Help: Voigtlander Bessa R3m vs Bessa-T vs Leica CL and which 40mm lens?

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han.s0lo

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Hi all,
I am new to this forum and I am also looking at getting into rangefinder photography. I come from a dslr background (I own a D600) and I really think using a full manual film rangefinder could be a lot more enjoyable for what I want out of my photography. I do a lot of research on everything (I am one of those persons who spends most of my free time watching youtube videos or reading articles about camera gear) so I usually have a pretty solid idea of what I want. However, I am struggling finding opinions on a big question I have for myself right now: what starting kit to get for rangefinder photography?

I have a small budget and want a camera and lens for under $1,000 which is another reason I am going film (I will also be getting the kit used from eBay).

For the camera choice, I have narrowed down 3 options: The Voigtlander Bessa R3M, the Voigtlander Bessa-T, and the Leica CL.
I want to use a 40mm lens and so my choice is between the Voigtlander 40mm f/1.4 Nokton vs the Leica Summicron f/2 vs the Minolta Rokkor-M version.

I have found a good amount of opinions on the lenses, so this isn't as big of a concern. If I can get a good price on the Leica I will get that because I like its character, but I do have one important question: How does the Minolta Rokkor compare to the Summicron?

On to the cameras, I will share with you my thoughts on each choice:
Bessa R3M: pros: Most modern option, center- weighted metering, great frameline choices, 1:1 viewfinder for accurate focusing. cons: most expensive of the three choices which will force me to buy the Nokton which is my second choice lens.
Bessa-T: pros: Cheapest option (so I could likely get the 'Cron), large effective base length for accurate focusing. cons: external viewfinder (this is mostly a con because of cost factor - buying multiple viewfinders could make this more expensive than another option in the end, but I am not opposed to this style of shooting).
Leica CL: pros: easy to find these with the Leica Summicron for a good deal, Leica brand name :) cons: very small effective base length which makes me a little worried, and I have read a lot about the meters becoming faulty (I am not comfortable about external metering).

So what I am basically struggling with is wanting to jump on a good CL + Summicron deal, but the CL's shortcomings are pretty alarming. So the other option is potentially saving money with the Bessa-T otherwise just accepting Voigtlander and getting an R3M with a 1.4. I am also curious about the Mionlta version of the Summicron in comparison (seems pretty similar from what I can read, but I am mostly wondering about the mechanical quality differences if any).

Thanks, and sorry for the long post. I am very new to this but have done as much research to prepare myself and have decided to turn to your help!

-Ty
 
I'd choose the Bessa. The the 40mm is considered very good, and it's faster. Metering is by far better as well. Nicely center weighted, and better readout.

You should also consider the Minolta CLE.
 
I would definitely go for either the Minolta 40 or the Voigtlander, unless you can get a good deal on the Leica. The Leica tends to be overpriced due to its prestigious heritage. The Minolta is almost exactly the same lens, but with newer multicoating.

The 40mm framelines on the R3A might be hard to see if you wear glasses. I don't wear glasses, but when I had an R3A I found that even then, I could just barely see the frame when pressing my eye into the finder. Otherwise it's a great camera, and has the best meter by far.

The CL is a good choice if it's in working condition. The meter is the most likely part to fail and is hard to fix, but the shutter can be easily fixed by most technicians. I would not worry about the base length too much - it's more than enough for a 40mm F2.

The Bessa T is a quirkier option, but I think external viewfinders are only worth it with ultra wide lenses that don't rely on RF focusing. Switching between two finders becomes really old, really fast.
 
I briefly owned a Bessa R3A and a Leica CL and I disliked the view finder in both of them. I think the CL was a bit Dim and I wear glasses so I didnt get a long with the life size view of the Bessa R3A( I tried a Bessa R2A in the store and prefered the viewfinder). If it were me, I would try a Bessa T with a voightlander 35mm metal viewfinder and a 35mm lens of some kind. I have the VC viewfinder and it is great with glasses. But I never tried the Bessa T so really dont know.Also, give the R2A a try.
 
Thanks so far, and I appreciate the part about glasses because I do wear glasses, which complicates things further now.
 
Also, I specifically want to shoot at 40mm. There is a 40mm external viewfinder made by Voigtlander though, but it runs about $120-160
 
Since you wear glasses, I'd definitely take a look at the CLE then. It has 28mm framelines, so there's plenty of relief around the 40 frame. You can often find them packaged with the Minolta 40 for a fairly reasonable price.
 
