jpa66
Jan as in "Jan and Dean"
The bug has finally bit me, and now I'm looking into getting a large format camera. I'm looking into a 4X5, and wondering what would be an easy camera for a beginner. I'd like it to be coupled, fairly easy to set the shutter speed, etc., and not too unwieldy.
Any cameras that fit the bill? Keep in mind that I'm here on RFF because I like the benefits of rangefinders. I'd just like to experience the larger format, especially for landscapes.
Thanks,
Jan
Any cameras that fit the bill? Keep in mind that I'm here on RFF because I like the benefits of rangefinders. I'd just like to experience the larger format, especially for landscapes.
Thanks,
Jan
Brian Legge
Veteran
Are you thinking tripod based or handheld?
What do you want in the way of movements (if you don't know what this question is asking, I'd suggest doing some googling on large format movements)
What do you want in the way of movements (if you don't know what this question is asking, I'd suggest doing some googling on large format movements)
fraley
Beware of Claws
You might check out freestylephoto and calumet -- two dealers that carry large format cameras.
jpa66
Jan as in "Jan and Dean"
I was thinking tripod use, not hand-held. I guess I just assumed that all of the cameras would have tilt, swing, rise and fall and shift ( did I miss any? ). What would be the most essential to have? I figure that tilt and rise and fall would be ones, as well as front tilt and shift.
Ronald M
Veteran
Press cameras with rangefinders have very limited movements. Speed Graphic and Bush Pressman are examples.
For landscape work, you would probably want a view camera or folding field camera. I have a Zone VI with 90,110,135, 180,210, 300 mm lenses. Long bellows are important if you want to use long lenses or do close work. There is no work around for a too short bellows. A 300 mm lens requires 300 mm of bellows at infinity, 12". That is about a 100 mm on 35mm camera, 50=180 so it just scales up and down. 20" are required for flexibility. Most field/press cameras are 12" total.
My lenses cover large image areas which allow significant movement. Lenses for RF 4x5 Cameras do not have image circles much bigger than 4x5 thus limiting shift and and other movements. 90 Angulons and 135 optars are in this category. If you shift a lens with small coverage, part of the image simply blocks off.
For landscape work, you would probably want a view camera or folding field camera. I have a Zone VI with 90,110,135, 180,210, 300 mm lenses. Long bellows are important if you want to use long lenses or do close work. There is no work around for a too short bellows. A 300 mm lens requires 300 mm of bellows at infinity, 12". That is about a 100 mm on 35mm camera, 50=180 so it just scales up and down. 20" are required for flexibility. Most field/press cameras are 12" total.
My lenses cover large image areas which allow significant movement. Lenses for RF 4x5 Cameras do not have image circles much bigger than 4x5 thus limiting shift and and other movements. 90 Angulons and 135 optars are in this category. If you shift a lens with small coverage, part of the image simply blocks off.
R
rpsawin
Guest
Jan,
This may be of some help to you: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/
You might want to join this forum as well: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/
Best regards,
Bob
This may be of some help to you: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/
You might want to join this forum as well: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/
Best regards,
Bob
Brian Legge
Veteran
I picked up a Tachihara about 6 months ago. Work has been busy so I haven't gotten out to use it as much as I like, but its been a solid camera for me. Enough movement, easy to carry, etc. Its in the afore mentioned 'field camera' class.
When putting together a budget, also be sure to add in a solid tripod if you don't have one already.
When putting together a budget, also be sure to add in a solid tripod if you don't have one already.
Carterofmars
Well-known
Try a Graphic. They are cheap enough to start out with and test whether you like or not.
http://www.davidburnett.com/portfolio.html
This guy above is my favorite 4X5 user currently.
http://www.davidburnett.com/portfolio.html
This guy above is my favorite 4X5 user currently.
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bobby_novatron
Photon Collector
I was bitten by the same bug in the past 12 months. I did lots of research on LF, tried to figure out what I was looking for. Even got a severe case of GAS and almost bought a Linhof. Glad I talked myself down from that one!
To satisfy my curiosity I ended up buying a well-cared for Speed Graphic. It works flawlessly. Coupled rangefinder. Limited movements, but I don't really care. When it's folded up and traveling with me outdoors, it's not much bigger than a Canon dSLR. To me, that convenience is important.
