For all those sceptics :-)

[Socke]

I'm in the process of converting data from a customer who hasn't updated his application in more than 10 years.

Scanview 2 was delivered on 3 1/2" floppies then and I just copied the files from 11 year old disks to a folder on a computer running Linux. have a look at the dates!

sv25:/home/hett/sv2 # ls -la /media/fd0
total 1417
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 7168 Jan 1 1970 .
drwxr-xr-x 6 root root 176 Mar 28 14:58 ..
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 15711 Mar 10 1994 about.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 108427 Oct 26 1993 accusoft.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 15841 Dec 11 1993 autosql.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 84977 May 2 1994 bandit.ex_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 5519 Mar 12 1994 bcode.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 6301 Mar 15 1994 bnd.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 59412 Oct 20 1993 bwcc.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 32085 Sep 26 1993 cc_map.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 25746 Mar 7 1993 fuj3096g.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 79751 Feb 24 1994 gctrl21.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 67028 Feb 24 1994 gee21.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 26094 Feb 24 1994 gtiobj21.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 82665 Feb 24 1994 gtools21.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2802 Feb 14 1994 hitlist1.qr_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1830 Feb 14 1994 hitlist2.qr_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 17264 Dec 11 1993 imageman.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 4719 Dec 11 1993 imgbmp.di_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 6707 Dec 11 1993 imggif.di_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 10672 Dec 11 1993 imgpcx.di_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 18953 Dec 11 1993 imgtiff.di_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 4183 Dec 11 1993 imgwmf.di_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 19824 Mar 9 1994 kodak.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 14091 May 16 1994 mapctrl.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 5514 Mar 12 1994 ocr.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 12915 Aug 13 1993 process.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 43399 Dec 6 1993 ptools.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 137093 Feb 24 1994 rdw21.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 123470 Feb 24 1994 sqlapiw.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 16716 Dec 11 1993 sqlnum21.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2062 Aug 21 1992 srv.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1311 Apr 13 1994 struct.cs_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 73076 May 2 1994 sv.hl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 333 Mar 13 1994 sv.in_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 141597 Apr 26 1994 svform.ex_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 25329 May 11 1994 svres.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 20816 Apr 20 1994 svtwain.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 9411 Dec 11 1993 swcstruc.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 18720 Dec 11 1993 swin40.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 21803 Feb 24 1994 swin41.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 7264 Mar 15 1994 tools.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 52104 May 16 1994 xio.dl_
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 9817 Apr 18 1994 xionics.dl_


I have a Kodak CDR with Windows NT4 Workstation, so I must not install one of the 5 1/4" floppiedrives I have in the cellar

All of this will run in a virtual mashine on my dual xeon Linux Workstation!

 

[oftheherd]

They had computers in 1970?

Looks like an interesting task. Keep us informed.

 

[Stu :)]

They had computers in 1970?

They must have, because on my birth certificate it lists my father's job as 'Computer Programer'. Mind you back in those days keyboards only had two keys: 0 and I

Socke it could be worse, you might need to find a IBM 360 and 2500 series card reader.

Stu

 

[Socke]

They must have, because on my birth certificate it lists my father's job as 'Computer Programer'. Mind you back in those days keyboards only had two keys: 0 and I

Socke it could be worse, you might need to find a IBM 360 and 2500 series card reader.

Stu

A 360 is easy, Hercules emulates S/360 one on an ordinary PC running Linux, the card read may be a problem

 

[Socke]

They had computers in 1970?

Looks like an interesting task. Keep us informed.

Yes, they had, my father made advertisements for Nixdorf in 1968. I was given a tour by Hans Nixdorf himself. Worst thing one could do to a nine year old who just found out what can be done with a soldering iron.

 

[Socke]

Thanks google I found out how to uncompress the files and got the database structure. Luckily I don't have to install the whole software.
I can set up the database structure on a new Gupta SQL Server and import an ASCII dump. Then I'll work some magick with PERL and convert to MS SQL Server 2003.

