Help/Thoughts on IIIc

[JonWNC]

Hello. I have been doing a bunch of reading and searching about a potential IIIc purchase, but I'd like to get some more thoughts and input about it.
Based off the serial number, it is a 1949 IIIc (a few hundred under 500000) with a Summitar f=5cm 1:2 lens, serial number 7540XX.
I spoke with the owner, an older gentleman, who said he bought it "a long time ago" when he was in the service. He said it has not been used in a long time, and has just been stored in his closet. The one picture he was able to send me showed it to be in nice, clean condition, with some light chrome flaking off on the bottom front ( I guess this is fairly typical). There is a leather case for it, which he describes as being "used" (no picture).

I am wondering what kinds of things I should be looking for when checking the camera out in person: potential positives, what issues would be huge red flags, specific things to check etc. I think being able to inspect it in person makes it less of a gamble than buying one off the evilbay.
I've never owned a Leica before, so some pointers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Jon

 

[Drago]

It would probably need CLA, so not much to check. If the glass is clean and the price is good ... your choice

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Unscrew the lens and check the condition of the shutter curtains in both wound and unwound states. Make sure there are no holes, rips or crinkles or rubber peeling off.
Go through all the shutter speeds (only change them, lift and turn, when the shutter is tensioned!) and you might be able to spot if there is any curtain hang-up or capping.

Look through the rangefinder and see if the contrast of the patch is still good.

Yes flaking chrome is normal for the 1947-1950s IIIc cameras. Especially if it was kept in the ever-ready case.

The Summitar should be a coated version, not sure if it has the 6 or 10 aperture blades. The front lens surface is prone to have cleaning marks on it. If it hasn't, all the better. 😉

Uhm...you should probably also read up on bottom-loading and how to prevent burning holes in the shutter curtain.

Good luck! I don't have a post-1945 IIIc myself, but I have 5 wartime ones and I love them! 🙂

 

[KoNickon]

Real nice cameras. I got one myself that had been sitting for a long time. I had to have Youxin Ye overhaul it -- needed a new RF mirror; the shutter curtains also needed replacing. Slow speeds needed work too. I would expect some or all of those issues would be present in this camera too. How much is he asking?

 

[JonWNC]

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it. I've been reading a lot of threads here, and have also been reading the Leica Manual to help learn about this particular model. I'll do some more looking into the shutter curtain holes, thanks. I had planned on it needing a CLA at the minimum, some parts repair (like mentioned above) as a worst case scenario, which is why I appreciate the thoughts about what to look for when checking it out. I'm not really looking for a money pit camera right now.
The asking price is $350.

 

[Mr_Flibble]

At $350 it's a steal unless there is major damage to both camera and lens in my opinion.

 

[Bingley]

Agree w/ Mr. Fibble: that's a good price for the camera and lens. I purchased a 1949 vintage IIIc w/ Summitar from a member here a few years back, and eventually sent the camera body to Youxin Ye for a CLA, new beamsplitter, and new shutter curtains. It's a wonderful little shooter now, assuming one can live w/ Barnack idiosyncracies (I can). Check the shutter speeds, especially the slow speeds, while observing the shutter curtains with the lens off. You may want to get the shutter curtains replaced anyway if the camera has not been used for a long time. If the vf is dim, it can be brightened up w/ a CLA. It sounds like this camera may have been well cared for, if not used much, so there may not be anything seriously wrong w/ it that a CLA couldn't fix.

The Summitar is a very nice, and undervalued, lens, and if it's in good condition I'd snap the kit up in a heartbeat. Open the aperture wide, take a strong flashlight and shine it through the lens, looking for signs of haze or fungus on the glass elements. A little dust is OK. If there's haze or fungus the lens will need to be cleaned and serviced; fungus can (but doesn't necessarily) cause permanent damage. Youxin will clean lenses; Sherry Krauter also works on Summitars. Good luck!

 

[goamules]

I'm sorry, but $350 is not a steal. I was at a camera show last week and several Leica Barnacks in that range went unsold, as they do on Ebay. I had $295 on my IIIc with a Fed lens and everyone (dealers mostly) acted like I was crazy. I finally lowered my price to $150 just to get rid of it....and no one bought. It's sitting here now.

If you pay $350 and then need to put, say $200 into new shutters and a total CLA (worse case), you're at $550, and you'll be married to the camera forever. If you only need $100 worth of work (plus shipping/insurance) you're in it for $450. They typically sell on Ebay for $300 - $375 with that lens, AND a good description of how it's working. I would offer him $250.

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

A good summitar with clean glass is already worth USD 250 or more.

Ask the seller if he shot some roll recently: small pinholes in the curtains can not be seen by normal inspection of the curtains

 

[Harry Lime]

A few years ago I purchased a similar camera. It was purchased by a former GI in while in Germany and had sat in storage for a few decades. It came with an Elmer 3.5/50.

I can guarantee you that it will need a CLA, since the lubricants will have dried out a a few decades ago and the shutter speeds will be off.

Other than there is not much I can point out. It should be fine unless it's been dropped or otherwise abused and such damage should be pretty obvious. The chrome may be flaking, because it's an early post war example and Germany was still recovering. Check that the curtain is not wrinkled and that you have a functional rangefinder patch.

The IIIc was a bulletproof design. They made them by the trainload and they are very simple and reliable cameras.

http://www.yyecamera.com

Yeecamera can give her an overhaul at a reasonable price. You may want them to also take a look at the Summitar. It's lubricants are probably also dried out by now.