The Speed / Crown Graphic is a cheap way to get a taste of LF. Maybe sometime down the road I'll get a Linhof, but for now I'm happy with my press camera.
To satisfy my curiosity I ended up buying a well-cared for Speed Graphic. It works flawlessly. Coupled rangefinder. Limited movements, but I don't really care. When it's folded up and traveling with me outdoors, it's not much bigger than a Canon dSLR. To me, that convenience is important.
The Speed / Crown Graphic is a cheap way to get a taste of LF. Maybe sometime down the road I'll get a Linhof, but for now I'm happy with my press camera.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Jan,
Contrary to the advice of others here, I'd avoid a press camera (Graphic/Speed Graphic) if you are planning to use movements, because they are far too limited. No-one loves monorails any more, so they are ridiculously cheap, and they are far more versatile. You may also want to consider other formats. For an LF overview, see http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps large.html
Cheers,
R.
Contrary to the advice of others here, I'd avoid a press camera (Graphic/Speed Graphic) if you are planning to use movements, because they are far too limited. No-one loves monorails any more, so they are ridiculously cheap, and they are far more versatile. You may also want to consider other formats. For an LF overview, see http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps large.html
Cheers,
R.
Harry S.
Well-known
I recently bought a Shen Hao 4x5 Field camera from Badger Graphic. Its my first foray into Large Format too. The camera was a few bucks shy of $700 and I found a really nice Schneider Symmar 150mm for $150 on the 'bay. Its probably the cheapest way to get into 4x5. I looked at the vintage press cameras but to be honest most of them seemed like problems waiting to happen.
The Shen Hao is built pretty well. Its no Linhof obviously but as a new user its perfect. The movements are a bit stiff at first but they are loosening up nicely with use. I love this camera (format). It really brought the passion back in my photography.
The Shen Hao is built pretty well. Its no Linhof obviously but as a new user its perfect. The movements are a bit stiff at first but they are loosening up nicely with use. I love this camera (format). It really brought the passion back in my photography.
maddoc
... likes film again.
I got into LF finally last year in autumn when I was offered a nice Technika IV for not to much money. I added a Fujinon 180/5.6 as my first lens, some 4x5 film holder, a loupe and was done. A black t-shirt works well as a dark cloth, a stable Gitzo tripod was already in my possession as was a Sekonic L-508. 4x5 is fun ! 
bigeye
Well-known
You really should decide whether you need movements - it's the biggest technical advantage of large format cameras.
Pro 4x5:
Messing around with a large format camera is the cheapest, most consuming technical lesson in photography. It has tremendous value for what you learn about planning/preparing for a shoot, exposure, lenses, composition, perspective and patience.
It can give the best image (breathtakingly), if you can successfully bring everything to bear, for very low cost. You just have to deal with the low volume, cantankerous nature of large format. Lots of TTD.
Con:
If you do not need perspective controls, a medium format will meet most folk's requirements, The great big negative of the 4x5 is a truly impressive thing, but I don't believe that it's that necessary (over medium) unless you have a specific need for it. Medium format is relatively handy and the negatives are fantastic. Both are in a different league from dslrs or 35mm.
Note: the only "coupled"(?) 4x5s are the press cameras, which got replaced by Rolleiflexes (which don't look as cool) and have only limited movements.
I'm with Roger on the unloved view camera monorails... I use a Graphic View that transports in the typical gray Graphic box in the field. A couple hundred dollars with a great lens. The tripod will cost more than the camera.
.
Pro 4x5:
Messing around with a large format camera is the cheapest, most consuming technical lesson in photography. It has tremendous value for what you learn about planning/preparing for a shoot, exposure, lenses, composition, perspective and patience.
It can give the best image (breathtakingly), if you can successfully bring everything to bear, for very low cost. You just have to deal with the low volume, cantankerous nature of large format. Lots of TTD.
Con:
If you do not need perspective controls, a medium format will meet most folk's requirements, The great big negative of the 4x5 is a truly impressive thing, but I don't believe that it's that necessary (over medium) unless you have a specific need for it. Medium format is relatively handy and the negatives are fantastic. Both are in a different league from dslrs or 35mm.
Note: the only "coupled"(?) 4x5s are the press cameras, which got replaced by Rolleiflexes (which don't look as cool) and have only limited movements.
