gdi
Veteran
Is it reasonable to set up for home film developing for scanning when there is no way I can flush ANY chemicals down the drain? I am on a septic with a well and can't risk it (plus, even i decided to my wife says never!)
What kind of volumes of waste am I looking at for 120 and 35mm B&W as well as color ? Is anyone successfully doing this currently?
Of course I will still have to find a place to dispose of waster properly, but I think I can make some arrangement.
Thanks!
What kind of volumes of waste am I looking at for 120 and 35mm B&W as well as color ? Is anyone successfully doing this currently?
Of course I will still have to find a place to dispose of waster properly, but I think I can make some arrangement.
Thanks!
markinlondon
Elmar user
The main problem is the fixer. You could ask a local photo lab if they'll take your waste. I only use a litre of working fixer per 20 rolls (Ilford Rapid Fixer).
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
I am on septic and well system and think that B&W development chems in moderate amounts will pose little harm. The metallic silver in the fixer is the problem (anti-microbal) and there are a variety of ways to remove it. Do a Google search. This does not hold for bleaches used in various B&W processes (e.g potassium ferricyanide, chlorine etc. or toners). I would not put those in my septic under any circumstances, particularly if there is drinking water nearby (I understand that chlorine + organics can = dioxins).
Color is right out for a septic system, IMHO. The chems are nasty. Don't use 'em. Or see if your local mini-lab will discard yours with theirs for a fee.
If you don't want to deal with silver removal yourself, you can save your fixer in 5 gallon paint containers (even when I was printing and developing every week, it still took me 6 months to generate 5 gallons of used fixer) and then find someone locally who is already performing this function to include your fixer with theirs. Colleges often are very responsible with their waste (I live near Middlebury College in Vermont in the USA. . .), commercial darkrooms often do silver recovery on their own fixer, or you can turn over your five gallon drum to your local hazerdous waste transfer station (although this seems excessive to me).
Seriously, the volumes of waste produced by a home darkroom have always seemed small to me. What is your wife's specific objection?
As to volumes of wast water - you will have to do your own math. Here is how it works out for me for eight rolls of 35mm or 120 film in a Jobo processor:
1 liter each developer, stop, fix, wash-aid (in theory the stop and fix can be re-used for up to 20 rolls of film, but in practice, I rarely develop that much at a go) = 4 liters total.
4 liters pre-wash; 4 liters post wash-aid; 1 liter photo-flo/end run.
So 13 liters of H2O and assorted chems per 8 rolls of film- certainly less than a load of laundry or the H20 used in 1 dish-washer cycle. Add another 8 liters of H2O to rinse/clean up at the end. You are still looking at about 5 gals total; far less than the typical American uses in a morning shower.
FWIW, my developer these days is a mix-it yourself developer made out of Ascorbic Acid (Viatmin C from health food store), Borax (a laundry additive) and Lye with a very, very small amount of phenidone as a developing agent (100 grams of phenidone will last me over five years). Patrick Gainer's recipe.
My stop bath is Heinz vinegar from Costco.
My fixer is Heinz vinegar plus amonimum thiosulfate (although you could use sodium thisosulphate instead).
Wash aid is mostly sodium sulphite (a food additive).
So all in all the stuff that I'd be pouring down my drain is stuff that won't do our septic buggies or ground water much harm. Depending on volume, that is. Now I am not developing as much (mucho digital these days). If I was suddenly developing 100 rolls a week, I'd look into silver recovery of some kind. But not for 100 rolls a year. I might be less cavalier about these water amounts if I lived in a desert or had a well with water supply problems.
Ben Marks
Ben Marks
Color is right out for a septic system, IMHO. The chems are nasty. Don't use 'em. Or see if your local mini-lab will discard yours with theirs for a fee.
If you don't want to deal with silver removal yourself, you can save your fixer in 5 gallon paint containers (even when I was printing and developing every week, it still took me 6 months to generate 5 gallons of used fixer) and then find someone locally who is already performing this function to include your fixer with theirs. Colleges often are very responsible with their waste (I live near Middlebury College in Vermont in the USA. . .), commercial darkrooms often do silver recovery on their own fixer, or you can turn over your five gallon drum to your local hazerdous waste transfer station (although this seems excessive to me).
Seriously, the volumes of waste produced by a home darkroom have always seemed small to me. What is your wife's specific objection?
As to volumes of wast water - you will have to do your own math. Here is how it works out for me for eight rolls of 35mm or 120 film in a Jobo processor:
1 liter each developer, stop, fix, wash-aid (in theory the stop and fix can be re-used for up to 20 rolls of film, but in practice, I rarely develop that much at a go) = 4 liters total.
