/16 or thereabouts should work.
Have fun!
Wayne
Gumby
Veteran
Wayne offeres the advise I was going to give.
Suggest checking the current set-up before making adjustments: verify infinity stops against GG and verify rangefinder against GG. Then set up the infinity stops correctly before adjusting rangefinder.
Most importantly, though is Wayne's point #4... athough I think he is a bit extreme in the recco. I'd suggest puting your camera on tripod and use cable release for your testing and take the human jitters out of hte equation.
Suggest checking the current set-up before making adjustments: verify infinity stops against GG and verify rangefinder against GG. Then set up the infinity stops correctly before adjusting rangefinder.
Most importantly, though is Wayne's point #4... athough I think he is a bit extreme in the recco. I'd suggest puting your camera on tripod and use cable release for your testing and take the human jitters out of hte equation.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I remember with my Crown Graphic that the film plane has to be really precise. I had my glass and freznel arse about face and set the rangefinder up with them like this ...bad!
Had to start again from scratch once I worked out what the hell I'd done!
They are a fun camera though ... the Briggs and Stratton of 4x5 IMO!
Had to start again from scratch once I worked out what the hell I'd done!
They are a fun camera though ... the Briggs and Stratton of 4x5 IMO!
Moto-Uno
Moto-Uno
Having similar problems with my Busch Pressman D ,I found this site "www.xs4all.nl/~lommen9/kalart/new.html" which goes into easy to follow alignment procedures. After using 35mm it's hard to believe just how shallow the depth of field is on 4x5. Unfortunately I have no experience with the 6x9 backs. My Busch also came with the Wollensack 135 Optar and in spite of common criticism can give fine images.
Regards,Peter
Regards,Peter
Vics
Veteran
From my reading of your question, I think that you must remember that DOF is controlled by three factors: lens aperture, lens focal length and camera-to-subject (the object you focus on) distance. All your pics were shot at different distances, so the DOF was naturally different from one shot to the next. I can't comment on the focus error issues because I'm not familiar with press camera mechanics. I really liked the picture of the two guys.
kuzano
Veteran
Film Plane = to Focus Plane
Film Plane = to Focus Plane
I fought my first 4x5 (pulled it out of a box of LF stuff at Columbus Camera Group, better known as the Old Church/bazaar/camera gear place) like crazy for focus until I found the problem... Ground Glass in backward and slightly out of location by a freznel on the wrong side of the GG, totally throwing off the GG location by the thickness of the GG AND the freznel.
I fought almost exactly the same problems you show here. Ultimately after a lot of tinkering, accompanied by beer and swearing, I found out the GG was in the camera backward, and the film holders had the film the thickness of the GG out of focus. Turned it around .... started getting some good shots.
So, it is critical that the film holder hold the film plane in exactly the same location as the ground side (or focus) side of the ground glass. Usually you have to match the location of the GG in the camera body to the holder you are using. That's the next task... while they should be uniform, do the various holders you are using all match in depth of the film from the surface that mates to the camera.
While I like Graflex and shoot a Super Graphic, unfortunately these old cameras have seen tons of fiddling and dis-assembly in their lives. So care is necessary to make sure the final film plane when loaded into the camera ends up in exactly the same location as the focus was adjusted to. If you are using a rangefinder, it does no good to calibrate the RF to the GG, unless you know for certain, the film is going to end up in that location.
As far as roll film holders, there are various ones out there, but the most likely accurate one for a Graflex will be a Graflex or a Singer made for Graflex. It is good to have the extra pin rollers on the inside of the holder at each end of the opening in the base. These were added to flatten the film, and run crossways at each end of the opening to take the curve out of the film. The pin rollers were added to the Graflex 4X5 backs toward the last of the knob wind rollers. My preference is a knob wind insert in a back with the pin rollers. The lever wind springs by now are often week, leaving the lever hanging out in the wind to catch on shirt sleeves and such.
For cams and such, you may want to contact Fred Lustig... The "go to guy" for old graflex. He is in Reno Nv in the telephone listings there. He has had a couple of health setbacks, but I have had work done by him in the last couple of years.
So, again, I think your problem is registration/calibration so the film is in the exact same location as the focus plane. You won't be able to calibrate your rangefinder properly until you know sliding the film holder is in place accomplishes that task.
Summarizing, I'd say shoot using Ground Glass focus until you are confident with focus. Then work with matching the rangefinder up to the GG and film placement.
Film Plane = to Focus Plane
I fought my first 4x5 (pulled it out of a box of LF stuff at Columbus Camera Group, better known as the Old Church/bazaar/camera gear place) like crazy for focus until I found the problem... Ground Glass in backward and slightly out of location by a freznel on the wrong side of the GG, totally throwing off the GG location by the thickness of the GG AND the freznel.
I fought almost exactly the same problems you show here. Ultimately after a lot of tinkering, accompanied by beer and swearing, I found out the GG was in the camera backward, and the film holders had the film the thickness of the GG out of focus. Turned it around .... started getting some good shots.
