fwellers
Member
Hello,
I didn't know where to put this general type thread about film, with all the specialized subforums, so I just plunked it here, and hope it works.
I'm seriously considering going the RF/Film route, coming from being a photo newbie with a Nikon D90. Been lurking for a while, and researching as much as I could.
The fine people over in the ZI subforum helped me select my theoretical next rig, a Zeiss Ikon with 50mm Planar. Now comes the hard part. What to do with film ? I don't expect you all to answer all my questions, but if you can point me to the best places to get them answered, I'd be obliged also.
For simplicity sake I am thinking of sticking with Black and White, at least at first.
Some of my more pressing and general questions are:
1) Money is definitely an object. What kind of processing should I do to start ? Have jpegs made at Costco ?, learn to develop my own negatives or slides ? , ......
2) If the develop my own route, what do I do with the negative/slides ? Do I buy an enlarger, make wet prints and scan on a cheap scanner right from the prints for the ones I want to go electronic with ?
Or do I need to invest in a medium type scanner ?
Or is there another option ?
3) Which is the cheapest route that will give decent results at least worthy of the equipment I am using and my own beginning skill level ?
4) Less pressing, but how do you all organize and file your negatives/slides/proofs etc.. ? With digital it's easy, just make a file structure in the computer. But I can see myself having tons of shoeboxes around with negatives, where I can't find anything ,unless there is a system.
I'm betting there are some neat systems for doign that among you folks. Maybe that question is worth a thread on it's own ??
Anyway, sorry for such a jumble of questions, but if you can point me to the best place to learn and get started ( Lord there is a ton of info around about film, but I just need to get started somewhere. Too much to just dive into without some direction ).
Thank you !
I didn't know where to put this general type thread about film, with all the specialized subforums, so I just plunked it here, and hope it works.
I'm seriously considering going the RF/Film route, coming from being a photo newbie with a Nikon D90. Been lurking for a while, and researching as much as I could.
The fine people over in the ZI subforum helped me select my theoretical next rig, a Zeiss Ikon with 50mm Planar. Now comes the hard part. What to do with film ? I don't expect you all to answer all my questions, but if you can point me to the best places to get them answered, I'd be obliged also.
For simplicity sake I am thinking of sticking with Black and White, at least at first.
Some of my more pressing and general questions are:
1) Money is definitely an object. What kind of processing should I do to start ? Have jpegs made at Costco ?, learn to develop my own negatives or slides ? , ......
2) If the develop my own route, what do I do with the negative/slides ? Do I buy an enlarger, make wet prints and scan on a cheap scanner right from the prints for the ones I want to go electronic with ?
Or do I need to invest in a medium type scanner ?
Or is there another option ?
3) Which is the cheapest route that will give decent results at least worthy of the equipment I am using and my own beginning skill level ?
4) Less pressing, but how do you all organize and file your negatives/slides/proofs etc.. ? With digital it's easy, just make a file structure in the computer. But I can see myself having tons of shoeboxes around with negatives, where I can't find anything ,unless there is a system.
I'm betting there are some neat systems for doign that among you folks. Maybe that question is worth a thread on it's own ??
Anyway, sorry for such a jumble of questions, but if you can point me to the best place to learn and get started ( Lord there is a ton of info around about film, but I just need to get started somewhere. Too much to just dive into without some direction ).
Thank you !
cmdrzed
wallflower
I was in the same boat as you not long ago. To answer a few of your questions:
I use www.freestylephoto.biz as my photo supply source. They have very good prices and if you are looking for good, cheap film then look at their Arista Premium film. The 100/400 has been compared to Kodak Plus-X/Tri-X, respectively. When I started out I went with Kodak Tri-X 400 and Diafine as the film developer. Diafine is a simple developer to use and was excellent for me starting out. Some people love it, some hate it. However, I didn't have to worry about much. 3 min in the first solution, 3 min in second solution, then fix. Done.
When it came to making prints, I had to take the negatives to a local store. That got old quick so I placed an ad on craigslist stating that I was searching for an enlarger. Within two days I had one for $20. I am, however, considering a scanner so you may want to look into those if you have no luck with a reasonable enlarger.
