napchop
Member
Ok, this should start a big Hoo Hah.
Having read the 2005-2006 Mceown's price guide i had to laugh. it seems little or no work has been done to check what's really happening with soviet cameras and prices. And certainly no real research into production figures. So i started the work myself and found some startling facts. Some cameras with extremely low producttion are listed with prices under $100 and others that were mass produced hold high prices. I have been puzzled by this since I've many times visited the bazaars and camera fairs looking for low-priced cameras that are impossible to find, even here in Kiev. The drug is one example. with a production of only 23,000 its often priced much lower than a Leningrad in the catalogues and 70,000 Leningrads were made.
I've listed cameras, my suggested (realistic) prices and known production figures to explain my reasoning. Any comments or hysterics would be appreciated
http://napchop.alien-planet.net/price_list.htm
half a million Skolniks were made, but this camera is easily broken and the majority of them were recycled as they didn't sell well. All the bakelite cameras are becoming very rare for the smae reason.
Having read the 2005-2006 Mceown's price guide i had to laugh. it seems little or no work has been done to check what's really happening with soviet cameras and prices. And certainly no real research into production figures. So i started the work myself and found some startling facts. Some cameras with extremely low producttion are listed with prices under $100 and others that were mass produced hold high prices. I have been puzzled by this since I've many times visited the bazaars and camera fairs looking for low-priced cameras that are impossible to find, even here in Kiev. The drug is one example. with a production of only 23,000 its often priced much lower than a Leningrad in the catalogues and 70,000 Leningrads were made.
I've listed cameras, my suggested (realistic) prices and known production figures to explain my reasoning. Any comments or hysterics would be appreciated
http://napchop.alien-planet.net/price_list.htm
half a million Skolniks were made, but this camera is easily broken and the majority of them were recycled as they didn't sell well. All the bakelite cameras are becoming very rare for the smae reason.
alternatve
Well-known
Supply and demand I suppose.
Zorki 4s were produced for 20 odd years, and it's a decent performing camera, so many people buy them, driving the prices up. Same for the Zorki and FED Leica II copies.
Zorki 4s were produced for 20 odd years, and it's a decent performing camera, so many people buy them, driving the prices up. Same for the Zorki and FED Leica II copies.
napchop
Member
zorki
zorki
nearly 2 million Zorki 4's were made as opposed to 40,000 Zorki 3's, but the price guide dosnt really reflect that difference. 170,000 Zaryas were made, but thet are listed as more expensive than the Zorki 3. many examples of unresearched pricing. The thing to remember is that many Russian and Ukrainian dealers check these price guides before putting cameras on E-bay, so they should at least be better researched
zorki
nearly 2 million Zorki 4's were made as opposed to 40,000 Zorki 3's, but the price guide dosnt really reflect that difference. 170,000 Zaryas were made, but thet are listed as more expensive than the Zorki 3. many examples of unresearched pricing. The thing to remember is that many Russian and Ukrainian dealers check these price guides before putting cameras on E-bay, so they should at least be better researched
trittium
Well-known
Napchop, thanks for the info. This must have been a hard project.
Also, Thanks Daniel for all the hard work. I use your references all the time.
Also, Thanks Daniel for all the hard work. I use your references all the time.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Thanks, napchop, that's some impressive work! Here's some comments:
Your list doesn't account for a certain "desirability factor" that drives up collectors' (or enthusasts') interest. For example, you list the Zorki-3, Zorki-3M and Zorki-3C under the same suggested price of 100-130 USD; however the first two are as close to the classic Barnack form factor as possible, while the latter has a body that is apparently widely regarded as ugly. Consequently, demand for the 3C is probably significantly lower, and prices will be lower as well. In general your list seems to be a bit biased towards the "supply side" of price determination. Also other factors don't figure in (such as the trouble and expenses involving exporting cameras that are more than 50 years old).
Your prices also seem high in general. (But then again, maybe it's reassuring that apparently on every single Soviet camera I've bought I've paid less than your estimate
)
I would be interested in how you arrived at these prices. For example, you have the Narciss at 11.000 production for 200 USD, and the Kiev-5 at 10.000 production for 500 USD. Is this based on that the Kiev-5 is a more usable camera? Then again, the Narciss is solely a collectible, and Narcisses are quirky so that working Narcisses are rare today, so this should drive prices up. Here in Tashkent a Kiev-5 sells for about 150 USD, a Narciss for 250 USD (but the seller has read McKeown's). But then, it's the price-finding processes for those sales that you are criticising. All in all, it would be interesting to hear how you arrived at your estimates.