$350 with the lens is a good deal. A summitar alone goes for that or more. I paid $200 for my IIIc with the Elmar, but that was at least 10 years ago at a yard sale and the lady just wanted to get rid of it.

 

[KoNickon]

I paid $300 several years ago for a IIIc with a Summitar, case, and some vintage odds and ends, from the daughter of the original owner. It hadn't been used for many years, and as noted above, needed a lot of attention from Youxin Ye. The Summitar was in great shape and needed nothing, but I paid him around $200 for overhauling the body as I described above. So I'd urge you to see if he can come down some, like to $250.

 

[Dralowid]

IIIc supply exceeds demand.

 

[Roger Hicks]

IIIc supply exceeds demand.

No, I don't think so, or they wouldn't sell at all. Big supply and modest demand lowers prices, but there's still a demand.

Cheers,

R.

 

[JonWNC]

Hi again. Thanks for all the thoughts. I can certainly see a lot of valid viewpoints and many have expressed some thoughts and considerations I had not thought about.
Thanks for the tips on things to look at and check out while it's in hand.
I agree that the price would be better if it were lower, and if it turns out to be something I want to purchase, I will make an offer that will be less, hoping that the seller can see where I am coming from (many available online, needing servicing and possibly repairs, etc). Hopefully having cash in hand and being there in person will work its magic. I'd be happier if it were purchasable at $300 or less. At $350 I will still consider it, but something would really have to jump out and say "buy me and don't look back". I also have no problem walking away if it doesn't work out.
I checked out the YYe website for pricing, thanks for that information.

Jon

 

[Mr_Flibble]

I'm sorry, but $350 is not a steal.

I have to correct myself on this, I had a wartime IIIc in mind. The post-war ones (and pre-war III and IIIa) go for relatively less money.

But at about $150 for the Body and $200 for the lens I still consider this a good deal, provided that it doesn't have serious problems.

 

[goamules]

Jon, like you say, holding it in your hands is better to judge than looking at ebay pictures. So that is worth something. Also, ask if he has some accessories or even another lens. He may not have mentioned he has a viewfinder, or Leitz filters, or a bunch of stuff that adds value. I bought a iiic once that had a 90mm elmar and some other things that I sold right away, and it paid for the camera. I've also found most older sellers are used to dealing a little when it comes down to it. But some, usually the ones that are 100% or more above market, try to stick to their guns. I am polite but leave quickly if it's a rip-off.

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

The trouble is that you've no experience of these Leicas and we can tell you but I have my doubts as to how useful it will be. Although you ought to be able to spot scratches on the lens and other problems visually. But how to explain separation, fungus etc is beyond me.

Having said that, the IIIc is as tough as old boots; there's little to go wrong that can't be sorted out; the lens with it is lovely, imo; the 1949 models should have decent chrome again and coating on the lens; you get a one owner model with a history. But they do cost money to get right.

So I'd go for it but bear in mind that it will most likely need sorting out but once done will give years of pleasure. And, if you do, spend some time looking for and reading a IIIc manual before touching it...

Remember, we are all here to help.

Regards, David

PS And it has a lens cap, that's a bonus...

 

[Pioneer]

It all depends on your purpose for buying the camera. If you want to buy one, use it for a little while, then resell at a profit then you will want to try and buy your camera below market value, and ensure it needs little, or no, service.

On the other hand, if you would like to buy a very tough little camera, with tons of history behind it, that will likely outlast you once it has been properly serviced, then look for something that you like and plan on paying a fair price for it.

 

[Dez]

I think most of the advice I could come up with has already been given in this thread. For sure a CLA will be called for after all these years of having the lubricants turn to tar. In my experience, there were two specific problems associated with Leicas of this period. The first, flaking chrome, has already been discussed. The second is the tendency to have a very faint moving image in the RF. This requires replacement of the semi-silvered mirror behind the rewind-side window of the RF. Fortunately this is an extremely easy fix and the replacement part can be sourced for about $10.
I would consider $350 to be a decent, but not great price. There are lots of IIIc's around, and there will be considerable variation depending on the condition of the camera and lens. Unfortunately the one picture you have isn't really enough to determine that.

Cheers,
Dez

 

[rfaspen]

Well, $350 is not a steal, but if the Summitar is really nice, it would be around FMV (fair market value). If the lens has issues, I feel the price is too high. It is a post-war IIIc, as mentioned earlier. The Summitar should be coated (a good thing) and if its intact and clean, a really nice lens.

It may not be the case with your seller, but I do get tired of encountering people that think their stuff is "rare" and "collectible" and worth a ton of money; often several hundred percent above FMV. My strategy in those cases (when possible) is to make a reasonable offer and politely state that I am not attempting to "low ball" and that I have a good understanding of the market for these items. Most of these people will immediately decline, but make sure to mention that if they don't sell it for their asking price, to keep you in mind. And leave a phone number/email. So many times I receive a call in about a week or two. Once people see that they get no action on their very high asking price, they then understand you're a good deal after all.

Why this advice? Offer a fair price on that camera, depending on the condition and the realization that it *will* need some servicing. That's $100 minimum. Leave your phone number and the option for the seller to change his mind (should he decline your offer).

By the way, DAG Camera Repair has serviced all my Leicas (and Canon RF). Great work and I haven't seen him mentioned yet.

Now, did I see someone with a $150 IIIc with a Fed lens in an above post?