noisycheese
Normal(ish) Human
Here's some good career advice for those who are trying to make the leap from photography as a hobby to photography as a career.
Like many of my peers, I have struggled for many years to "make it" as a professional photographer. There are always those who think we should work for free (or for nearly free) because we don't have a brick and mortar studio and - in their opinion, at least - we are not "real professional photographers."
I say avoid these types like the plague. Why? Because nothing in this world is free.
Think about the last camera body, lens, tripod, flash unit or camera bag you acquired. Ruling out your birthday, Christmas, anniversary or other gift giving occasion where friends and loved ones present gifts, ask yourself:
Was it free? If you acquired it from B&H photo, Camera West, Tamarkin, Adorama or another photographic retailer, the answer is "No."
Here is a hypothetical situation for your consideration: What would the response be if some tool of a photographer walked into B&H photo, Camera West, Tamarkin, Adorama or another photographic retailer and said, "I need this lens (or camera, or tripod, etc.) I won’t pay you, but I have connections, so I’m a good person to have in your court, if you know what I mean. I could definitely open some doors for you.”
They would be laughed - or thrown - out of the store, that's what.
Our response to requests for free/almost free professional photographic services should be exactly the same as a retailer's response to the above "opportunity" being offered to them.
That is not to say that you should not use your photographic talents and services to benefit a worthy charitable organization of your choosing - quite the opposite, in fact.
However - don't confuse the rendering of such assistance or service with being approached by individuals, organizations or businesses who have an outlook of self-entitlement and make thinly veiled "requests" that border on being demands.
If you give in to such aggressive "requests" for free photographic services or allow the prospective client to determine the value of your services by letting them set the price, you do yourself an enormous disservice. Word will get around that you are "easy." That is not a reputation that is conducive to income generation for your photographic career.
Of course, offer a good value for the fees you charge - but don't be "easy." Don't let the client dictate the price for your services. And don't be afraid to say walk away from a prospective client who tries low-ball you in terms of compensation for your services or tries to get you to work for free.
Let the client negotiate - but don't let them dictate. There's a big difference.
JMHO.
Link: http://petapixel.com/2013/06/09/wanted-free-photos/
Like many of my peers, I have struggled for many years to "make it" as a professional photographer. There are always those who think we should work for free (or for nearly free) because we don't have a brick and mortar studio and - in their opinion, at least - we are not "real professional photographers."
I say avoid these types like the plague. Why? Because nothing in this world is free.
Think about the last camera body, lens, tripod, flash unit or camera bag you acquired. Ruling out your birthday, Christmas, anniversary or other gift giving occasion where friends and loved ones present gifts, ask yourself:
Was it free? If you acquired it from B&H photo, Camera West, Tamarkin, Adorama or another photographic retailer, the answer is "No."
Here is a hypothetical situation for your consideration: What would the response be if some tool of a photographer walked into B&H photo, Camera West, Tamarkin, Adorama or another photographic retailer and said, "I need this lens (or camera, or tripod, etc.) I won’t pay you, but I have connections, so I’m a good person to have in your court, if you know what I mean. I could definitely open some doors for you.”
They would be laughed - or thrown - out of the store, that's what.
Our response to requests for free/almost free professional photographic services should be exactly the same as a retailer's response to the above "opportunity" being offered to them.
That is not to say that you should not use your photographic talents and services to benefit a worthy charitable organization of your choosing - quite the opposite, in fact.
However - don't confuse the rendering of such assistance or service with being approached by individuals, organizations or businesses who have an outlook of self-entitlement and make thinly veiled "requests" that border on being demands.
If you give in to such aggressive "requests" for free photographic services or allow the prospective client to determine the value of your services by letting them set the price, you do yourself an enormous disservice. Word will get around that you are "easy." That is not a reputation that is conducive to income generation for your photographic career.
Of course, offer a good value for the fees you charge - but don't be "easy." Don't let the client dictate the price for your services. And don't be afraid to say walk away from a prospective client who tries low-ball you in terms of compensation for your services or tries to get you to work for free.
Let the client negotiate - but don't let them dictate. There's a big difference.
JMHO.
Link: http://petapixel.com/2013/06/09/wanted-free-photos/
jim sparx
crank
I can think of lots of jobs that don't require a brick and mortar store. People work out of their garages, home offices and now internet stores. I sell books on Ebay, several thousand philosophy, medical, psychological, metaphysical, religious titles from my library stored in a barn. I've never had anyone ask me if i have a store they could come to. So thinking you need a brick and mortar to satisfy someone's inquiry about whether you run a legitimate business, is not a valid fear or excuse for not going into business.
And as far a working for free, BS, I have a family to support.
If you want a business, do lots of advertising, get a web site, business cards, get a business license ( a requirement in some states). If you represent yourself as a business, then no one is going to question, 'are you a real photographer?'
In any case, stop looking for excuses that prevent you from doing what you want to do.
And as far a working for free, BS, I have a family to support.