Hope my rambling helps.
I use www.freestylephoto.biz as my photo supply source. They have very good prices and if you are looking for good, cheap film then look at their Arista Premium film. The 100/400 has been compared to Kodak Plus-X/Tri-X, respectively. When I started out I went with Kodak Tri-X 400 and Diafine as the film developer. Diafine is a simple developer to use and was excellent for me starting out. Some people love it, some hate it. However, I didn't have to worry about much. 3 min in the first solution, 3 min in second solution, then fix. Done.
When it came to making prints, I had to take the negatives to a local store. That got old quick so I placed an ad on craigslist stating that I was searching for an enlarger. Within two days I had one for $20. I am, however, considering a scanner so you may want to look into those if you have no luck with a reasonable enlarger.
Hope my rambling helps.
Gradskater
Well-known
I did the same thing, Arista premium 400 and diafine. I got all the chemicals and containers from Freestyle as well. I think I got all the stuff for about $60. That combo really is your best bet for getting your feet wet with black and white film. I scan all of my negatives on a Plustek 7300 I got for about $200. Many people prefer nikon scanners, but the plustek does a great job. You can see the results on my flickr page, all the black and white pictures were scanned with the plustek. I use silverfast software that comes with the scanner.
I store my negatives in a binder in plastic sleeves, and so far that seems to work well. I skip a line and insert an index card cut to size in between the rolls. On the index card I write the date, location, camera body and lens.
I store my negatives in a binder in plastic sleeves, and so far that seems to work well. I skip a line and insert an index card cut to size in between the rolls. On the index card I write the date, location, camera body and lens.
cmdrzed
wallflower
I forgot to post the page I was thinking of. This page illustrates how to develop film. Scroll down toward the bottom of the page and you will find 6 tutorials for development. When done with those, peruse his photos. Good stuff.
http://www.markushartel.com/tutorials/
http://www.markushartel.com/tutorials/
sojournerphoto
Veteran
Cheapest way to print B&W is with a second hand enlarger. If you do C41 B&W (Ilford XP2 and something Kodak) then you can get it processed and scanned easily at any local store. If you want to buy a scanner there's loads of advice, but to do good B&W will also need a decent printer, so the costs can rack up.
Mike
Mike
kxl
Social Documentary
1) When you buy the ZI plus Planar, go to one of the RFF sponsors, popflash.photo. Ask for the ZI plus Planar bundle. You end up saving money that way. The only decision point is black v. chrome (and do NOT pose that question here, since it is religion for some).
2) Learn to develop your own. It's fun and ultimately satisfying. BEFORE you buy anything, just order a reel (plastic or steel) and buy 1 CHEAP roll of film. In total darkness or blindfloded, try to load the film onto the reel. That is the most difficult part in developing your own negs. Once you can do that with confidence, the rest is easy (and can be done with the lights on).
3) Buy a scanner. Save up to get a good one, like a Nikon V or 5000 - discontinued, but can find them. In the meantime, just have them scanned at Costco.
4) Freestyle is THE place to buy your film and dev equipment. Do get Arista Premium 400. Diafine is a good suggestion since it is easy to use, but in theory Diafine only allows you to use a single EI per film. For Arista Premium 400, it is typically 1250. Note however that I said "in theory" since I do know of some on this forum who have used Arista 400 (@ 400 or @800 or @1600) with Diafine and their images have come out okay. YMMV
Good luck,
Keith
2) Learn to develop your own. It's fun and ultimately satisfying. BEFORE you buy anything, just order a reel (plastic or steel) and buy 1 CHEAP roll of film. In total darkness or blindfloded, try to load the film onto the reel. That is the most difficult part in developing your own negs. Once you can do that with confidence, the rest is easy (and can be done with the lights on).
3) Buy a scanner. Save up to get a good one, like a Nikon V or 5000 - discontinued, but can find them. In the meantime, just have them scanned at Costco.