So, it is critical that the film holder hold the film plane in exactly the same location as the ground side (or focus) side of the ground glass. Usually you have to match the location of the GG in the camera body to the holder you are using. That's the next task... while they should be uniform, do the various holders you are using all match in depth of the film from the surface that mates to the camera.
While I like Graflex and shoot a Super Graphic, unfortunately these old cameras have seen tons of fiddling and dis-assembly in their lives. So care is necessary to make sure the final film plane when loaded into the camera ends up in exactly the same location as the focus was adjusted to. If you are using a rangefinder, it does no good to calibrate the RF to the GG, unless you know for certain, the film is going to end up in that location.
As far as roll film holders, there are various ones out there, but the most likely accurate one for a Graflex will be a Graflex or a Singer made for Graflex. It is good to have the extra pin rollers on the inside of the holder at each end of the opening in the base. These were added to flatten the film, and run crossways at each end of the opening to take the curve out of the film. The pin rollers were added to the Graflex 4X5 backs toward the last of the knob wind rollers. My preference is a knob wind insert in a back with the pin rollers. The lever wind springs by now are often week, leaving the lever hanging out in the wind to catch on shirt sleeves and such.
For cams and such, you may want to contact Fred Lustig... The "go to guy" for old graflex. He is in Reno Nv in the telephone listings there. He has had a couple of health setbacks, but I have had work done by him in the last couple of years.
So, again, I think your problem is registration/calibration so the film is in the exact same location as the focus plane. You won't be able to calibrate your rangefinder properly until you know sliding the film holder is in place accomplishes that task.
Summarizing, I'd say shoot using Ground Glass focus until you are confident with focus. Then work with matching the rangefinder up to the GG and film placement.
graywolf
Well-known
They seem to be assuming that everything is more or less correctly adjusted.
First, actually DOF is pretty shallow, about the same as it would be with a 135 on a 45mm camera (a bit better, but not much).
Second the ground glass focus has to be correct. The Fresnel should be towards the lens with the ridges towards the ground glass. The ground side of the glass should face the lens.
Third you need to make sure you have the right focus scale for your specific lens.
Fourth the infinity stops should be set in the correct place. Not sure on a top mount RF but the side mount infinity should be with the lens racked out about 1/8" (3mm).
Fifth the rangefinder needs to be properly adjusted. Once again, I have no experience with a top mounted RF, but you need to make sure you have the proper cam to start with.
When I got my current Side Mount RF Crown Graphic, everything that could be set up wrong was set up wrong. That meant I had to start by making sure the ground glass setup was correctly, then going from there.
See this on my press camera web pages http://www.graywolfphoto.com/presscameras/focus.html
What you have to realize with these old cameras is that one they seem simple to setup when they actually are not, and because of that they usually have been screwdrivered to death by previous owners.
Actually, a lot of the experts, in my experience, do not know what they are doing either. For instance there are 3 different focus scales for the 135mm lens, if you have the wrong one your scale will not match your lenss. The are for 133.5, 135. and 136.5mm focal lengths. Yep there was that much difference between supposedly identical lenses back then. I had replaced mine at a rather great expense ($25) to actually match the measured focal length, and when the camera got sent in to an expert graphic repairman, he replaced it with the 135mm one, and of course did not return the one that was on the camera. He also did not fix the rangefinder which is what he was supposed to do.
First, actually DOF is pretty shallow, about the same as it would be with a 135 on a 45mm camera (a bit better, but not much).
Second the ground glass focus has to be correct. The Fresnel should be towards the lens with the ridges towards the ground glass. The ground side of the glass should face the lens.
Third you need to make sure you have the right focus scale for your specific lens.
Fourth the infinity stops should be set in the correct place. Not sure on a top mount RF but the side mount infinity should be with the lens racked out about 1/8" (3mm).
Fifth the rangefinder needs to be properly adjusted. Once again, I have no experience with a top mounted RF, but you need to make sure you have the proper cam to start with.
When I got my current Side Mount RF Crown Graphic, everything that could be set up wrong was set up wrong. That meant I had to start by making sure the ground glass setup was correctly, then going from there.
See this on my press camera web pages http://www.graywolfphoto.com/presscameras/focus.html
What you have to realize with these old cameras is that one they seem simple to setup when they actually are not, and because of that they usually have been screwdrivered to death by previous owners.
Actually, a lot of the experts, in my experience, do not know what they are doing either. For instance there are 3 different focus scales for the 135mm lens, if you have the wrong one your scale will not match your lenss. The are for 133.5, 135. and 136.5mm focal lengths. Yep there was that much difference between supposedly identical lenses back then. I had replaced mine at a rather great expense ($25) to actually match the measured focal length, and when the camera got sent in to an expert graphic repairman, he replaced it with the 135mm one, and of course did not return the one that was on the camera. He also did not fix the rangefinder which is what he was supposed to do.
