naos
23 Skidoo
I can be happy with my M8 for the next 20 years (would the electronics last that long?).
Does anyone else feel the same way?
Does anyone else feel the same way?
bmattock
Veteran
Not even close. Digital cameras are in their infancy, not even close to a mature technology, and we're in for some of the most interesting times in photography in the next 10 to 20 years. It's going to be a rocket sled on rails. I'm looking forward to it very much.
naos
23 Skidoo
I guess it dosn't take much to make me happy. I only need a simple digital camera that conforms to my shooting style and makes excellent raw files. I don't need something that can shoot a million frames per sec., and has all the bells and whistles. An M8 is a camera I could use for life!
Joe Mondello
Resu Deretsiger
Nah, I'll always want more. ;-)
Good as the M8 is, it certainly can be improved upon!
Good as the M8 is, it certainly can be improved upon!
ISO
Established
For me it is a lot about the "feel". I just like to have something solid in my hands when I take a picture. Full-metal or metal-leather body. Full manual settings. Great glass. And please do not forget the excellent viewfinder. If you have time, add a XP2 sensor. Thanks.
...If this already exists in the M8, I want it smaller and cheaper.Leica CL(d), could be the one. For a fixed lens version I would be happy with a Leica CM(d) or Olympus RC(d). Zoom as option.
But when I really think about it, I can stick with film....
...If this already exists in the M8, I want it smaller and cheaper.Leica CL(d), could be the one. For a fixed lens version I would be happy with a Leica CM(d) or Olympus RC(d). Zoom as option.
But when I really think about it, I can stick with film....
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bmattock
Veteran
Old thinking, clean out your brains!
There will be more, much more, to digital cameras than just more. More megapixels, more storage, longer lenses, faster recording, and etc. Those are just improvements on what we already have - which is great, but it is just saying "Cameras will get better and faster and perhaps cheaper" like computers have.
But we are on the cusp of something wonderful. Cameras are about to start doing things that could not be done with any kind of camera in the past. Photography will be stood on its head. This will be revolutionary, not just evolutionary.
A bunch of things in the pipeline, hope they come to fruition:
* Liquid lens. Imagine a lens that is deformed into various shapes by an electrical charge. It changes to whatever shape is required for the optical characteristics you want. Want a pre-war 'cron? There's a button to emulate that optical formula. How about a post-war 'Lux? Same thing. Zoom? How about from ultra-wide to ultra-long, and all at the same aperture? How about nearly instantly, without any motors whirring or mechanical things moving about? What about a 'cron with some of the characteristics of a lens baby as well? Just for fun, how about some of the optical experiments in camera lenses that never got built because human mechanical engineering couldn't build them to those tolerances? Differential focus that leaves large format movements in the dust?
Now, for the sensor. Not just high ISO or low ISO, but a single sensor that can move smoothly between say 50 ISO and 10K ISO, bringing with it things you never saw before, like available light photos with real depth of field, because you can shoot in near darkness at f/16. But that's just evolutionary technology. For revolutionary, how about a single sensor that can have different sensitivities on the same surface for the same photo? HDR like you never saw it. Multiple exposures from the same photo capture, not just PS manipulation after the fact. Real-time IR, UV, and visible light captures, all at once, from the same shutter press, and without special lens filters?
How about some older technology that never worked that well dredged up and fixed? Like Canon's eye motion technology, the camera focusses where we move our eye in the frame. Shutter actuation upon sensing the muscle firing for the trigger finger.
How about an LCD screen that can display a histogram in real time prior to making the shot, and an LCD that can be removed and worn on various parts of the body, connected wirelessly but still live and in realtime? A flip-down widget over the eye that allows you to see what the camera sees for over-the-head shots so you can take photos in crowds.
Intelligent color recognition that allows you to do B&W conversion and group colors as you wish them to be represented in gray tones, not just according to their luminance, no need for conversion or color filters.
Portraits that recognize what should be sharp and what should not be sharp on human skin, make allowances (intelligently and with input from the photographer) for variations in skin town, blemishes, and so on.
Photos that are automatically tagged with geo tags and time/date stamps that will allow (if you permit it) future historians to know with certainty what happened and when at different points in history.
Cameras that cooperate with news services (under the control of the photographer) to feed still and video directly into news services to cover news events as they happen - full credit and payment given of course. If you happen to be at an event, and you take photos and you have elected to be part of the group that can feed data into the news net stream, an editor can select one or more of your photos as they come streaming in, use them as if you were a photojournalist, give you credit/copyright, and issue micropayments into your paypal account on the spot - in real time. Go to a lot of parades - make a couple of bucks. Happen to be where there is a bad wreck? Get a byline and a buck or two performing a public service. Another Rodney King? With dozens of citizen journalists covering from every available angle, the truth will soon be known - could be bad cops, could be bad guy - but more cameras are better, right?
I'm telling you, digital cameras are about to go off in directions we never thought of, because there was no way to do it with film. NOT KNOCKING FILM.
But no, the M8 would not satisfy me. I want it all.
Bring on the eschaton, baby.
There will be more, much more, to digital cameras than just more. More megapixels, more storage, longer lenses, faster recording, and etc. Those are just improvements on what we already have - which is great, but it is just saying "Cameras will get better and faster and perhaps cheaper" like computers have.
But we are on the cusp of something wonderful. Cameras are about to start doing things that could not be done with any kind of camera in the past. Photography will be stood on its head. This will be revolutionary, not just evolutionary.
