niten
Newbie
My siblings and I are chipping in to get my father a Leica M3 body for his upcoming 60th birthday. We have done some research and have some basic knowledge of what to look for and look out for when purchasing these Leica cameras. We do plan to get a CLA done to make sure everything is in working order, but we want to avoid any viewfinder issues as it seems these can be both complicated and expensive repairs. Unfortunately, we do not have neither the necessary experience nor knowledge to determine what the condition of the viewfinder is in this particular Leica M3. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
The two pictures below are what is seen from the viewfinder of a M3 body we are potentially looking to buy. As you can see in the first picture the 135mm framelines are very dim (can only be made out in certain lights) at the upper and upper left portions. The second picture shows the 90mm framelines to be in decent shape as they are showing up nice and bright. The 50mm framelines along the edges of both pictures also come in nice and clear with only very minor spotting, which is nearly indistinguishable. In addition to the 135mm framelines, the rangefinder patch in the center has a clearly visible black patch (as seen in both pictures).
50mm frameline -- okay
90mm frameline -- okay
135mm frameline -- issue?
rangefinder patch -- issue?
Pictures:
The two pictures below are what is seen from the viewfinder of a M3 body we are potentially looking to buy. As you can see in the first picture the 135mm framelines are very dim (can only be made out in certain lights) at the upper and upper left portions. The second picture shows the 90mm framelines to be in decent shape as they are showing up nice and bright. The 50mm framelines along the edges of both pictures also come in nice and clear with only very minor spotting, which is nearly indistinguishable. In addition to the 135mm framelines, the rangefinder patch in the center has a clearly visible black patch (as seen in both pictures).
50mm frameline -- okay
90mm frameline -- okay
135mm frameline -- issue?
rangefinder patch -- issue?
Pictures:
Monochrom
Well-known
Hi, framelines look ok...viewfinder looks quite clean it always have that yellowish cast...that ok..
But the rangefinder must be tested for a contrasty image that must be clear to see and clear to determine the two images that will form the focus point.
that one cannot be seen in the pics you posted...try to look an object that is clearly in foreground, perhaps with that wall in the background...that would be a better way to tell you more about the RF condition.
Cheers!
But the rangefinder must be tested for a contrasty image that must be clear to see and clear to determine the two images that will form the focus point.
that one cannot be seen in the pics you posted...try to look an object that is clearly in foreground, perhaps with that wall in the background...that would be a better way to tell you more about the RF condition.
Cheers!
niten
Newbie
Thanks, i'll send an email to request a few more pictures from the seller.
I will have those posted and keep this thread updated. Hopefully that will help clarify the condition.
Livesteamer
Well-known
I would suggest that you consider buying from a known dealer who will stand behind the sale. You might pay a little more but you should get a good product with no problems. KEH is highly regarded and so is Stan Tamarkin. I do not work for either company. I have just bought too many e bay items that were not as advertised. If I want a quality used Leica item, I would go to a dealer like these or others. Just my 2 cents. Good Luck. Joe
jmcd
Well-known
I would ask for a photo of the window from the front, to check against potential balsam separation.
Cameras from Tamarkin will have been thoroughly combed over. I have never had a problem with a camera from them. And they will talk to you on the phone about any particular questions you might have about a specific item. Superb service.
Cameras from Tamarkin will have been thoroughly combed over. I have never had a problem with a camera from them. And they will talk to you on the phone about any particular questions you might have about a specific item. Superb service.
niten
Newbie
Both of you mentioning Stan Tamarkin's site prompted me to check it out. It certainly would ease my mind a bit dealing with someone known and established for their service. I took a look at the prices and at a first glance it does seem a bit higher than we were looking at, but either way I will discuss the possibility with my brother and sister before deciding anything in that regard.
I sent a follow-up email also requesting a picture from the front of the viewfinder like you suggested. Still waiting on a response.
Thanks for all the quick help and suggestions thus far.
niten
Newbie
Below are the four photos he provided of the viewfinder from the front.