I'm with Roger on the unloved view camera monorails... I use a Graphic View that transports in the typical gray Graphic box in the field. A couple hundred dollars with a great lens. The tripod will cost more than the camera.
.
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Luna
Well-known
I got a Sinar F and had fun at home, but I want to go outside and shoot some slide so I got a wooden field camera. Tachihara. The lens is on the way as is 100 sheets of Velvia.
If I was you, I'd think long and hard about what you want exactly out of your 4x5 and don't cheap out. Do it right the first time.
If I was you, I'd think long and hard about what you want exactly out of your 4x5 and don't cheap out. Do it right the first time.
Ronald M
Veteran
And speaking of image quality, 4x5 tri x and HC110 will out perform anything you can do with 35 mm. Use some Delta 100 or T Max 100 and you will think you went to heaven so long as the lenses are up to snuff.
Dust is your enemy. You need a dust free place to load and keep the holders clean until insertion to the camera. I use plastic bags inside a lunch bag for holders. Clean out the holders including the light trap so the slide does not accumulate dust. Dust off the slide before inserting into camera. Clean after use and store dust free.
CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN is the key. It is a worse problem than dust on digital sensors.
Dust is your enemy. You need a dust free place to load and keep the holders clean until insertion to the camera. I use plastic bags inside a lunch bag for holders. Clean out the holders including the light trap so the slide does not accumulate dust. Dust off the slide before inserting into camera. Clean after use and store dust free.
CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN is the key. It is a worse problem than dust on digital sensors.
tlitody
Well-known
I would suggest a Linhof Technika. Not the cheapest but built like a tank and a huge advantage is that it is a true field camera design with a clamshell body which makes packing/portability the best there is. Not as light as a wooden field camera but far more robust and importantly very very rigid which is very important in a field camera.
Stay away from studio/monorail cameras for field work or you will never venture more than 10 paces from your car.
And contrary some idiot advice above, you need only minimal movements for 99% of landscape photography. A little front tilt is all you need 90% of the time.
Fact is that it's so easy to ruin your LF shots because getting everything aligned and rigid is so difficult to do reliaby in the field that it's better to have a camera which is super rigid with minimal adjustments. The Technika does all of this in buket fulls. It will take a 300mm lens and longer with tele designs and down to around 75mm for most older models and even shorter for some of the newer models.
150mm is considered normal focal length on 4x5. 90mm is a very widely used wide angle lens.
until you've used a 4x5 camera you really won't know what lenses you like to use. But you won't need masses of shift (i.e. masses of extra image circle) for 99% of landscape work so you don't need a camera with masses of shift available or lenses with huge coverage.
For Landscape you need something easily poratble and compact so that you can backpack with ease. Again the Linhof Technika fits the bill.
Others will have different opinions but there is a reason why Linhof Technikas are still in production today.
Stay away from studio/monorail cameras for field work or you will never venture more than 10 paces from your car.
And contrary some idiot advice above, you need only minimal movements for 99% of landscape photography. A little front tilt is all you need 90% of the time.
Fact is that it's so easy to ruin your LF shots because getting everything aligned and rigid is so difficult to do reliaby in the field that it's better to have a camera which is super rigid with minimal adjustments. The Technika does all of this in buket fulls. It will take a 300mm lens and longer with tele designs and down to around 75mm for most older models and even shorter for some of the newer models.
150mm is considered normal focal length on 4x5. 90mm is a very widely used wide angle lens.
until you've used a 4x5 camera you really won't know what lenses you like to use. But you won't need masses of shift (i.e. masses of extra image circle) for 99% of landscape work so you don't need a camera with masses of shift available or lenses with huge coverage.
For Landscape you need something easily poratble and compact so that you can backpack with ease. Again the Linhof Technika fits the bill.
Others will have different opinions but there is a reason why Linhof Technikas are still in production today.
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
If you want ease of use and RF and any more than the most limited movements, the choice is small: Linhof, MPP (ideally Mk VII or VIII), and Horseman spring to mind. A light monorail (especially Toho, not Toyo) can weigh less than a metal press camera, or even many 'woodies',while a 'woodie' gives you light weight, reasonable movements but no RF coupling.
Contrary to the rather aggressive post above, there is very little 'idiot advice' here. There are different ways of going about things, and it's a good idea to take account of all the advice that's posted. Think for yourself about exactly what you want to do, and how you want to do it. In particular, do you want only a landscape camera (in which case you can even live without movements altogether) or do you want something that can be used for many purposes?