We store the scans as TIFF in the filesystem, the database holds keywords and the full qualified filename. Then every document was converted to TIFF, today we store the native format and have viewers for nearly everything from AutoCad to XML.
Hardest thing I ever did was sorting documents from PCL6 formated spoolfiles on a RS6000, converting those to PDF and extract invoicenumber, customernumber, date and so on into CSV files for automatic archival. Without PERL I'd be lost!

 

[jan normandale]

Thanks google I found out how to uncompress the files and got the database structure. Luckily I don't have to install the whole software.
I can set up the database structure on a new Gupta SQL Server and import an ASCII dump. Then I'll work some magick with PERL and convert to MS SQL Server 2003.

We store the scans as TIFF in the filesystem, the database holds keywords and the full qualified filename. Then every document was converted to TIFF, today we store the native format and have viewers for nearly everything from AutoCad to XML.
Hardest thing I ever did was sorting documents from PCL6 formated spoolfiles on a RS6000, converting those to PDF and extract invoicenumber, customernumber, date and so on into CSV files for automatic archival. Without PERL I'd be lost!

Socke , we are dying with curiosity. Did the pix come out of all this "work around" you did??

Jan

 

[Socke]

Socke , we are dying with curiosity. Did the pix come out of all this "work around" you did??

Jan

Yes, with some problems. Most of the pics are stored in a propriatary format but the company whichs program stored the files is still existing and we could upgrade the software as the old version won't run under Windows XP.

Lesson confirmed, never ever store valuable data in a propriatary format!

If you don't want any company owning YOUR files use open and well documented formats where ever possible.

Imagine paying $600 just to view the files you created 10 years ago because your new computer doesn't run Windos 95 and Office 4.3 anymore

 

[jan normandale]

That's one of the downsides of free enterprise, the upside is we have computers. I've got no good answer for you there. But definitely paying $600 is a lesson I am going to remember. Already some museums and libraries are encountering this very problem. Data that cannot be retreived. It's becoming a significant issue as records are "lost" to technological change.

Long live film and books !!

Jan

 

[Socke]

I can now summarize my experience with old data for us photographers:

1.) Never use propriatary file formats
2.) Always use quality storage media
3.) Document rules for filenames and folders and keep that information at hand
4.) Always use filesystems available on several computer systems, you can not avoid propriatary ones here.

Have a look at the list of file formats open source and public domain software reads, what's not in that list may not be readable in a couplr of years. Even better use accepted standards like Tiff for pictures and RTF for text. XML is made for easy and unrestricted access but may be bastardized by companies like Microsoft, at the moment they are trying to patent it. We will see.

I know that I can read Kodak writeable CDs from 1994 which were stored in their jewel case in a filing cabinet. On the other hand, I had noname CD media unreadable after recording :-( It's a good Idea to check data integrity after writing.

In the old days with 8.3 filenames one had to know what hides behind pic17121.tif, so the use of folders was wider spread than today. A folder hirarchy like c:\1999\january\15\pic17121.tif is still a good idea. IMHO better as long filenames.
BTW, avoid spaces and national letters in filenames! Try to keep them as small as possible, MS Office has problems with pathnames + filnames longer than 256 characters, this can happen when you access network files via an URI \\servername\sharename\folder1\folder1-1\folder1-1-1\very-long-and-unnecessary-descriptive-filename.tif
If you try to write that to an ISO9660 CD you're lost, you have to use Microsofts propriatary Joliet format, luckily this is readable by almost everything

This leads to filesystems, Microsft NTFS used by Windows NT and higher is readable by some systems but not writeable. It is mostly undocumented, outside Microsoft, and protected by patents. Same with the older MS FAT 12, FAT 16 and FAT 32, at least they can be read and writen although there is a patent issue. So use open file systems for harddisks and ISO9660 for optical media like CDs and DVDs, joliet extension for long filenames is acceptable.


