Avotius
Some guy
Ok so we all know why we are here and endanger our social relationships with other people over these leica things but I just cant take it anymore!!! Leica prices are high, there is no doubting that and there are numerous subjects about this everywhere. Well over here on my side of the planet over the last two months leica prices have gone up twice. When the m8 arrived here it was about $5000 dollars, yeah a little more then in the states but for here thats not all that strange. Well now prices at all the dealers have gone up to $6550 dollars. We all saw and grumbled about the noctilux price increase which has hit here, but at the same time every lens has gone up in price by about 2-300 dollars twice in a mater of a quarter of a year.
Now with these crazy price increases there is no way in hell I would ever consider buying a new lens from them, not with a used market where finding what you want is a mater of waiting for a few days for it to show up.
Many of the asian photo sites and forums are now on fire at leica about continuously raising prices over here and im just wondering if leica is trying to end them selfs or what....
now I know someone is going to chime in on the "specialty camera maker" "specialty use" "specialty whatever..." but give me a break, its the same thing with sony, I got lots of sony stuff, its all works and had what I wanted, but I knew I was paying a small premium for the name when I bought it, but leica has to be nuts.
Next thing you know we will have the name leica next to gucci and prada as models parade themselfs around in the finest in namery...such a pity for great USER cameras.
Now with these crazy price increases there is no way in hell I would ever consider buying a new lens from them, not with a used market where finding what you want is a mater of waiting for a few days for it to show up.
Many of the asian photo sites and forums are now on fire at leica about continuously raising prices over here and im just wondering if leica is trying to end them selfs or what....
now I know someone is going to chime in on the "specialty camera maker" "specialty use" "specialty whatever..." but give me a break, its the same thing with sony, I got lots of sony stuff, its all works and had what I wanted, but I knew I was paying a small premium for the name when I bought it, but leica has to be nuts.
Next thing you know we will have the name leica next to gucci and prada as models parade themselfs around in the finest in namery...such a pity for great USER cameras.
Xmas
Veteran
Hey worse if you were in USA, the DM going in one direction the $ the other...
If leica sales volume is ok the price to too low, buy CV wont make much difference unless we all did. If Ch gets more affluent the price will harden even more as they soak up production. Leicia may have to move production to Ch???
Noel
If leica sales volume is ok the price to too low, buy CV wont make much difference unless we all did. If Ch gets more affluent the price will harden even more as they soak up production. Leicia may have to move production to Ch???
Noel
Ben Z
Veteran
It isn't just in China. Here in the USA Leica prices have risen drasticly over the last few years. Frankly, the reason(s) don't mean much to me, because the end result is I'm pretty much priced out of their market. Not that I don't have the money, just that a $3500 MP has the same functionality now as it did when it cost $2500. A 2007 automobile that costs 30% more than the same model 2003 probably has at least some feature improvements. So for me it's a matter of sensibilities and priorities. For a long time the used market lagged behind the new market so great bargains were to be found and fortunately I picked up a few things on the way. Since the M8 has showed folks Leica isn't at a dead-end, the prices of used lenses has begun to rapidly catch up. Again, we can discuss all the political, philosophical or economic reasons why Leica prices have shot up at well past the inflation rate, but in the end you either feel it's worth paying for or not. If enough opt for "not", then perhaps (but not likely) the demand/supply might force prices down, or a rebate. As I said, I'm in the US, and there are tons of used Leicas, and Solms aggressively supplies Leica USA and them in turn supplies the many dealers. In other countries where there are only a few dealers, and very little used equipment, and/or buying from overseas involves huge taxes, that would no doubt add to the problem.
paragon
Established
£eica - it's always been the same
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
How many more Leica price increases will be too many? They're not even close to that point yet!
Mostly, the relatively few private individuals who actually buy Leicas are obscenely rich anyway, and those people are just getting richer at an accelerating rate. In case you missed the news item I read the other day, CEOs at America's largest companies now collect an average salary of $17.5 million per year, and plan to give themselves pay increases averaging 35% this year.