The point about loading film-holders without dust is indeed important and there's quite a lot about it in http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps how loading cut film.html
Cheers,
R.
Contrary to the rather aggressive post above, there is very little 'idiot advice' here. There are different ways of going about things, and it's a good idea to take account of all the advice that's posted. Think for yourself about exactly what you want to do, and how you want to do it. In particular, do you want only a landscape camera (in which case you can even live without movements altogether) or do you want something that can be used for many purposes?
The point about loading film-holders without dust is indeed important and there's quite a lot about it in http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps how loading cut film.html
Cheers,
R.
tlitody
Well-known
shutter speed and aperture are all set directly on the lens. Recessed lens boards are a pain in use but most lenses will fit flat lens boards. Only the wide angle lenses may require recessed boards but stay away from them if you can.
Linhof technika does have rangefinder but its not much use for landscape if you use any tilt. But on the other hand if you don't use any movements then it'll work fine.
Another ebenfit of the technika is that with the right lens you can close the camera with lens still in place which makes portatbility even easier.
You need to be aware that if you end up with 3 or so lenses that together with film holders, loupe, dark cloth, filters etc etc you need quite a sizeable back pack to carry it all in. It ain't light. But with a single lens which allows the technika to close with it on, you keep your carrying pack to a minimum size.
Linhof technika does have rangefinder but its not much use for landscape if you use any tilt. But on the other hand if you don't use any movements then it'll work fine.
Another ebenfit of the technika is that with the right lens you can close the camera with lens still in place which makes portatbility even easier.
You need to be aware that if you end up with 3 or so lenses that together with film holders, loupe, dark cloth, filters etc etc you need quite a sizeable back pack to carry it all in. It ain't light. But with a single lens which allows the technika to close with it on, you keep your carrying pack to a minimum size.
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Frank Petronio
Well-known
If you're like most people here, you didn't just buy one 35mm or digital camera and just stick with it forever. You should look at large format the same way, the camera you get to learn the basics with doesn't have to be a life-time commitment. You can be promiscuous and try many.
I'm the worst whore, I've owned at least twenty different ones now. And my main advice is not to fall into the trap that most newcomers seem to do, which is to buy a pretty wooden folder right off the bat. I know they are attractive and lightweight -- and laypeople will come up and comment on your "old-fashioned" camera (don't tell them it was made a few months ago in Asia). BUT for a fraction of the price of even a modest Shen-Hao, you can get a very solid, very versatile monorail with unlimited movements and infinite expansion capabilities.
True, they are bulkier and heavier but... you're not going backpacking with the thing until you understand how to use it, right? And the sturdiness is to your advantage, especially starting out. Plus they are a lot simpler to set up and manipulate -- all the controls and positioning is obvious (I struggle remembering how to fold a Tachi, but I am slow...).
You see top-quality Swiss-made Sinar Fs with normal lenses selling in the $3-400 range on eBay. There are thousands of good professional-grade cameras from Toyo, Sinar, Arca-Swiss, Horseman, Cambo, and even Linhof selling for under $500.
I just used a $300 Linhof Kardan Super-Color that is as well-built and designed as their famous Technika folding cameras that cost many times more. True the monorail is larger (but not much heavier) and that accounts for the difference in popularity. In practice, many photos are made within proximity to the car or homebase, especially when you're learning, so what is the big deal?
For that matter, I've used many Graflex Crown and Speed Graphics, which are very solid folding press cameras. Granted, you only have limited movements but they are nearly bulletproof and can be found in excellent condition for only a couple of hundred dollars ($400-$500 if you want a warrantied one from a major dealer). The older Optar, Ektar, and Xenar lenses that are bundled with them are excellent, although just like a fifty-year old Leica, sometimes they need a CLA.
Especially for handheld shooting, a Graflex makes so much more sense than spending $$$ on some exotic kludge like converted Polaroid 110s and the like.... I actually prefer the lighter Crown to the Technika for handheld shooting since the Linhof is a beast.