A worst case scenario are Microsoft Office 4.3 files stored on a HD under Windows NT 3.51 workstation, to access them you have to upgrade to Windows NT4 and Office 95, then Office 98 and hope that you didn't use positioning frames and then to Windows 2000 with Office 2000.
If you stored your pictures in Powerpoint files, forget them!
Postscript, Encapsulated Postscript and PDF have no problems after some 15 years as well as tiff. I expect the same from Adobes new DNG picture format.

So I scan to tiff, convert my Canon RAW files to tiff and now DNG. I store my media in folders in a filing cabinet like I do with my negatives and I include a "contact print" with every medium.
Then I use a Document Management System which I trust since I work for the company makeing it
I can find my pictures by keywords and the system tells me which medium is needed, the media are numbered from 000000.000 to 999999.999 this should last for a couple of years. At the moment I have 120 CDs and 15 DVDs with pictures and other documents.
And one more thing, I always make two copies of every medium, one is my working copy and the other one is a spare from which I create a new working copy if one fails.
I'm to lazy to store a third copy off site, but this is advisable with very valuable information.

This is a bit long, but I hope it will help.

 

[Bertram2]

I'm in the process of converting data from a customer who hasn't updated his application in more than 10 years.

Scanview 2 was delivered on 3 1/2" floppies then and I just copied the files from 11 year old disks to a folder on a computer running Linux. have a look at the dates!

sv25:/home/hett/sv2 # ls -la /media/fd0
total 1417
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 7168 Jan 1 1970 .
drwxr-xr-x 6 root root 176 Mar 28 14:58 ..
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 15711 Mar 10 1994 about.dl_
-r

Socke, you are a real digital romantic !!
BTW I sold DMS too for some years and I own 3,5"" floppies which work fine too.
But we talk about Atgets glass plates shot 1896 and not of such a Kinderkacke from 1994 !! Yes , 1970 is also Kinderkacke. I mean it is no question at all that if you use all technical possibilities you can keep digital data alive for unforseeable times. So what ? The question is if a private person can afford this circles of innovation and migration and if it keeps the data careful enuff, from one generation to the next. A B&W neg survives in a forgotten shoebox for 100 years untouched, maybe for 150 years too or even more ? Who knows. But not one single migration will be necessary.

Best,
Bertram

 

[Socke]

Socke, you are a real digital romantic !!

A B&W neg survives in a forgotten shoebox for 100 years untouched, maybe for 150 years too or even more ? Who knows. But not one single migration will be necessary.

Best,
Bertram

Bertram, actualy I find shooting B/W only a bit limiting

I know that Kodak and Fuji color neg film from the early 80s is degenerating pretty fast. The emulsion is very brittle and faded although stored in archival sleeves in folders. The prints are better, so I scan those.

An only time will tell if my Tri-X and FP4 is fixed and washed enough to last.

On the other hand, the players for both competing next generation optical media will be backward compatible to CD-ROM.

And believe it or not, the standalone DVD-Player I just bought to watch movies plays slideshows from CDs and DVDs with JPG images!

 

[jan normandale]

Hi Socke

even though we are moving into a digital world. Analogue is still around. Retreiving info from analogue sources and cleaning it up is old technology and will be around as long as there are museums and archives. So hard copy is still pretty viable even if there is some deterioration. Martin Scorcese is retreiving film that is 80 - 100 years old.

The key for the analogue world is 'you have it and you can forget it' no maintenance while digital is a constant exercise in vigilance. Nothing wrong with that but it is time consuming.

I'm in for the 'shoe box' approach. Contacts prints with transparencies/negatives in sleeves and an index for the contents, and just like good wine, stored in a cool, dry, dark place.

Jan

 

[Socke]

Jan, luckily I can save some of my 20 year old negs with much digital help.

I'm not conviced that todays films live longer than todays digital media and for some of my negs and cds I have prove that film does deteriorate in less than 20 years and CDs live over 10.
At least I'll have both

 

[jan normandale]

Hi Socke

if I had the time , I would do exactly what you have done, both hard and digital copies. However there is already an issue for museums and music cd's. Some of these cd's are deteriorating and taking all the data with them. Be sure your CD's are the highest quality for archival quality or you run a risk of lost data from bad CD's

Jan