4 liters pre-wash; 4 liters post wash-aid; 1 liter photo-flo/end run.
So 13 liters of H2O and assorted chems per 8 rolls of film- certainly less than a load of laundry or the H20 used in 1 dish-washer cycle. Add another 8 liters of H2O to rinse/clean up at the end. You are still looking at about 5 gals total; far less than the typical American uses in a morning shower.
FWIW, my developer these days is a mix-it yourself developer made out of Ascorbic Acid (Viatmin C from health food store), Borax (a laundry additive) and Lye with a very, very small amount of phenidone as a developing agent (100 grams of phenidone will last me over five years). Patrick Gainer's recipe.
My stop bath is Heinz vinegar from Costco.
My fixer is Heinz vinegar plus amonimum thiosulfate (although you could use sodium thisosulphate instead).
Wash aid is mostly sodium sulphite (a food additive).
So all in all the stuff that I'd be pouring down my drain is stuff that won't do our septic buggies or ground water much harm. Depending on volume, that is. Now I am not developing as much (mucho digital these days). If I was suddenly developing 100 rolls a week, I'd look into silver recovery of some kind. But not for 100 rolls a year. I might be less cavalier about these water amounts if I lived in a desert or had a well with water supply problems.
Ben Marks
Ben Marks
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Xmas
Veteran
If you use ZorkiKats dev it seems to be pain killer + lye. You might use a lot more lye to clean grease from your drains, than is in the dev.
If you use the Ilford washing scheme then you can 'tank' the used fixer and wash water and take the tank to the 'local' disposal scheme as dangerous waste. The Ag is solution is not good but you need to worry about where the silver battery cells are going as well. There used to be Hg cells, and they banned them for cause.
You have to store 7 x 290 mls per 35mm film, if you reuse fixer in a two bath process less waste and more permenance.
I'm using low wattage bulbs, a sweater (i.e. no heating) and an ecno car but the ice may melt, the conveyor may stall, and the fish dissappear on our life times just the same.
Noel
If you use the Ilford washing scheme then you can 'tank' the used fixer and wash water and take the tank to the 'local' disposal scheme as dangerous waste. The Ag is solution is not good but you need to worry about where the silver battery cells are going as well. There used to be Hg cells, and they banned them for cause.
You have to store 7 x 290 mls per 35mm film, if you reuse fixer in a two bath process less waste and more permenance.
I'm using low wattage bulbs, a sweater (i.e. no heating) and an ecno car but the ice may melt, the conveyor may stall, and the fish dissappear on our life times just the same.
Noel
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acall
Established
An alternative to drain disposal is household hazardous waste collections. Most municipalities now sponsor monthly household waste collection drop off points. I take photo chemicals, as well as a bunch of other "garage nasties" to ours. Most municipalities offer these programs at no charge (other than your taxes). Check with your local solid waste department.
cheers!
Alan
cheers!
Alan
charjohncarter
Veteran
Used fixer contains Silver salts, these are not allowed in the drains where I live. Plus they will rot your pipes. Recycling depot is the only answer here.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
The point is that the silver can be removed in a variety of ways from used fixer. the most common is to insert an electric silver recovery device. This looks like steel wool hooked up to electric wires. When switched on silver will plate out on the steel wool. This is how electroplating works (can't remember enough high school chemistry to remember whether it's the anode or cathode). When all the silver has plated out, you can dispose of the solution down any drain, whether or not you are on a septic or subject to California's hazardous waste laws. Obviously there are special considerations if your septic and well systems are close together, as mine are. However, there is no need to panic over disposal of fixer .
Xmas
Veteran
Benj
I though the silver would plate out in time given the position on the periodic table, but I'd not like doing this with my own septic tank and well, if you are going to the local burg and they can deal with weak Ag solutions then why not take along a large plastic container as well & pay the $? Peace of mind does not come cheaper, the local newts and frogs wont mount a picket operation, they will croak.
Noel
I though the silver would plate out in time given the position on the periodic table, but I'd not like doing this with my own septic tank and well, if you are going to the local burg and they can deal with weak Ag solutions then why not take along a large plastic container as well & pay the $? Peace of mind does not come cheaper, the local newts and frogs wont mount a picket operation, they will croak.
Noel
gdi
Veteran
Thanks - It sounds like most people are draining some of the wastes, but like I said, that's not an option for me, so I think I need to figure out a decent storage solution. I should be able to find somewhere to take the stuff.