Your list doesn't account for a certain "desirability factor" that drives up collectors' (or enthusasts') interest. For example, you list the Zorki-3, Zorki-3M and Zorki-3C under the same suggested price of 100-130 USD; however the first two are as close to the classic Barnack form factor as possible, while the latter has a body that is apparently widely regarded as ugly. Consequently, demand for the 3C is probably significantly lower, and prices will be lower as well. In general your list seems to be a bit biased towards the "supply side" of price determination. Also other factors don't figure in (such as the trouble and expenses involving exporting cameras that are more than 50 years old).
Your prices also seem high in general. (But then again, maybe it's reassuring that apparently on every single Soviet camera I've bought I've paid less than your estimate
)I would be interested in how you arrived at these prices. For example, you have the Narciss at 11.000 production for 200 USD, and the Kiev-5 at 10.000 production for 500 USD. Is this based on that the Kiev-5 is a more usable camera? Then again, the Narciss is solely a collectible, and Narcisses are quirky so that working Narcisses are rare today, so this should drive prices up. Here in Tashkent a Kiev-5 sells for about 150 USD, a Narciss for 250 USD (but the seller has read McKeown's). But then, it's the price-finding processes for those sales that you are criticising. All in all, it would be interesting to hear how you arrived at your estimates.
Spyderman
Well-known
Guys, why put together such "price guides" ?
They only cause price increase... Do you think those guys in former soviet union don't have computers and internet? Why suggest them what prices to ask? And especially when (as Philipp noticed in previous post) "Your prices also seem high in general." ?
They only cause price increase... Do you think those guys in former soviet union don't have computers and internet? Why suggest them what prices to ask? And especially when (as Philipp noticed in previous post) "Your prices also seem high in general." ?
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
One soviet that amazes me is the fabulous Fed 2 ... I have tentatively been looking for another one to fiddle with ... maybe a repaint and new leather? I found three on eBay the other night with lenses for less that $20.00 US buy it now! My own blue Fed 2 came from Oleg freshly CLA'd for $45.00
I noticed there are no Iskras on your list ... they seem to demand a premium and aparently they weren't made in huge numbers. I think I paid $145.00 for mine from memory and it wasn't that easy to find a good example without problems, ie ... a film advance/counter mechanism that worked. A good working Iskra is a joy to use and if you are lucky enough to get a nice example they soon command a lot of respect as a quality camera.
I noticed there are no Iskras on your list ... they seem to demand a premium and aparently they weren't made in huge numbers. I think I paid $145.00 for mine from memory and it wasn't that easy to find a good example without problems, ie ... a film advance/counter mechanism that worked. A good working Iskra is a joy to use and if you are lucky enough to get a nice example they soon command a lot of respect as a quality camera.
fanshaw
Well-known
I once saw an offer from a seller in Ukraine for 10 Fed-2s including lenses and cases, for $100 the lot including shipping. I took it and got 8 cameras in good working condtion and a couple that I have used for parts.
napchop
Member
Lots of interesting comments here.
Fistly in answer to the narciss , Kiev 5 question, the Narciss is a 16mm slr and is not really a users camera and i do see them regularly on internet. The Kiev 5 however is a real usable machine, though many are broken through being badly used. I live in Kiev and have seen only 4 Kiev 5's in 5 years, two were broken inside, not just faulty, but broken. Probably through someone trying to force an improperly fitted lens to focus.
I have two that perform well but the asking price here in Kiev is 200-250 dollars.
We all find cameras at bargain prices here and there, and it makes us feel good. but I found it difficulot to relate the US catalogue prices to the availability situation.
I happen to think the Zorki 3-C is just as usable/ collectable as the 3 and 3M. After all it does have flash sync as standard, and its not really that ugly, just plain when compared to the Zorki 3M, and a lot more reliable incidently.. Production figures arent easily available from Arsenal, I'm presently researching these at the factory itself, but the 1,000,000 kiev was made in 1975, so if you consider the production figures for Fed and Zorki in comparison and the better quality of the Arsenal product, you can guess at a production of around 35,000-40,000 per year total in the period up to 1975 (total production of all models, with 8 models in production at this time. Oh, and the Iskra and Iskra 2 are on the list. The Iskra was a very expensive camera in soviet times and fully justifies its suggested price, as does the Junost.