If you want a business, do lots of advertising, get a web site, business cards, get a business license ( a requirement in some states). If you represent yourself as a business, then no one is going to question, 'are you a real photographer?'
In any case, stop looking for excuses that prevent you from doing what you want to do.
Hmmm, doing a wedding for free (as a beginner) just to gain some experience might not be such a horrible way to approach the matter if you are unsure of if you are ready. At least if you f up, they can't get upset. 
thegman
Veteran
Hmmm, doing a wedding for free (as a beginner) just to gain some experience might not be such a horrible way to approach the matter if you are unsure of if you are ready. At least if you f up, they can't get upset.
I agree. Everyone has to start somewhere, and if you have no experience at all, you're unproven, no portfolio, it's not so terrible that people might not want to pay you like you're a seasoned pro.
It's annoying when people want services for free, but all you have to do is say no.
I mean, what is a fair price for a wedding photographer with no more experience at it than I do? (None.)
FrankS
Registered User
Hmmm, doing a wedding for free (as a beginner) just to gain some experience might not be such a horrible way to approach the matter if you are unsure of if you are ready. At least if you f up, they can't get upset.
Emphatically no.
Consider the wedding couple who have no pictures if the beginner happens to screw up. Of course they would be upset. If you aren't good enough to charge for your services, you shouldn't be offering yourself to the public.
Instead, gain experience by shooting at friends' weddings that are being covered by someone capable enough to be charging for their services.
As you get more competent, be a "second shooter".
Then, only once you are capable, offer yourself as a wedding photographer, and charge for your services.
Just my opinion
As a Pro I know you are opposed to anything free when it comes to your livelihood and I can respect that. We both know photograph and brain surgery have different paths to becoming "good enough." One deals in memories (for a wedding) and the other deals with someone's life.
However, there is some truth to doing a little bit of free work when you are a beginner... if only to see if you can do it or not. No pressure. I see it as similar to non-paying Work experience internships. I knew people that worked at garages for free when they were young just so they can get their hands on tools and learn about working on cars.
This is from the workers point of view, not the one expecting something for free (which I think is truly BS).
Emphatically maybe!
We are talking about someone who is being asked to do a wedding for free... the couple gets what they pay for IMO (screw up or not). To me, if the couple wants quality, they should pay someone who doesn't need "the exposure."
FrankS
Registered User
There's one fault in your opinion. If there's no pressure, then you can't be sure if you're good enough during the real thing with all of the responsibility on your shoulders. Have you done paid solitary wedding shooting, JS?
jim sparx
crank
We can disagree on this. It's nice to have a test run sometimes. If you can't get results without pressure, then you know better than to do it when somethings on the line. There are plenty of jobs that implement test runs.
I guess this is where you are going to say my opinion doesn't matter if I haven't right?
Thankfully, no. I was smart enough to tell my friends to hire someone who knows what they are doing weddings wise so I could just fill in the gaps with more personal photos during the reception. It ended up working well this way when I've done it (a long time ago). I'm not interested in photography as a career. It's what I do to get away from my job and I enjoy the freedom of doing what I want with my photography.
I think the bottom line is that you get what you pay for and that anyone asking for something for free should expect to receive more trouble than it's worth. However, I could see why someone with a camera may want to attempt to do something for free just to see if they can. Most of the time, it'll be a waste of time for both parties though.
KM-25
Well-known
I did weddings from age 18 to 21, I never thought to take one on my self until I had it really down. So I assisted for a year, then second shooter for another year.
But here is the real deal on free until you make it:
This is not 1993 folks, it is 2013 and by the time I hit the "Submit Reply" button, about a dozen so called "Photographers" will have called back the perspective bride, hit the send button on a reply to a bride and groom's parents and agreed to do a wedding for free based on it being "Good Experience".
So if you can do simple math and make reasonable predictions based on that math, you have your answer as to what "Freetography" is going to get you. In case you can not add this up, I will help out a bit. You are doing it for free and then some, you are instead *paying* the customer because I doubt they are giving you a ride to the event, having the event at your home and certainly are not paying for your cameras, etc. In other words, you are not doing the work for free, you are paying out at least something in the form of clean pressed clothing, gas money, etc to shoot their wedding and if you don't do it for free, someone else will, because this kind of person is not looking to help you build a portfolio but only get their wedding photos for free.
The bottom line is that the most valuable experience you can gain in any form of photography in 2013 is learning how to charge at least something right out of the gate, anyone can learn how to make clean frames in a camera now...anyone.
I just don't understand why people think that what *might* have worked to get you experience in the 90's will be of any value to you in 2013, it won't, by the time you think you are ready to charge, several hundred more desperate weekend wannabes will have added to the ever growing pool of free.
But if you are truly amazing in your talent, then you will identify with how to charge something right away based on feedback from both close knit peer groups and who would hopefully be your mentors if you went down the right path and chose to assist rather than give it all away.