4) Freestyle is THE place to buy your film and dev equipment. Do get Arista Premium 400. Diafine is a good suggestion since it is easy to use, but in theory Diafine only allows you to use a single EI per film. For Arista Premium 400, it is typically 1250. Note however that I said "in theory" since I do know of some on this forum who have used Arista 400 (@ 400 or @800 or @1600) with Diafine and their images have come out okay. YMMV
Good luck,
Keith
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Zonan
Well-known
Gradskater-
Glad to hear your reference to the Plustek scanner. Recent posts around the net are bemoaning the demise of the Nikon LS5000, and a search turned up the Plustek at a quite reasonable price. I think that it was Shutterbug that recently had some very favorable comments on the 7500 from the digital columnist. So let's hope Plustek stays in business. If my Nikon LS5000 dies, that's where I'd go.
Glad to hear your reference to the Plustek scanner. Recent posts around the net are bemoaning the demise of the Nikon LS5000, and a search turned up the Plustek at a quite reasonable price. I think that it was Shutterbug that recently had some very favorable comments on the 7500 from the digital columnist. So let's hope Plustek stays in business. If my Nikon LS5000 dies, that's where I'd go.
Gradskater
Well-known
If you are scanning and using photoshop, then you can shoot Arista premium 400 anywhere from EI400 to EI1250, and develop in diafine. 1250 looks the best, but the other speeds are usable. EI1600 will work in a pinch, but it comes out very muddy. If you are making prints from the negatives in a darkroom, then I have no idea if you can be as flexible with the film.
fwellers
Member
Wow. This thread is even more full of replies than the others ! Thank you thank you !
Or should I thank you. You've given me so much more to chew on.
)
Before I take some time to research what you've given me, just a couple more questions.
1) Double, you certainly are sticking with me aren't you ? hahahaah. Thanks man.
what is C41. I keep hearing that term. Is it some kind of standard ? Is it a type of film ? I remember thinking that for starting, whatever C41 is, that is what I want to do, because it sounds easiest and most user friendly. But what is it exactly ?
What I currently do is just process my raw files into jpg through Nikon CaptureNx2 ( very easy ) and put them online. Then I send through my zenfolio account to mpix to make me the prints that I want. I don't get that many prints.
My main options it seems are:
1) Send the whole roll of film to somewhere to get negatives made and scanned jpgs that I can process with my CaptureNx2 ( I don't know photoshop and am in no hurry to learn it ).
2) Develop my negatives and then send those to be scanned. Sounds almost the same as #1 but may be a little cheaper ?? And may be a little safer since nobody has to expose the film ( I already did it ) and take a chance on them ruining it.
3) Develop my own negatives and buy a scanner to scan them, then process the digital images further.
3a) Does that turn them into a raw file ?
3b) If so, then can I also turn them into a jpg instead so I can process them with my Capture NX2 or how does that part work ?
4) Develop my own negatives and make my own prints out of some of them, and do either option 2 or 3 for ones I want online. ( I don't think making prints out of every image and scanning the print would be a cost or time effective solution ).
Is that about it ?
-- Which option should I choose ?
-- Are the Epson 700 and the Plustek scanners still currently sold so they can be repaired if broken ?
-- What's that about EI per film ? Is that supposed to be the speed rating of the film ( like the old ASA speed or the equivalent of digital ISO ) ? If so, what does that have to do with the developer fluid used ?
I think that's enough questions for this go around. I still have a lot of stuff to read that you all gave me anyway.
Thanks for your continued support folks I appreciate it !!
Or should I thank you. You've given me so much more to chew on.
)Before I take some time to research what you've given me, just a couple more questions.
1) Double, you certainly are sticking with me aren't you ? hahahaah. Thanks man.
what is C41. I keep hearing that term. Is it some kind of standard ? Is it a type of film ? I remember thinking that for starting, whatever C41 is, that is what I want to do, because it sounds easiest and most user friendly. But what is it exactly ?
What I currently do is just process my raw files into jpg through Nikon CaptureNx2 ( very easy ) and put them online. Then I send through my zenfolio account to mpix to make me the prints that I want. I don't get that many prints.