Fistly in answer to the narciss , Kiev 5 question, the Narciss is a 16mm slr and is not really a users camera and i do see them regularly on internet. The Kiev 5 however is a real usable machine, though many are broken through being badly used. I live in Kiev and have seen only 4 Kiev 5's in 5 years, two were broken inside, not just faulty, but broken. Probably through someone trying to force an improperly fitted lens to focus.
I have two that perform well but the asking price here in Kiev is 200-250 dollars.
We all find cameras at bargain prices here and there, and it makes us feel good. but I found it difficulot to relate the US catalogue prices to the availability situation.
I happen to think the Zorki 3-C is just as usable/ collectable as the 3 and 3M. After all it does have flash sync as standard, and its not really that ugly, just plain when compared to the Zorki 3M, and a lot more reliable incidently.. Production figures arent easily available from Arsenal, I'm presently researching these at the factory itself, but the 1,000,000 kiev was made in 1975, so if you consider the production figures for Fed and Zorki in comparison and the better quality of the Arsenal product, you can guess at a production of around 35,000-40,000 per year total in the period up to 1975 (total production of all models, with 8 models in production at this time. Oh, and the Iskra and Iskra 2 are on the list. The Iskra was a very expensive camera in soviet times and fully justifies its suggested price, as does the Junost.
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ruben
Guest
Hi napchop,
I really do not understand what your price list is supposed to reflect, do you mean the prices at Kiev street shops ?
Secondly, as we are talking about very old cameras, are you pricing "so-so" cameras, "good working" cameras without CLA, or CLA-ed cameras ?
Cheers,
Ruben
I really do not understand what your price list is supposed to reflect, do you mean the prices at Kiev street shops ?
Secondly, as we are talking about very old cameras, are you pricing "so-so" cameras, "good working" cameras without CLA, or CLA-ed cameras ?
Cheers,
Ruben
Xmas
Veteran
Napchop
Thanks this is interesting, some of the dealers here do put a premium on cameras.
A Zorki 1a, Zorki2 or FedZorki are well expensive here, never seen a FedZorki, except in a magazine photo.
Noel
Thanks this is interesting, some of the dealers here do put a premium on cameras.
A Zorki 1a, Zorki2 or FedZorki are well expensive here, never seen a FedZorki, except in a magazine photo.
Noel
napchop
Member
oops
oops
I think you're missing the point here. The idea, as stated is prices for cameras in reasonable condition considering their age. And I was reflecting on availability based on production figures, rather than concentrating on the cameras themselves. The Iskra was produced in low numbers, far fewer than the Agfa, and in my opinion is a better camera. The lens certainly is better. Wether you are a collector or a user, or both, the fact is some of these cameras had very low production runs and the prices should reflect the rarity. Yes, a Drug is much harder to find than a Leningrad, as is a Kiev 5 or a Zorki 12. And Fed-C is the hen's tooth of cameras so why do people tell me the Drug is expensive. Those oif you who wait for such cameras to appear on E-bay may get lucky, but most likely not. There are growing numbers of collectors here in the FSU who are pushing the prices up too. We all remain victims of the anti-soviet propaganda that ridiculed the cameras and forced prices down for years. I bought my first Zenit in England for £10 and that was a standard price for any soviet camera in the '80's. But more and more people are collecting, so how many people can possibly own an Iskra? Not so many, or a 1947 Kiev for instance? or an Almaz 104, with a production run of only 4 cameras? This is my point I suppose....
oops
I think you're missing the point here. The idea, as stated is prices for cameras in reasonable condition considering their age. And I was reflecting on availability based on production figures, rather than concentrating on the cameras themselves. The Iskra was produced in low numbers, far fewer than the Agfa, and in my opinion is a better camera. The lens certainly is better. Wether you are a collector or a user, or both, the fact is some of these cameras had very low production runs and the prices should reflect the rarity. Yes, a Drug is much harder to find than a Leningrad, as is a Kiev 5 or a Zorki 12. And Fed-C is the hen's tooth of cameras so why do people tell me the Drug is expensive. Those oif you who wait for such cameras to appear on E-bay may get lucky, but most likely not. There are growing numbers of collectors here in the FSU who are pushing the prices up too. We all remain victims of the anti-soviet propaganda that ridiculed the cameras and forced prices down for years. I bought my first Zenit in England for £10 and that was a standard price for any soviet camera in the '80's. But more and more people are collecting, so how many people can possibly own an Iskra? Not so many, or a 1947 Kiev for instance? or an Almaz 104, with a production run of only 4 cameras? This is my point I suppose....