I honestly feel bad for many people starting out. They get likes on Facebook, gushing commentary on sites like Flickr and think that there is a golden nugget out there for them when there is not. I think that within 10-15 year's time, only 10% of the money there was 10 years ago for photographers will be out there and only the most driven and deeply talented will make it. The rest will become yet another statistic.
I count my self really lucky as to have been there, done that over 25 years ago so I have created a roadmap in going forward that *should* work for at least another 10 years. If I can keep going beyond that, all the better, but for now, I am happy with that outlook. So far so good....
But free leading to paid work in the year 2013...?...highly unlikely folks....
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
I take it you don't have a lot of experience of industrial or commercial sales. Your example occurs frequently among large companies. I know, as I've been involved in several such deals.
It is common practice for businesses moving into new areas of technology to "work for free" with suitable potential customers, providing either services or products. The idea is to build mutual trust that the vendor can meet the customer's needs in an area which is new to the vendor. It also happens with well known software vendors, who release free "beta versions" to encourage potential customers.
I'm sure that many successful commercial photographers have started their careers by providing free services to carefully selected potential customers. The key, of course, lies in the phrase "carefully selected".
FrankS
Registered User
Well yes, your opinion would carry more weight if you had experience to back it up. It is helpful to know if we're listening to an informed or uninformed (not based on experience) opinion.
KM-25
Well-known
In the 80's or 90's, possibly, but not in the age of Freetography in 2013. There is just far, far too much free to be had in terms of average or below average work to pay for it, the whole world knows it, that market is never coming back.
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
I'm not sure I understand that, probably another of those famous "separated by a common language" issues.
If you're saying that the parties involved would have a contractual relationship, then that's very much a given. In the instances where I've been involved, there are all sorts of non-transference of rights, non disclosure and other such conditions to the deal, which filter down to the staff of both organisations. The old saying about strong fences and good neighbours is pretty much the rule in these cases.
noisycheese
Normal(ish) Human
After reading all the above posts, I think we can conclude that the moral of the story is It's rough out there - let's be careful!
It seems that in today's world, it is even tougher to make money with your camera than it was 20 years ago. Some photographers manage to do it, though.
The days of winging it are pretty much over - a viable business model is critical these days.
It seems that in today's world, it is even tougher to make money with your camera than it was 20 years ago. Some photographers manage to do it, though.
The days of winging it are pretty much over - a viable business model is critical these days.
Oh, in that case, most of this forum shouldn't give their opinion on anything.
I only said a simple comment about how I could understand why someone might want to try to do something for free just to see if they can do it. That is all. I'm not sure why inexperience shooting weddings negates that particular opinion, other than you just want to make me feel bad about myself and my skills (it didn't work).
I have a feeling that "free" work is just one of those words that brings some Pros to this site just looking for a fight. You cannot have an opinion about this topic without getting an overboard response by someone who takes a simple comment way out of context.
I never said it was a good idea or that I would do it. I just said that I could see why someone might want to do it when they are starting out. I didn't say they should either.
Bill Clark
Veteran
Little tidbits about my philo:
I'm an entrepreneur. I chose being a sales rep.(commission paid on sales only) for 30 years, professional photographer since 2002 to 2013. I'm getting into retirement mode however, I recently signed a large business portrait gig taking place in October.
Being an entrepreneur is first. I've expressed it with two business models. Both worked quite well.
This is my 6th year serving on the board of the Twin Cities PPA (TCPPA)(Our Blog: http://www.tcppablog.com/). It is my 5th as Treasurer for the organization. I find that most folks seem to put the cart before the horse. They want the latest gadget or make the glitzy-artsy photos but haven't quite figured out how to make money.
People come and go. What saves them is having a significant other pull the financial weight. They have some fun, maybe make enough to pay for some stuff.
Owing your own business and making money that allows you to eke out a decent living is a challenge.
I'm an entrepreneur. I chose being a sales rep.(commission paid on sales only) for 30 years, professional photographer since 2002 to 2013. I'm getting into retirement mode however, I recently signed a large business portrait gig taking place in October.
Being an entrepreneur is first. I've expressed it with two business models. Both worked quite well.
This is my 6th year serving on the board of the Twin Cities PPA (TCPPA)(Our Blog: http://www.tcppablog.com/). It is my 5th as Treasurer for the organization. I find that most folks seem to put the cart before the horse. They want the latest gadget or make the glitzy-artsy photos but haven't quite figured out how to make money.
People come and go. What saves them is having a significant other pull the financial weight. They have some fun, maybe make enough to pay for some stuff.
Owing your own business and making money that allows you to eke out a decent living is a challenge.
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
It does sometimes feel that way.
Perhaps it's an over-reaction following the threat to their way of life. After all, the English weavers got rather upset about the steam mills, which were in some ways analogous to the effect of digital on photography. Perhaps we should be glad that, so far, no-one has burnt down any digital camera users.
As Bill says above: "Owing your own business and making money that allows you to eke out a decent living is a challenge."