My main options it seems are:
1) Send the whole roll of film to somewhere to get negatives made and scanned jpgs that I can process with my CaptureNx2 ( I don't know photoshop and am in no hurry to learn it ).
2) Develop my negatives and then send those to be scanned. Sounds almost the same as #1 but may be a little cheaper ?? And may be a little safer since nobody has to expose the film ( I already did it ) and take a chance on them ruining it.
3) Develop my own negatives and buy a scanner to scan them, then process the digital images further.
3a) Does that turn them into a raw file ?
3b) If so, then can I also turn them into a jpg instead so I can process them with my Capture NX2 or how does that part work ?
4) Develop my own negatives and make my own prints out of some of them, and do either option 2 or 3 for ones I want online. ( I don't think making prints out of every image and scanning the print would be a cost or time effective solution ).
Is that about it ?
-- Which option should I choose ?
-- Are the Epson 700 and the Plustek scanners still currently sold so they can be repaired if broken ?
-- What's that about EI per film ? Is that supposed to be the speed rating of the film ( like the old ASA speed or the equivalent of digital ISO ) ? If so, what does that have to do with the developer fluid used ?
I think that's enough questions for this go around. I still have a lot of stuff to read that you all gave me anyway.
Thanks for your continued support folks I appreciate it !!
mwooten
light user
That's the big question isn't? Many of us have been down that road, and have taken all the forks we come to. My suggestion would be to find a local Community College, Tech School, or Art Museum that teaches analogue photography. That way you'll be able to learn to develop your own film with an instructor around to help you figure out what went wrong. You'll be able to experience the magic of seeing a black & white print appear before your very eyes. And it is magic no matter what the science is behind it.
--michael
p.s. C41 is the normal kind of film that CVS, Walgreens, and others process on site. It is color negative film.
Gradskater
Well-known
I can answer a couple of questions.
EI means exposure index (I think) and its just the speed you set on your cameras iso setting. So if you use tri-x (arista premium) and are going to develop in diafine, set your camera to iso 1250 and there you go. Each film behaved differently with each developer, and diafine is known for giving film a "speed boost". If you get arista premium 100, then shoot it at 200 or 320 for the best results in diafine.
Also, the plustek scanners are still being made far as I know, so there should be support for them if need be. I haven't had a problem with mine, and it gets knocked and bumped quite a bit.
EI means exposure index (I think) and its just the speed you set on your cameras iso setting. So if you use tri-x (arista premium) and are going to develop in diafine, set your camera to iso 1250 and there you go. Each film behaved differently with each developer, and diafine is known for giving film a "speed boost". If you get arista premium 100, then shoot it at 200 or 320 for the best results in diafine.
Also, the plustek scanners are still being made far as I know, so there should be support for them if need be. I haven't had a problem with mine, and it gets knocked and bumped quite a bit.
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fwellers
Member
Thanks guys. Couple more.
C41 is color standard negative film, then what is the standard for black and white film negatives ?
Gradskater you raise a question I've been thinking about. It sounds like you're saying something like EI of 1250 is the same as ISO 400 ? Arista 400 ( 400 speed ) needs to have a camera setting of 1250 ISO ? I don't get that.
But you mentioned something about only being able to use one speed with diafine.
I have been thinking that a big draw back to using film would be that if I have a roll in the camera, and it's 400 speed film, and then I go into a darker room and I need a higher ISO, then I'm pretty much screwed. I'll have to keep the camera ISO set to 400 so the meter will read the light and tell me I need a much slower shutter speed because it's darker.
But are you saying that some film/developer combinations actually allow you to change ISO settings on the fly while the same film is in the camera ? That would be so cool !!!!
Thanks,
C41 is color standard negative film, then what is the standard for black and white film negatives ?
Gradskater you raise a question I've been thinking about. It sounds like you're saying something like EI of 1250 is the same as ISO 400 ? Arista 400 ( 400 speed ) needs to have a camera setting of 1250 ISO ? I don't get that.