Anyone know if there would be any issues with mixing all the wastes - B&W and Color, developer, stop, fixer, etc. into one waste container? I could just get a fairly large one and then transport it occasionally.
Thanks
Anyone know if there would be any issues with mixing all the wastes - B&W and Color, developer, stop, fixer, etc. into one waste container? I could just get a fairly large one and then transport it occasionally.
Thanks
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
Noel: I don't disagree with what you are saying, but I am not sure you read what I posted. I am not advocating pouring chemical sludge into the local wetland and waiting for the silver to plate out over time. I am advocating removing the silver from solution prior to disposal.
gdi: I don't think there is an issue with storing all of your waste in one container, but why bother with the stop bath? Just use household vinegar diluted 1:1 and pitch it when you are finished. Or better yet - forego a stop bath altogether and use a quart of water instead.
gdi: I don't think there is an issue with storing all of your waste in one container, but why bother with the stop bath? Just use household vinegar diluted 1:1 and pitch it when you are finished. Or better yet - forego a stop bath altogether and use a quart of water instead.
gb hill
Veteran
I work for a bulk lubricants distributer and Alan is right in telling you about the waste dist. sites. Find the nearest one that collects chemical waste and take it there. Also ask about the proper type of container to put it in. DON'T by any means use milk jugs. These people can be a very pain in the butt to deal with because of Gov. breathing down their necks. On most part are nice to deal with, Just may have some crazy rules to put up with.
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acall
Established
There is no problem with mixing all the B&W photochemical wastes together. I use a 5 gallon jug for mine, then take it to the household hazardous waste collection. I have never dealt with the color chemicals, but if they are similar to the B&W ones, there shouldn't be any compatibility issues. The household hazardous waste companies are simply going to mix this together with other solvents and send it to an incinerator.
My full time job is managing hazardous waste for an EPA Research and Development lab. We don't allow any photo chemicals to go down the drain. Other than used fixer, it is perfectly legal to drain dispose most of the other chemicals, but I wouldn't want those things perking up in my well.
Alan
My full time job is managing hazardous waste for an EPA Research and Development lab. We don't allow any photo chemicals to go down the drain. Other than used fixer, it is perfectly legal to drain dispose most of the other chemicals, but I wouldn't want those things perking up in my well.
Alan
markinlondon
Elmar user
In the UK we don't have these restrictions but then the water I drink has allegedly been through eight pairs of kidneys before it gets to me 
. The Thames must be clean, we keep finding dead otters in it
. The Thames must be clean, we keep finding dead otters in it Benjamin Marks
Veteran
Oh, the water you drink has been through considerably more kidneys than that! They haven't made any more fresh water since before the time of the dinosaurs. MMMmmm apatosaurus kidneys.
Ben Marks
Ben Marks
Bob Helmond
Member
If you have never done your own darkroom work, by all means and at any cost of effluent disposal effort DO IT. The learning process will be well worth it.
An interesting recovery scheme for rinse water is to include a several-foot-long length of copper tubing that will electrolytically (in a very passive way) withdraw silver from the slightly acidic water containing the dissolved silver. When the drain backs up, remove the copper and take it to a smelter for recovery and pocket a chunk of change for your effort. Be sure to use the thick-walled copper or the acid will eat pinholes in the tubing.
Ever drop a solid copper penny in your fixer tray?
As Director of Photographic Facilities at a major art school when the Hunt brothers manipulated the price of silver through the roof (c.1980 or so), I designed a successful system to reclaim silver from the huge amounts of fixer generated by a 50-enlarger darkroom operating 13 hours a day six days a week. An added bonus was the recycling of the exhausted solution by replenishment of key chemical components into a useable fixer (until the sulfides built up too much, and it became necessary to discard.)
An interesting recovery scheme for rinse water is to include a several-foot-long length of copper tubing that will electrolytically (in a very passive way) withdraw silver from the slightly acidic water containing the dissolved silver. When the drain backs up, remove the copper and take it to a smelter for recovery and pocket a chunk of change for your effort. Be sure to use the thick-walled copper or the acid will eat pinholes in the tubing.
Ever drop a solid copper penny in your fixer tray?
As Director of Photographic Facilities at a major art school when the Hunt brothers manipulated the price of silver through the roof (c.1980 or so), I designed a successful system to reclaim silver from the huge amounts of fixer generated by a 50-enlarger darkroom operating 13 hours a day six days a week. An added bonus was the recycling of the exhausted solution by replenishment of key chemical components into a useable fixer (until the sulfides built up too much, and it became necessary to discard.)
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Nachkebia
Well-known
I can not drain chemicals? my lord ops
ops