I do realize that the Canonet giii isn't on your list but with an extremely good quality and fast 1.7 40mm lens it's an option to consider. They are very reasonably priced for a near mint model with a good working meter. And the money you save could be a start towards a leica down the road if you do get bitten hard by the love of the use of a rangefinder.
 
The Canonet Giii is interesting as a backup but I would only consider it as a backup. I have actually used a rangefinder for a small amount of time enough to know that I like the focusing and the mechanics, but I do not own one currently.
 
I wear glasses and shoot with the R3M. I prefer the Zeiss Ikon viewfinder but have no complaints with the R3M. For me the ability to keep the other eye open more than compensates.
 
I have the external CV 40 viewfinder, the Minolta 40/2.0 CLE version, and a Bessa T. I had a Bessa R3A. I bought the R3A to use w/ the 40 lens, and ultimately sold it. Why? Two reasons: (1) the 40 framelines on the R3A were hard to see (I wear glasses, and the framelines are on the outer edges of the vf); and (2) the R3A has a propensity for the rangefinder to go out of alignment. In every other respect it was a great camera, but my advice if you want to shoot a 40 lens and still be able to see outside the framelines is to look at the R2A (or R2M) and use the 35 framelines as a surrogate for 40.

I've shot a lot with the 40 and the Bessa T. It works great. The Bessa T is compact, and the external vf is very bright. The meter is excellent, and the rf focusing is very precise.

If I were in your situation, however, I'd also take a close look at a Leica CL, if I could find one in good condition. Condition is key.

My two cents.
 
An option that I see a lot here, is to buy an R2M(or other .7 finder camera) and use the 40mm lens with the 35mm frame line. People say it works great, you will be able to see all the frame.
 
I might be novice but I do get into the technical side of things, and I do know that viewfinder magnification is actually responsible for focusing accuracy as it is used in calculating the EBL. The EBL is calculated from multiplying the rangefinder base length by the viewfinder magnification. What you said is true about the Voigtlander since it has a 1x viewfinder, but you have to multiply the 32 (Actually 31.5mm) base length of the CL by its 0.6x magnification, resulting in an EBL of 18.9 for the Leica CL. So, the CL only has 51% of the focusing accuracy as the BessaR3**.
 
Get an M4-2 or cheap M2 and a M-Rokkor that is already modified (or modify by yourself, easy task) to bring up the 35mm frame lines.

The biggest problem of the Leica CL is not the meter (you can always guess or use a light-meter) but the aluminum coating of the beam-splitter in the RF path. Usually they are very deteriorated and you have a very low contrast RF patch, good in bright daylight only.

The CLE is better in this regard but if the electronic fails you have a paperweight. Also in case of the CLE any 40mm lens that has been modified (as most of them) to bring up the 35mm frame lines on a M will bring up the 28mm frame lines on the CLE.

The 40/2.0 M-Rokkor is quite similar to a 35/2.0 vs4 Summicron, the older M-Rokkor-QF shows a little bit lower contrast. The 40/2.0 Summicron-C is nicest for BW and sharpest in the center but not so in the corners.
 
Bessa R3

Bessa R3

I recently "rediscovered" my Bessa R3A. I started using it on automatic mode with a wide angle lens attached, which makes it basically like a point and shoot from F8. It isn't as solid as my Leica M3 but is convenient. I also have the Nokton 40mm single coat which is always surprisingly good, in a normal sort of way. And of course the viewfinder is amazing large and metering is always on, with easy batteries and theability to lock the shutter/ meter. I actually like the function that requires you to switch viewfinder lines.
 
I'm sure it isn't a huge difference, especially one I wouldn't notice considering
I haven't really used rangefinders (I wouldn't have any previous experience to judge the "so called" focusing inaccuracy off of). This is why the CL's base length doesn't steer me away nearly as much as the risk of having a unit that goes bad, considering my budget wouldn't much allow repair. With that in mind, however, right now after reading all the input (which has been GREAT, thanks every one!) I am leaning towards trying to find a good deal on a CL and Summicron because it is a way to get the lens for very cheap, and if the CL ends up going bad, I can always get a used Bessa-T for very cheap (I have seen them sold on ebay for under $250). If that deal doesn't work out, I might just get a Rokor-M and Bessa-T. This isn't a final decision, just a way I am starting to lean. Any thoughts? I really appreciate how quickly I have gotten all this feedback!
 
The Bessa T is a very versatile camera for not much money, but there's a reason why the combined rangefinder/viewfinder set-up won out. Having to focus through one (tiny) window and then frame using a separate viewfinder is slow.

Personally I found an R3A to be a fine companion for a 40mm Nokton, and I can't see an R3M to be any less suitable.
 
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