(And don't get all self-righteous if you're a pinko -- I read your hero, Michael Moore, charges a speaking fee of $160,000 per engagement... but it's probably going up now that he's won that Prix de Films Bashing America award at Cannes again...)
So compared to the other little luxuries with which they like to cosset themselves -- such as, say, a new Boeing 747-8 VIP private jet -- a Leica is pretty much a throwaway item for its target consumers.
Photographers? Pfft... who needs those nasty little low-life penny pinchers in one's customer base?
Mostly, the relatively few private individuals who actually buy Leicas are obscenely rich anyway, and those people are just getting richer at an accelerating rate. In case you missed the news item I read the other day, CEOs at America's largest companies now collect an average salary of $17.5 million per year, and plan to give themselves pay increases averaging 35% this year.
(And don't get all self-righteous if you're a pinko -- I read your hero, Michael Moore, charges a speaking fee of $160,000 per engagement... but it's probably going up now that he's won that Prix de Films Bashing America award at Cannes again...)
So compared to the other little luxuries with which they like to cosset themselves -- such as, say, a new Boeing 747-8 VIP private jet -- a Leica is pretty much a throwaway item for its target consumers.
Photographers? Pfft... who needs those nasty little low-life penny pinchers in one's customer base?
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
endustry said:
Well said.
Unfortunately for us working people, when dealing with the richer class these incremental increases have little if any effect since they have a greater amount of disposable funds, while the rest of us feel like we were hit by a train.
I experienced this same thing in the early 1990's when I started shooting Leica and was barely able to afford a user M5 and 35 Cron V3. No second lenses and no VC backups. Info was scarce without the web or I might have searched out Canon alternatives.
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
jlw said:
You got it down man.
Micheal Moore? He is largely blouted AFAIC.
Paul
UC Berkeley
Paul T.
Veteran
A lot of these price increases are simply down to the poor performance of the dollar n the exchange markets. And the Chinese government are doing their best to keep it afloat.
Having been in the doldrums for so long, the German economy is recovering, which will have implications for the Euro... so sadly I can only see prices going up. Unless they decide to move production from Portugal to Piedmont...
Having been in the doldrums for so long, the German economy is recovering, which will have implications for the Euro... so sadly I can only see prices going up. Unless they decide to move production from Portugal to Piedmont...
x-ray
Veteran
Let's put this into perspective. In 1968 I bought my first Leica gear that consisted of a 21 SA 3.4, 35 1.4, 50 f2 summicron v1, 65 elmar and mount, viso II, 90 Elmarit and 135 Hektor, 2 M2's and a M3. I remember some of the prices, the 21 used was $250, 35 summilux v1 new was $333, I think the 50 summicron was $200-225 used and don't remember the other lenses but the M2's were $250 each. Look at an inflation calculator and see hat this would be today and prices have basically tracked with inflation. Oh yes, I was making a whopping $14,000 a year in 1969-70 as a young freelance PJ while in college. My college tuition at the university of tennessee was roughly $130 / quarter. Let's not forget i bought a used 65 plymouth in 1968 that has 35,000 miles and paid $250 dollars. Go to the calculator and check it out in todays dollars. You'll be shocked!
Avotius, the image that i swapped to you, student protest 1969, was sold to Esquire Magazine in 1970 and they paid $300 to use it. Look at what they pay for that kind of image and you'll see it tracks with inflation.
Avotius, the image that i swapped to you, student protest 1969, was sold to Esquire Magazine in 1970 and they paid $300 to use it. Look at what they pay for that kind of image and you'll see it tracks with inflation.
Last edited:
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
The DM isn't going anywhere soon... We're not Brits, aft€r allXmas said:
Leicame
-
I'm from Toronto,Canada and was interested in a Leica MP and a 50 1.4 Summiilux,so i find a local dealer and there are no products whatsoever,everything is special order! well 4k + another $3700 for the lens without seeing the equipment is out of the question,i'll go and purchase myself a olympus E510 when they're available,my R4 from new didn't work properly and paled in compqarison to my Nikon F3 in quality, i always got the runaround about it when in for repair,,,hope Leica survives but i doubt it.
thomasw_
Well-known
wordpress said:
I concur with most of this statement.