R
ruben
Guest
Hi napchop,
I think it is you who is missing the point. "The idea, as stated is prices for cameras in reasonable condition considering their age", as you write, is to my understanding an elegant way very much in vogue to define a non-working camera.
Some days ago in a thread about members fixing their Soviet cameras, I suggested them to start selling their surplus perfectly working Kievs for us$ 150~200, and I am sure it fell out of the blue.
Nevertheless a Kiev that has been overhauled and works perfectly is due this price. But to pay such a price for a non overhauled and defective Kiev is not only undue but will meet a very hard FACT which is called the WORLD MARKET.
The same about another camera I happen to be aquinted with, the Iskra.
In both cases, your price list reflect the extreme rare cases, in which samples have been maintained in highly good condition, without much need of human fixing intervention. But these cases are extremely rare.
True, anti-Soviet propaganda has made the illusion that a Soviet camera should be bought for penauts. But on the other hand, ex-Soviet sellers are not doing their best, if anything, to put these cameras to work. To really work. Instead, eBay sellers buy and resell much of junk. They compete for low prices, but not for higher quality. Their relative low prices (against your list) do reflect world competence realities, of other non-Soviet but working cameras.
FSU collectors may do whatever they please with their money, and I am not afraid at all, since they will not be able to escape the rules of offer and demmand. Less and less in our small internet world village.
Now, get me straight. Junky cameras is NOT a Soviet characteristic at all, but a feature of most very old cameras. And for crook selling, the West has a clear edge of older tradition and refinement. Go buy a $ 50 GSN or Canonet at eBay and your chances to get a good sample are no better than to get a good Kiev for the same price.
The issue is not how hard you have to walk in Kiev streets to find a Drug at whatever condition. The issue is weather more clever folks will start to learn fixing from Oleg, or like Oleg, and create a higher prices market of really working cameras. Otherwise, who needs the whole thing ?
Therefore, instead of your good intentioned warning us that Soviet cameras are going raise their price, you may take better advantage of your stay in Kiev, in trying to convince some unemployed folks there to start learning camera fixing, a job for which they have all the literature already in their home language.
Cheers,
Ruben
I think it is you who is missing the point. "The idea, as stated is prices for cameras in reasonable condition considering their age", as you write, is to my understanding an elegant way very much in vogue to define a non-working camera.
Some days ago in a thread about members fixing their Soviet cameras, I suggested them to start selling their surplus perfectly working Kievs for us$ 150~200, and I am sure it fell out of the blue.
Nevertheless a Kiev that has been overhauled and works perfectly is due this price. But to pay such a price for a non overhauled and defective Kiev is not only undue but will meet a very hard FACT which is called the WORLD MARKET.
The same about another camera I happen to be aquinted with, the Iskra.
In both cases, your price list reflect the extreme rare cases, in which samples have been maintained in highly good condition, without much need of human fixing intervention. But these cases are extremely rare.
True, anti-Soviet propaganda has made the illusion that a Soviet camera should be bought for penauts. But on the other hand, ex-Soviet sellers are not doing their best, if anything, to put these cameras to work. To really work. Instead, eBay sellers buy and resell much of junk. They compete for low prices, but not for higher quality. Their relative low prices (against your list) do reflect world competence realities, of other non-Soviet but working cameras.
FSU collectors may do whatever they please with their money, and I am not afraid at all, since they will not be able to escape the rules of offer and demmand. Less and less in our small internet world village.
Now, get me straight. Junky cameras is NOT a Soviet characteristic at all, but a feature of most very old cameras. And for crook selling, the West has a clear edge of older tradition and refinement. Go buy a $ 50 GSN or Canonet at eBay and your chances to get a good sample are no better than to get a good Kiev for the same price.