But you mentioned something about only being able to use one speed with diafine.
I have been thinking that a big draw back to using film would be that if I have a roll in the camera, and it's 400 speed film, and then I go into a darker room and I need a higher ISO, then I'm pretty much screwed. I'll have to keep the camera ISO set to 400 so the meter will read the light and tell me I need a much slower shutter speed because it's darker.
But are you saying that some film/developer combinations actually allow you to change ISO settings on the fly while the same film is in the camera ? That would be so cool !!!!
Thanks,
marcr1230
Well-known
C41 is a standard process/chemistry for color negatives
there are a couple of chromogenic black and white films that are developed in C41
i.e either you do standard B&W, usually at home, or you shoot C41 B&W and let the mini-lab develop it
there are a couple of chromogenic black and white films that are developed in C41
i.e either you do standard B&W, usually at home, or you shoot C41 B&W and let the mini-lab develop it
Gradskater
Well-known
Yes, you set the camera at 1250 to get the "best" results in that particular developer. Use Rodinal or something else, and all bets are off. But you are right, with the leeway of film, and all the tricks you can pull in photoshop with a good scan, then you can set the camera anywhere from 400 to 1600, and change it on the fly for the same roll of film. Check out a small test I did with Arista premium 100 where I did the very same thing. The "best" results were around iso200 (for that film in diafine). Go here.
fwellers
Member
Ah gotchya !! Thanks.
I will assume when you're buying film there is a spec on that film1 o that states whether it is C41 or not.
kxl
Social Documentary
The definition of EI (Exposure Index) as the film speed that you set for a given roll of film, while not a complete definition, is good enough for our use here. ISO is an international standard, and based on that standard the ISO of Arista Premium 400 is 400. However, you can set your film speed of your loaded film, such as Arista Premium 400 to any film speed and develop it accordingly.
For a single roll of film you need to have THE SAME rated speed for the entire roll. So, if you set it to 1250, you're stuck regardless of whether you shoot outdoors or indoors. That's one advantage of digital. For us film shooters, the solution is to have a second body.
fwellers
Member
Still a bit confused Gradskater. Thanks for the test btw.
Condensed, are you saying that with Diafane, Arista Premium or Triax 400 can be used and the camera can take shots anywhere between ISO 100 and ISO 800 and with a good scan can pretty much be adjusted to look good ?
Gradskater
Well-known
With tri-x and diafine, you can only really go faster, not slower. So you can set your cameras iso anywhere from 400 to 1600. You are not stuck with one iso speed, you can change it however you want, but the results will be more or less desirable. You might get blown highlights or blocked shadows at 400 or 1600 respectively, but you can work wonders with photoshop. "good" is just what you like, so experiment and you will find what works for you.
the film test i posted a link to is for iso100 film, but the camera I used was set between EI100 and EI400. Any faster and it would be too dark for my tastes, and any slower and the highlights would have been blown out. Same principle applies for iso400 film like tri-x (but only for developing in diafine
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Gradskater
Well-known
here is a picture I took a couple of hours ago. Arista premium 400 in diafine, but the camera set at iso1200. Nice range of tones, I like the way this film and developer come together.
fwellers
Member
Thanks for your patience Skater.
So just to make sure, you were using 400 speed film, but you set your camera to 1200 for the shot. That was because you were shooting in low light right ? IOW it works the same as with digital. You have some flexibility.
But actually not that much. With my D90 I can go from iso 100 ( and below actually ) to at least iso 1600 without much noise. A D700 can do much better than that.
I had heard film has a higher dynamic range than digital.
For that, I guess you would need a different combination of film/developer ?
So just to make sure, you were using 400 speed film, but you set your camera to 1200 for the shot. That was because you were shooting in low light right ? IOW it works the same as with digital. You have some flexibility.
But actually not that much. With my D90 I can go from iso 100 ( and below actually ) to at least iso 1600 without much noise. A D700 can do much better than that.
I had heard film has a higher dynamic range than digital.
For that, I guess you would need a different combination of film/developer ?