Olsen
Well-known
This is partly a currency problem, but not only.
It is ironical that it is a chinese that is complaining about the effect of the high Euro to the Yang. If and when the chinese government decides to have the Yang floating freely on the global currency exchange market it will rize dramatically. Possibly as much as 15%. The dollar would follow. Somewhat.
As you see: The subsidizing of chinese export, that the politically nominated Yang represents, not only threatens US employees, but also european,- like the employees of Leica in Solms.
So, æhum, you must excuse our dry throats, Avotius.
There is few things I agree with pres. George Bush with. Only one thing, actually. We share the opinion that; that the chinese government must be urged to stop regulating the Yang!
That said, Leica optics will always be 'expensive'. - Not only for you chinese and americans, but for us europeans,- not the least us from Norway, arguably the richest country in the world - add our 25% sales tax to the Leica net prices and you will understand that also norwegians find Leica expensive. Very expensive! Norway is a dull market for Leicas. Has been, since german soldiers traded Leica IIIs for a kilo of butter before going home 60 years ago.
The second reason that Leica is expensive is the small volume they represents compared to, say, Canon. I bought a Canon EF 16-35 mm 2,8L II at the same time as buying the M8 and the Tri Elmarit. The Leica lense is slightly better optically,- but only marginaly, while the Canon lense is far more advanced (wider, AF, databusses etc.) and larger. The Canon lense costs 1/3 of the Leica lense. The explanation is the share volume of produced Canon lenses. Possibly 10 to 20 fold the Leica equaliant. Divide R & D costs on that.
It is ironical that it is a chinese that is complaining about the effect of the high Euro to the Yang. If and when the chinese government decides to have the Yang floating freely on the global currency exchange market it will rize dramatically. Possibly as much as 15%. The dollar would follow. Somewhat.
As you see: The subsidizing of chinese export, that the politically nominated Yang represents, not only threatens US employees, but also european,- like the employees of Leica in Solms.
So, æhum, you must excuse our dry throats, Avotius.
There is few things I agree with pres. George Bush with. Only one thing, actually. We share the opinion that; that the chinese government must be urged to stop regulating the Yang!
That said, Leica optics will always be 'expensive'. - Not only for you chinese and americans, but for us europeans,- not the least us from Norway, arguably the richest country in the world - add our 25% sales tax to the Leica net prices and you will understand that also norwegians find Leica expensive. Very expensive! Norway is a dull market for Leicas. Has been, since german soldiers traded Leica IIIs for a kilo of butter before going home 60 years ago.
The second reason that Leica is expensive is the small volume they represents compared to, say, Canon. I bought a Canon EF 16-35 mm 2,8L II at the same time as buying the M8 and the Tri Elmarit. The Leica lense is slightly better optically,- but only marginaly, while the Canon lense is far more advanced (wider, AF, databusses etc.) and larger. The Canon lense costs 1/3 of the Leica lense. The explanation is the share volume of produced Canon lenses. Possibly 10 to 20 fold the Leica equaliant. Divide R & D costs on that.
Last edited:
grduprey
Gene
Actually, the DM isn't going anywhere period. It does not exist anymore. It's the Euro these days.
peter_n
Veteran
Correct. Actually there is no "point". Infinite price inelasticity is in effect it seems.jlw said:
Yes I only wish...jlw said:
Avotius
Some guy
Ok I can agree with everything you said up there everyone, including you Don, you make you point with the ususal eloquence.
But let me ask everyone a question.
With inflation and all that and rising prices...you people out there making say....4500 dollars a month two months ago, are you making 6000 a month now? Of course not, its sort of the same here, the average salary here 15 years ago was about 15 yuan a month in the city, now its about 3-4000. Back in the day here a ice cream bar cost .5 jiao or half a yuan, today it costs the same, but prices for other things has changed accordingly unlike in some places.