The issue is not how hard you have to walk in Kiev streets to find a Drug at whatever condition. The issue is weather more clever folks will start to learn fixing from Oleg, or like Oleg, and create a higher prices market of really working cameras. Otherwise, who needs the whole thing ?
Therefore, instead of your good intentioned warning us that Soviet cameras are going raise their price, you may take better advantage of your stay in Kiev, in trying to convince some unemployed folks there to start learning camera fixing, a job for which they have all the literature already in their home language.
Cheers,
Ruben
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rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Hi,
interesting arguments so far.
Philipp
interesting arguments so far.
OK, but what does that mean in practice? Considering their age, then going by your price suggestions, I can expect a 34-year-old 1973 Kiev-5 for $750 to be in pristine, excellent condition (mint, but working), while I would have to expect a 1934 sub-#2000 FED-1 for $1000 to be non-working and bashed up because it's 73 years old. If I think that to the end, age isn't really a sensible criterion for pricing; condition is.napchop said:
The question is not only how many can own one, but how many would want to own one. Interest in Moskva-5's is certainly higher than in Moskva-3's, completely independent of production figures. So a supply-side argument is not always valid. The same applies to the 1947 Kiev; it's not a better camera than a 1951 or 1958 Kiev, so who would want to own one specifically? Personally I second Daniel's notion that for an Almaz 104, or a Zenit-D or Rodina for that matter, I wouldn't give an extra penny just because they're rare, and given that Daniel and I are customers too and that prices are determined across all the customers in the market, going by collectors' interests alone is likely to lead to skewed valuations which may often reflect sellers' wishful thinking. And if one does go by collectors' interests, one should also base pricing on cameras in collectible condition.napchop said:
Philipp
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zhang xk
Well-known
Hi,
I managed to find some confirmed sales prices on a Chinese site during last 6 months or so. All are relatively uncommon cameras in excellent condition, and many with original packings and passports.
1, Zenit-7 850 euro(RMB 8,500)
2, Jupiter-6 silver S/N 001xxx, 230 euro
3, Kiev 3(1955) dual logos 140 euro
4, Zorki 3 01138 1953 300 euro
5, Iskra 188 euro, Iskra-2 260 euro
6, Almaz-103 280 euro
7, Zorki-12 300 euro
8, Kiev-5 1970 160 euro
9, Kiev-2 1952 block logo 240 euro.
All cameras are shipped to your door.
I think confirmed sales may give you an idea what price is going. I noted a big price rise since supply began to diminish about 2 years ago in China.
An example image of a camera is attached.
Cheers,
Zhang
I managed to find some confirmed sales prices on a Chinese site during last 6 months or so. All are relatively uncommon cameras in excellent condition, and many with original packings and passports.
1, Zenit-7 850 euro(RMB 8,500)
2, Jupiter-6 silver S/N 001xxx, 230 euro
3, Kiev 3(1955) dual logos 140 euro
4, Zorki 3 01138 1953 300 euro
5, Iskra 188 euro, Iskra-2 260 euro
6, Almaz-103 280 euro
7, Zorki-12 300 euro
8, Kiev-5 1970 160 euro
9, Kiev-2 1952 block logo 240 euro.
All cameras are shipped to your door.
I think confirmed sales may give you an idea what price is going. I noted a big price rise since supply began to diminish about 2 years ago in China.
An example image of a camera is attached.
Cheers,
Zhang
Attachments
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napchop
Member
Sorry Ruben, but I was talking about working cameras after CLR. Since i only sell serviced cameras and try to guarentee. I didnt suggest anyone should buy a camera that dosnt work and isnt in good condition. Consistent with age refers to worn paintwork and skin, scuffed cases etcruben said:
I wasnt saying soviet cameras are raising their prices, only that demand and rarity is doing that anyway. I know I can buy some very rare cameras here, but there is a hysteria among some of the dealers now, someone asked me for $1200 for an FT2 last week and I was offered another the same day for $175. For the small number of Iskras made, and the number that were junked or cannibalised (I have 4, only two work) so for those who really want one the price will decide who gets to own one or not.
Thanks Zhang, This isnt far out of line with what I said, if you convert the euros to dollars.