He said he would try taking a few shots that show the viewfinder framelines with an object in the foreground and contrast tomorrow afternoon. Until then are the following pictures telling in any way?
Personally I am unable to take away anything from the shots from the front.
He said he would try taking a few shots that show the viewfinder framelines with an object in the foreground and contrast tomorrow afternoon. Until then are the following pictures telling in any way?
Personally I am unable to take away anything from the shots from the front.
Nope, they're blurry from hand shake so are useless.
If one was sharp, it might be possible to see any separation etc. in the finder optics. Maybe you can ask the seller to reshoot the same shot with the digital camera supported by a book or something to prevent hand shake.
niten
Newbie
I pointed out what you observed.
He said he will try again tomorrow when he takes the other shots. He claims he will switch over to a camera rather than his phone.
Back to waiting.
hepcat
Former PH, USN
for comparison
for comparison
Here's an M4-P with viewfinder separation. The M3's VF is constructed differently but the separation, if there is any, will look similar to this although it may just be in a corner rather than covering half the frame.
for comparison
Here's an M4-P with viewfinder separation. The M3's VF is constructed differently but the separation, if there is any, will look similar to this although it may just be in a corner rather than covering half the frame.
Attachments
Vickko
Veteran
One poster has asked that you look at the secondary image (the one you see when you are focusing). I don't think the owner has sent photos of it yet.
The secondary image needs to be contrasty. On old M3 cameras, it can be faded and low contrast, and that can create problems for focusing.
The secondary image needs to be contrasty. On old M3 cameras, it can be faded and low contrast, and that can create problems for focusing.
maddoc
... likes film again.
The VF eye side piece should be pointed against a bright light source and the RF window (the small one, to the left when looking on the front of the camera) should be inspected for black spots indicating separation etc.
Ljós
Well-known
Good advice from many sides here.
Just to fair to the seller, also: I think he is doing not do bad a job at providing the pictures. Granted, the ones from the front are not sharp enough to be SURE. But would you not agree that the pictures through the viewfinder are quite well made? One of the best visualizations of what an M3 finder looks like I have seen so far.
To the OP: even if the forum
comes to the conclusion that the viewfinder checks out optically, what is not yet established is whether the rangefinder is accurate!
In the situation of getting a camera for a "round" birthday, as a present.... I would concur with the other posters who steer you into the direction of a renowned dealer.
Certainly the additional pictures will help the seller to move his M3, even if you politely decline at this point.
Greetings! Ljós
Just to fair to the seller, also: I think he is doing not do bad a job at providing the pictures. Granted, the ones from the front are not sharp enough to be SURE. But would you not agree that the pictures through the viewfinder are quite well made? One of the best visualizations of what an M3 finder looks like I have seen so far.
To the OP: even if the forum
comes to the conclusion that the viewfinder checks out optically, what is not yet established is whether the rangefinder is accurate!In the situation of getting a camera for a "round" birthday, as a present.... I would concur with the other posters who steer you into the direction of a renowned dealer.
Certainly the additional pictures will help the seller to move his M3, even if you politely decline at this point.
Greetings! Ljós
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
To answer the original poster's questions -- 1) yes, there's definitely a problem with the 135 framelines -- the upper left corner lines should be visible.
2) the spot in the middle of the RF patch should be removed -- I think it's nothing more than a spot of dust, in which case it's nothing more than an irritation, but it should be cleaned out. (If it's a sign of separation, that's definitely more serious, and may not be curable.)
3) definitely see how bright the secondary image is, since that will make all the difference in focusing.
I think the 135 frameline should be fixable; same with the dust spot in the RF patch (if indeed that's what it is). If instead it's separation, and if the RF secondary image is faint, these may not be fixable, even by a topnotch technician like Sherry Krauter or DAG -- unless they have replacement parts.
If the guy is willing to knock his price down to compensate for the cost of servicing (which could be $300 easily), keep talking with him. Otherwise, there are plenty of really nice M3s out there. In fact, there might be some people on this forum who have one to sell you! (Including me)
2) the spot in the middle of the RF patch should be removed -- I think it's nothing more than a spot of dust, in which case it's nothing more than an irritation, but it should be cleaned out. (If it's a sign of separation, that's definitely more serious, and may not be curable.)