Global currency rates aside the fact is that the price has gone up, your money is not worth more then it was before the price went up, so its still more expensive, and even if you money is worth more then it was a few months ago the jump is not so much to cover a 1700 dollar price increase is it?
But let me ask everyone a question.
With inflation and all that and rising prices...you people out there making say....4500 dollars a month two months ago, are you making 6000 a month now? Of course not, its sort of the same here, the average salary here 15 years ago was about 15 yuan a month in the city, now its about 3-4000. Back in the day here a ice cream bar cost .5 jiao or half a yuan, today it costs the same, but prices for other things has changed accordingly unlike in some places.
Global currency rates aside the fact is that the price has gone up, your money is not worth more then it was before the price went up, so its still more expensive, and even if you money is worth more then it was a few months ago the jump is not so much to cover a 1700 dollar price increase is it?
Last edited:
Photar
Established
The good thing is that you do not need so much gear for rangefinder photography. There are no super-tele lenses, macro lenses etc etc. Personally, I already have what I want. Thus, I can be very relaxed about price increases. Higher film prices would be much more worrying for me ...
x-ray
Veteran
I think most of us have more disposable income today than we did 40 years ago. Part is due to cheaper prices, relatively speaking, on goods like TV's and such (items made in China). My parents first B&W TV in the 50's cost around $300 in 1950's dollars. Today a comperable color TV can be bought for $79. Most of us that are that old can look back and say we're making more disposable money today and overall making more money in general. My income in 1968-69 was $14,000 per year. That in todays dollars was almost $80,000. Taking this figure today I'm making several times that and working a couple of days a week in the commercial now and spending more time in the documentary which hasn't started to generate significant revenue yet. The point is many of us are making more money to spend on gear and other toys. While the prices have gone up most of the increase is just reflecting inflation.
40oz
...
as long as demand exceeds supply, the price will be out of reach for most. While we all would like a new Leica MP to cost the same as a new haircut, that is not realistic. It's part of the economic system the world over - a company can only afford to produce so many units, and if there are far more buyers than stock, you simply charge what you can to move it all. This means there will always be those who cannot afford the item. How would that situation be any more pleasant if you could afford it but still couldn't get one because they were all sold before ever reaching China?
Leica will never make as many M models as there are people who would like one. And they will never be able to afford to sell a brand new Leica like an MP or M7 at a price that makes it affordable to the majority. It's just not economically possible, and none of us would want the camera if the quality were downgraded enough to make it feasible.
I don't understand why these things upset people. It's a luxury item. Nobody has an inborn right to them, and no company has a moral obligation to give away their products, any more than a worker has any moral obligation to forgo payment for their labor. Any price adjustment is merely a response to the market, either due to increased labor or materials cost, or due to increased demand. Buy a used one if you want a Leica that you can afford, make it a priority to save your money for a camera instead of a house, or enjoy life with the luxuries within reach. It's not like anyone is denied basic happiness because of the price of a Leica body or lens.
Leica will never make as many M models as there are people who would like one. And they will never be able to afford to sell a brand new Leica like an MP or M7 at a price that makes it affordable to the majority. It's just not economically possible, and none of us would want the camera if the quality were downgraded enough to make it feasible.
I don't understand why these things upset people. It's a luxury item. Nobody has an inborn right to them, and no company has a moral obligation to give away their products, any more than a worker has any moral obligation to forgo payment for their labor. Any price adjustment is merely a response to the market, either due to increased labor or materials cost, or due to increased demand. Buy a used one if you want a Leica that you can afford, make it a priority to save your money for a camera instead of a house, or enjoy life with the luxuries within reach. It's not like anyone is denied basic happiness because of the price of a Leica body or lens.
ferider
Veteran
Agree with you, 40oz. It's really very simple:
Why do they increase prices ?
Because they can.
Price and value are different.
And ... threads like this one will increase value in the eye of the average consumer.
Because they show desire.
Roland.
Why do they increase prices ?
Because they can.
Price and value are different.
And ... threads like this one will increase value in the eye of the average consumer.
Because they show desire.
Roland.