Brian Legge
Veteran
Oh the joys of getting the infinity stops set up and the rangefinder adjusted when neither starts out correct. I spent several days sorting this out with a 2x3 graphic... still not totally happy with the results but I need soon and have put off additional work until after it gets back.
Basically, what you are struggling with probably ought to be expected if you're using the rangefinder to focus and are using a camera with an unknown history.
Here is an example where the focus was off slightly off. I was around f/4 up close. I also blew the parallax compensation though I'm okay with the results here. Its from my first roll using the camera so I'm still adjusting to it:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cannelbrae/7134893949
Edit: Which graphic are you using? If its 2x3, I'm not sure if the rangefinder can be adjusted for 135mm. I'm pretty sure the range ends around 105mm. Other cameras can be cammed for multiple ranges of focal lengths but I don't believe any of the Graphics can? A 135mm would be in the rangefinder range for a 3x4 graphic I believe.
Basically, what you are struggling with probably ought to be expected if you're using the rangefinder to focus and are using a camera with an unknown history.
Here is an example where the focus was off slightly off. I was around f/4 up close. I also blew the parallax compensation though I'm okay with the results here. Its from my first roll using the camera so I'm still adjusting to it:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cannelbrae/7134893949
Edit: Which graphic are you using? If its 2x3, I'm not sure if the rangefinder can be adjusted for 135mm. I'm pretty sure the range ends around 105mm. Other cameras can be cammed for multiple ranges of focal lengths but I don't believe any of the Graphics can? A 135mm would be in the rangefinder range for a 3x4 graphic I believe.
kuzano
Veteran
Pictures of the PIN roller backs...
Pictures of the PIN roller backs...
To verify that the back has the chrome pin rollers for film flatness, you must inspect the inside of the back... not the film insert. The rollers are in the ends of the film opening IN the large portion of the back.
Here are a couple of pics of the actual pin rollers. These are both currently on eBay at present.
Most sellers do NOT understand the value of the rollers, and do not provide pics of the back without the film insert installed. Note that these two examples both have knob wind inserts, so must be late knob wind, unless they were installed from and earlier back.
Pictures of the PIN roller backs...
To verify that the back has the chrome pin rollers for film flatness, you must inspect the inside of the back... not the film insert. The rollers are in the ends of the film opening IN the large portion of the back.
Here are a couple of pics of the actual pin rollers. These are both currently on eBay at present.
Most sellers do NOT understand the value of the rollers, and do not provide pics of the back without the film insert installed. Note that these two examples both have knob wind inserts, so must be late knob wind, unless they were installed from and earlier back.
Johnmcd
Well-known
Thank you all for such great advice. I'm still working through all the suggestions but have some further info to impart after reading your replies.
Firstly some info to add to the puzzle. I did take six 4x5 shots when I first got the camera and developed them in a Yankee tank which I got on ebay cheaply before I read any reviews. While it was relatively easy to load, I suffered from the same developing marks that most people seemed to get with that tank. Anyway, desperate to see the results, I cut the 4x5 down to 6x9 so I could get a scan with my Minolta Scan Multi Pro. From memory it was sharp and it was focused with the RF, probably at a point about 20 metres away.
BTW, for those that asked it is a 4x5 and has a top RF.
Now back to the present. I checked the roll holder. It is a graflex '23' Graphic and has a knob winder and unfortunately no chrome pin rollers. I compared the distance to the film plane against the distance to the ground glass and it seems very close, if not equal.
The roll film holder (note the distance to film)
The ground glass (Note the corner height)
The picture below shows the infinity stops. Not sure what to measure against but you can see it against the scale measures.
This picture shows the bellows alignment with the lens. Is this normal?
Anyway, I hope this gives those that know some added info to base their thoughts on.
Once again thanks. I will do some serious testing this weekend with the ground glass and a brick wall and carefully document the settings for each shot and compare against the RF.
Cheers - John
Firstly some info to add to the puzzle. I did take six 4x5 shots when I first got the camera and developed them in a Yankee tank which I got on ebay cheaply before I read any reviews. While it was relatively easy to load, I suffered from the same developing marks that most people seemed to get with that tank. Anyway, desperate to see the results, I cut the 4x5 down to 6x9 so I could get a scan with my Minolta Scan Multi Pro. From memory it was sharp and it was focused with the RF, probably at a point about 20 metres away.
BTW, for those that asked it is a 4x5 and has a top RF.
Now back to the present. I checked the roll holder. It is a graflex '23' Graphic and has a knob winder and unfortunately no chrome pin rollers. I compared the distance to the film plane against the distance to the ground glass and it seems very close, if not equal.
The roll film holder (note the distance to film)
The ground glass (Note the corner height)
The picture below shows the infinity stops. Not sure what to measure against but you can see it against the scale measures.
This picture shows the bellows alignment with the lens. Is this normal?
Anyway, I hope this gives those that know some added info to base their thoughts on.
Once again thanks. I will do some serious testing this weekend with the ground glass and a brick wall and carefully document the settings for each shot and compare against the RF.
Cheers - John