3) definitely see how bright the secondary image is, since that will make all the difference in focusing.
I think the 135 frameline should be fixable; same with the dust spot in the RF patch (if indeed that's what it is). If instead it's separation, and if the RF secondary image is faint, these may not be fixable, even by a topnotch technician like Sherry Krauter or DAG -- unless they have replacement parts.
If the guy is willing to knock his price down to compensate for the cost of servicing (which could be $300 easily), keep talking with him. Otherwise, there are plenty of really nice M3s out there. In fact, there might be some people on this forum who have one to sell you! (Including me)
pb908
Well-known
my past experience doing cla of several M3 shows me that the 135mm frameline has a design flaw. The issue is because the prism for the RF light path was in front of the frameline area and all assembly are facing directly to the frameline window. The prism blocks some light to the portion of 135mm frameline from glowing uniformly. This behaviour changes as we focus from infinity to 1m as the frameline move diagonally. I forget which side of the frameline having this issue, but that is one of the reason i don't like M3.
On M2, M4 and M6, the RF lightpath is not facing forward directly to the frameline window, so frameline lightpath is not interfered by RF mechanism.
If you want to use M3 for 50mm only, i don't see the 135mm frameline is going to be an issue.
On M2, M4 and M6, the RF lightpath is not facing forward directly to the frameline window, so frameline lightpath is not interfered by RF mechanism.
If you want to use M3 for 50mm only, i don't see the 135mm frameline is going to be an issue.
niten
Newbie
Thanks for all the advice in the past day.
It is greatly appreciated.
The seller got in contact with me again a couple hours ago and sent a bunch of pictures. I don't want to bog down this post with them all (15), so I will first just include the few showing the view through the viewfinder. Let me know what you think of them and what can be taken away from these shots.
I thought the 3rd shot was a little too dark, but I included it anyway.
It is greatly appreciated.
The seller got in contact with me again a couple hours ago and sent a bunch of pictures. I don't want to bog down this post with them all (15), so I will first just include the few showing the view through the viewfinder. Let me know what you think of them and what can be taken away from these shots.
I thought the 3rd shot was a little too dark, but I included it anyway.
niten
Newbie
The following are the 7 pictures he took of the viewfinder from the front.
They seem to show things a bit clearer than the pictures from last night. Also looks like he tried getting different angles into the viewfinder. A few are slightly out of focus and/or dark but hopefully some of the following pictures can be helpful. Can anyone tell me if they see anything out of the ordinary here?
I see a little dust in some of the pictures, but I am unable to make out anything similar to the separation that hepcat shared a few posts up.
They seem to show things a bit clearer than the pictures from last night. Also looks like he tried getting different angles into the viewfinder. A few are slightly out of focus and/or dark but hopefully some of the following pictures can be helpful. Can anyone tell me if they see anything out of the ordinary here?
I see a little dust in some of the pictures, but I am unable to make out anything similar to the separation that hepcat shared a few posts up.
Monochrom
Well-known
Fine news....
Have to tell you in the first pics there´s no balsam separation....reafirmed in the next and better pictures you received from your seller.
Balsam separation can be seen clearly through the VF even in those dim first pictures and there´s no such flaw.
Have to say that RF patch pics look promising.
Above all i have to say you the seller has good will and that fact speaks for itself!
Hope you get a nice looking and perfect functioning M3!!!
Have to tell you in the first pics there´s no balsam separation....reafirmed in the next and better pictures you received from your seller.
Balsam separation can be seen clearly through the VF even in those dim first pictures and there´s no such flaw.
Have to say that RF patch pics look promising.
Above all i have to say you the seller has good will and that fact speaks for itself!
Hope you get a nice looking and perfect functioning M3!!!
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
Yes, the seller seems to be quite willing to cooperate with your requests; he gets points for that in my book.