It's always been easier to get these cameras in Europe than elsewhere, but Kiev is quite busy with Chinese and Japanese collectors and dealerswho come and snap up anything with a lens.
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ruben
Guest
hi Napchop,
I didn't know you are selling cameras with CLA. Perhaps it was my fault for not checking your site. I will now.
Cheers,
Ruben
I didn't know you are selling cameras with CLA. Perhaps it was my fault for not checking your site. I will now.
Cheers,
Ruben
R
ruben
Guest
Hi Napchop,
I have reviewed your site, and ceirtainly most of my long post is out of context.
Nevertheless you may have noticed that my emphasys is on getting mechanical excellency for Soviet cameras after overhaul. External aesthetics of an old camera can be forgiven due to age. Yet I don't find any excuse for internal mechanics. Provided this, your prices for Kiev cameras and lenses are not high at all, but competitive.
I wish you to stay in bussiness, and I hope to taste from your products in the future.
Best wishes,
Ruben
I have reviewed your site, and ceirtainly most of my long post is out of context.
Nevertheless you may have noticed that my emphasys is on getting mechanical excellency for Soviet cameras after overhaul. External aesthetics of an old camera can be forgiven due to age. Yet I don't find any excuse for internal mechanics. Provided this, your prices for Kiev cameras and lenses are not high at all, but competitive.
I wish you to stay in bussiness, and I hope to taste from your products in the future.
Best wishes,
Ruben
R
ruben
Guest
DLRIDINGS:
"I've got 6 zorkis, none of them work.
I've got 5 Kievs (blushes) all of them work."
FANSHAW:
"I don't know what you mean by 'none of them work'. Perhaps they need adjusting. One thing is certain- repair or adjustment of a Zorki is a lot easier than the same operation on a Kiev! ..."
Ruben: what really amuzes me is how Daniel managed to get 5 Kievs and all of them work !!! (?)
Cheers,
Ruben
Daniel I wait for an urgent PM about it.
"I've got 6 zorkis, none of them work.
I've got 5 Kievs (blushes) all of them work."
FANSHAW:
"I don't know what you mean by 'none of them work'. Perhaps they need adjusting. One thing is certain- repair or adjustment of a Zorki is a lot easier than the same operation on a Kiev! ..."
Ruben: what really amuzes me is how Daniel managed to get 5 Kievs and all of them work !!! (?)
Cheers,
Ruben
Daniel I wait for an urgent PM about it.
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mike goldberg
The Peaceful Pacific
Hi All, I'm back, and here's my 2 cents worth...
1. A few months ago, I bought a Fed-2c on the B@y with an I-26m. Shutter speeds, winding and the lens are very good. R/F focusing is slightly off at Infinity. Cost of the Fed-2c + I-26m were $22- plus mailing from an FSU seller.
2. Just today, I picked up at the PO an Engraved Zorki-4, which was CLA'd by Oleg. The original cost of the Zorki-4 was negligible, and it came with a Fed 50/3.5 collapsible, from another camera. The cost of the CLA is $48-, plus $20- for Registered mail from Russia. It took just 11 days to get here.
The clerks in Customs here in the Jerusalem central PO, were so blown away by this "ancient artifact," there was no customs fee
прекрасный ... Eta kracivi. It is beautiful! The winding is soft, and the shutter is very quiet. I can HEAR the difference between the speeds. V/F is bright, and the R/F appears to be OK. I've got my first test roll in.
Cheers, Mike
1. A few months ago, I bought a Fed-2c on the B@y with an I-26m. Shutter speeds, winding and the lens are very good. R/F focusing is slightly off at Infinity. Cost of the Fed-2c + I-26m were $22- plus mailing from an FSU seller.
2. Just today, I picked up at the PO an Engraved Zorki-4, which was CLA'd by Oleg. The original cost of the Zorki-4 was negligible, and it came with a Fed 50/3.5 collapsible, from another camera. The cost of the CLA is $48-, plus $20- for Registered mail from Russia. It took just 11 days to get here.
The clerks in Customs here in the Jerusalem central PO, were so blown away by this "ancient artifact," there was no customs fee
прекрасный ... Eta kracivi. It is beautiful! The winding is soft, and the shutter is very quiet. I can HEAR the difference between the speeds. V/F is bright, and the R/F appears to be OK. I've got my first test roll in.
Cheers, Mike