Certainly you can easily drop more than a M9's price on a wonderful new Linhof Master Technika, which is wonderful if you can afford it (they are fine, like a Leica). Or you can be a pretentious poser and drop just $4000 to $6000 on an wooden Ebony/Chamonix/Shen-Hao and a few new lenses.... OR you could be smart and get yourself a professional Sinar F and a Crown Graphic (in case you suddenly go backpacking or want to shoot handheld), along with a choice vintage lens or two, a rugged tripod (a Tiltall is a good start), a spot meter, and a load of film and holders... for under a grand.
If you don't have a darkroom, do yourself a favor and get a $180 Harrison Pup Tent to load film in. Also, if you can afford it, get a Fuji Instant film back and a supply of Fuji Instant film (they make two sizes, the smaller, less expensive size works in your 4x5 although it leaves off a small portion of the image).
http://4photolab.com is one of the best mail-order processing labs, run by my friend Edgar Praus, who will help guide you if you need a lab.
I'm the worst whore, I've owned at least twenty different ones now. And my main advice is not to fall into the trap that most newcomers seem to do, which is to buy a pretty wooden folder right off the bat. I know they are attractive and lightweight -- and laypeople will come up and comment on your "old-fashioned" camera (don't tell them it was made a few months ago in Asia). BUT for a fraction of the price of even a modest Shen-Hao, you can get a very solid, very versatile monorail with unlimited movements and infinite expansion capabilities.
True, they are bulkier and heavier but... you're not going backpacking with the thing until you understand how to use it, right? And the sturdiness is to your advantage, especially starting out. Plus they are a lot simpler to set up and manipulate -- all the controls and positioning is obvious (I struggle remembering how to fold a Tachi, but I am slow...).
You see top-quality Swiss-made Sinar Fs with normal lenses selling in the $3-400 range on eBay. There are thousands of good professional-grade cameras from Toyo, Sinar, Arca-Swiss, Horseman, Cambo, and even Linhof selling for under $500.
I just used a $300 Linhof Kardan Super-Color that is as well-built and designed as their famous Technika folding cameras that cost many times more. True the monorail is larger (but not much heavier) and that accounts for the difference in popularity. In practice, many photos are made within proximity to the car or homebase, especially when you're learning, so what is the big deal?
For that matter, I've used many Graflex Crown and Speed Graphics, which are very solid folding press cameras. Granted, you only have limited movements but they are nearly bulletproof and can be found in excellent condition for only a couple of hundred dollars ($400-$500 if you want a warrantied one from a major dealer). The older Optar, Ektar, and Xenar lenses that are bundled with them are excellent, although just like a fifty-year old Leica, sometimes they need a CLA.
Especially for handheld shooting, a Graflex makes so much more sense than spending $$$ on some exotic kludge like converted Polaroid 110s and the like.... I actually prefer the lighter Crown to the Technika for handheld shooting since the Linhof is a beast.
Certainly you can easily drop more than a M9's price on a wonderful new Linhof Master Technika, which is wonderful if you can afford it (they are fine, like a Leica). Or you can be a pretentious poser and drop just $4000 to $6000 on an wooden Ebony/Chamonix/Shen-Hao and a few new lenses.... OR you could be smart and get yourself a professional Sinar F and a Crown Graphic (in case you suddenly go backpacking or want to shoot handheld), along with a choice vintage lens or two, a rugged tripod (a Tiltall is a good start), a spot meter, and a load of film and holders... for under a grand.
If you don't have a darkroom, do yourself a favor and get a $180 Harrison Pup Tent to load film in. Also, if you can afford it, get a Fuji Instant film back and a supply of Fuji Instant film (they make two sizes, the smaller, less expensive size works in your 4x5 although it leaves off a small portion of the image).
http://4photolab.com is one of the best mail-order processing labs, run by my friend Edgar Praus, who will help guide you if you need a lab.
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Steve M.
Veteran
The gold standard for this sort of thing has always been a Graflex Crown Graphic w/ a Graflok back. Lighter than the a Speed Graphic, and more than enough movements for landscapes. $200 should get you a good one w/ a working rangefinder. I sure wouldn't put any more money than this in the experiment until you see if LF is for you. It ain't for everyone, and it sure wasn't for me, but I would never have known unless I tried it.
As much as I disliked the slowness and weight of LF (not to mention that my MF lenses were sharper), I sure miss that Crown Graphic camera.
As much as I disliked the slowness and weight of LF (not to mention that my MF lenses were sharper), I sure miss that Crown Graphic camera.