How many frames are lost during loading?

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redsky

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This is a question I always had when trying to maximize the number of frames in a roll, and never managed to measure precisely. The question has become relevant again as I just accidentally opened my camera with a roll in:

Q: In a camera (say a Leica M) with a roll loaded, what is the distance between the exit of the canister and the end of the frame window? In other words, how many frames I need to move forward once I close the camera, so the next frame will not have been exposed yet? Anybody has measured?
 
I load the camera, close the cover, wind it until the counter gets to 1, making sure my rewind knob is turning. I always get at least 36, sometimes 37 frames.
 
On some cameras, you can catch the film leader in the sprocket and close the door immediately. Take up slack in the rewind knob and watch to see it turns when you wind on. You'd still have to fire off a couple frames but on the other hand, I've seen people shoot three blanks before closing the door and then another two or three before the frame counter shows 1. That's a lot of film going unproductive.

Obviously, if your camera's takeup sprocket is sketchy (or its a new camera you're unsure of), you might want to wind a frame or two before closing the door, just to be sure its caught.
 
Well, the question is not how many frames in a roll. That depends on the roll as well. It's more specifically about the film wasted, i.e., how many frames you need to advance until you get fresh film in the frame window.

Based on this image (I think it's a minox, so I am aware this is as small as it gets)
lomo-lc-wide-back-film-loaded.jpg


looks like there are 8/9 sprocket holes exposed (until the end of the window), that means we need to advance 8 sprockets, so the film that is now on the edge, inside the canister, will be at the end of the frame window. 8 sprockets = 1 frame. Is my reasoning faulty?

Obviously a wider camera may need a bit more, but certainly no more than 2.
 
I get 39 with my Leica M3. I advance 1/3 of a frame, insert film, advance the rest of the way, fire.

Next frame is "for real".
 
I load my cameras in a dark room and get 40 shots per frame.

(not really)

I have noticed that Fuji 200 36 exp is shorter than Kodak Portra 400 36 exp.
With the Fuji I only get 20 exp per roll in my TX-2, with Portra I get 21 exp. The TX-2 /Xpan is one of those cameras that fully winds the film out when you load it, then winds it back in when you shoot. The idea is if you accidentally open the back you do not ruin images that you have taken.
 
To recap the OP question... If you're shooting a roll and accidentally open the back mid-roll, how many frames do you lose?

I would close the back and advance two frames (maybe three to be sure, as suggested in post#2) to continue shooting. Then worry how much film on the take-up spool might be ruined... :( You will certainly lose the current frame and the one shot just prior, the rest is luck.
 
Well, I don't think I really care. Whither or not I can get an extra frame or two make no difference to me. Go make photographs. - jim
 
All my pictures got affected when I accidentally opened the back of my Leica. Thought the film got stuck when I apparently was shooting a 24 frame roll. I think all of the remaining film which hadn't been exposed got all blown.

SI_20161228_134042.jpg
 
I think I advance 1 time and then start shooting on the second frame or something like that.

In any case, I almost always get more than 36 frames our of a roll.

If you want to maximize your roll, you need to load the film in the dark and advance once I suppose.
 
Hi,

This is a vague question so the answer's vague and is 2 or 3 or else RTFM and you might find you have no say in it.

Sorry about that but some things in life are like that...

Regards, David
 
Depending how tight your loading technique is from a standard 135-36 film: 35 till 39 negatives or positives. So your loss is one to four. It can be zero if you are loading in the darkroom.
 
For 120 or 220 film in some medium format cameras (e.g., some Zeiss Ikonta folders), the film must be advanced until the counter indicates 1 or until it can be advanced no further due to a locking mechanism that is released when you trip the shutter. If on initial loading the film is not advanced to this point, film transport is affected and proper spacing between negatives is lost. Then you get overlapping frames compressed into only part of the role, a most frustrating problem.
Proper film transport in these cameras is based on the thickness of the film on the take-up spool. Even when done properly, it can be a problem with "newer" films that are thinner, but there is a work-around to correct the problem.
I haven't heard of this kind of problem in 35mm film cameras.
 
Honestly? Every 35mm camera I have used – Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Minolta, Olympus, Leica etc – I have got 39 frames from a 36 exposure roll.

Admittedly, some are easier to load than others. The Minolta CLE and Pentax SL were a doddle, some Leica screw bodies not so.

It’s just a matter of learning their quirks.
 
redsky said:
This is a question I always had when trying to maximize the number of frames in a roll, and never managed to measure precisely. The question has become relevant again as I just accidentally opened my camera with a roll in:

Q: In a camera (say a Leica M) with a roll loaded, what is the distance between the exit of the canister and the end of the frame window? In other words, how many frames I need to move forward once I close the camera, so the next frame will not have been exposed yet? Anybody has measured?
Click to expand...

Okay, since you frame it in the context of the camera back was opened with film already loaded and shot; when you close the camera, you should advance two frames before shooting for real again.

The camera you show in your later post is possibly one of the smallest chambered cameras of recent vintage (the Rollei 35 series also comes to mind, and some older models such as the Paxette and Voigtlander Vito B had small chambers too), but you still have more than a complete frame out of the canister before closing the back.

You can kind of figure out how much film any camera has out of the canister by eyeballing it before closing the back, and then figure how much you will lose on the first frame if you just wind on once instead of twice. Then you can place the first image more within the right side of the finder (On this particular camera. Some others load the film from the right, so you would then use the left side of the finder) since the light struck portion will be on the frame left (after inverting the image back to normal).

I once managed 40.8 frames on a particular camera that I haven't used in ages, so I couldn't tell you what it was. But that 0.8 frame had plenty of useful image, which I wound up cropping to a square.

PF
 
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