A bunch of things in the pipeline, hope they come to fruition:
* Liquid lens. Imagine a lens that is deformed into various shapes by an electrical charge. It changes to whatever shape is required for the optical characteristics you want. Want a pre-war 'cron? There's a button to emulate that optical formula. How about a post-war 'Lux? Same thing. Zoom? How about from ultra-wide to ultra-long, and all at the same aperture? How about nearly instantly, without any motors whirring or mechanical things moving about? What about a 'cron with some of the characteristics of a lens baby as well? Just for fun, how about some of the optical experiments in camera lenses that never got built because human mechanical engineering couldn't build them to those tolerances? Differential focus that leaves large format movements in the dust?
Now, for the sensor. Not just high ISO or low ISO, but a single sensor that can move smoothly between say 50 ISO and 10K ISO, bringing with it things you never saw before, like available light photos with real depth of field, because you can shoot in near darkness at f/16. But that's just evolutionary technology. For revolutionary, how about a single sensor that can have different sensitivities on the same surface for the same photo? HDR like you never saw it. Multiple exposures from the same photo capture, not just PS manipulation after the fact. Real-time IR, UV, and visible light captures, all at once, from the same shutter press, and without special lens filters?
How about some older technology that never worked that well dredged up and fixed? Like Canon's eye motion technology, the camera focusses where we move our eye in the frame. Shutter actuation upon sensing the muscle firing for the trigger finger.
How about an LCD screen that can display a histogram in real time prior to making the shot, and an LCD that can be removed and worn on various parts of the body, connected wirelessly but still live and in realtime? A flip-down widget over the eye that allows you to see what the camera sees for over-the-head shots so you can take photos in crowds.
Intelligent color recognition that allows you to do B&W conversion and group colors as you wish them to be represented in gray tones, not just according to their luminance, no need for conversion or color filters.
Portraits that recognize what should be sharp and what should not be sharp on human skin, make allowances (intelligently and with input from the photographer) for variations in skin town, blemishes, and so on.
Photos that are automatically tagged with geo tags and time/date stamps that will allow (if you permit it) future historians to know with certainty what happened and when at different points in history.
Cameras that cooperate with news services (under the control of the photographer) to feed still and video directly into news services to cover news events as they happen - full credit and payment given of course. If you happen to be at an event, and you take photos and you have elected to be part of the group that can feed data into the news net stream, an editor can select one or more of your photos as they come streaming in, use them as if you were a photojournalist, give you credit/copyright, and issue micropayments into your paypal account on the spot - in real time. Go to a lot of parades - make a couple of bucks. Happen to be where there is a bad wreck? Get a byline and a buck or two performing a public service. Another Rodney King? With dozens of citizen journalists covering from every available angle, the truth will soon be known - could be bad cops, could be bad guy - but more cameras are better, right?
I'm telling you, digital cameras are about to go off in directions we never thought of, because there was no way to do it with film. NOT KNOCKING FILM.
But no, the M8 would not satisfy me. I want it all.
Bring on the eschaton, baby.
ISO
Established
...so what. Do you think the pictures will be better than. You will have more options on your tool and can maybe, just maybe discover new areas of light. But more or less everthing can be photographed today. So the good picture has to do with something else. Sorry (not personal!!!).
What you discribe about the speed of transfer, is very interesting indeed.
What you discribe about the speed of transfer, is very interesting indeed.
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jdos2
Well-known
Congrats on your ability to be happy with a camera for 20 years!
I won't be. I trade up and down all the time. M8? Eh. It's okay. 5D? It was okay. MP? it was okay. Mamiya Universal? That's a good camera, worthy of staying in the bag for all these years.
Love your perspective, too, Bill. These are exciting times!
I won't be. I trade up and down all the time. M8? Eh. It's okay. 5D? It was okay. MP? it was okay. Mamiya Universal? That's a good camera, worthy of staying in the bag for all these years.
Love your perspective, too, Bill. These are exciting times!
rvaubel
Well-known
Bmattocks
Whoooh Nelly!! Your talking about my next Canon, not my next Leica! What you are talkiing about is all very fine but not for the Leica. A revolution about every half century is all Leica is good for. And they have just had there revolution for the first half of the 21st century.
Leica needs to refine the M8 to smooth out some of the wrinkles, especially the IR filter thing. I would like to see less reliance on the menu system, that is direct display and control of ISO and exposure compensation. A smaller body AKA the CL would be nice, possibily in conjunction with even smaller 1.3 crop factor M mount lenses. I think that the M8 could evolve into serving a niche market which desires a ultra compact camera system but with a no holds bar approach to the quality of the image.
Meanwhile, the M8 is fine, actually pretty darn good.
Rex
Whoooh Nelly!! Your talking about my next Canon, not my next Leica! What you are talkiing about is all very fine but not for the Leica. A revolution about every half century is all Leica is good for. And they have just had there revolution for the first half of the 21st century.
Leica needs to refine the M8 to smooth out some of the wrinkles, especially the IR filter thing. I would like to see less reliance on the menu system, that is direct display and control of ISO and exposure compensation. A smaller body AKA the CL would be nice, possibily in conjunction with even smaller 1.3 crop factor M mount lenses. I think that the M8 could evolve into serving a niche market which desires a ultra compact camera system but with a no holds bar approach to the quality of the image.
Meanwhile, the M8 is fine, actually pretty darn good.
Rex
RayPA
Ignore It (It'll go away)
naos said:
no. not nowadays. no way.
Banky
Established
Yeah absolutely! Digital and all those functions will be in handy, but will it stop our brain from thinking. Will we let those tools set stop us from our critical, and creativity thinking? In my opinion both film, and digital are good in it own way. Conclusion is about how the users use their tool. This type of argument can go on forever. Just be critical to yourself.
ywenz
Veteran
Rex: You're old school.... real old school, but that's cool, to each of their own. I mean people today are enjoying those technically crappy lomo LCAs right?
Andy Aitken
Registered Loser
I think/hope the answer is "yes". Sure there are rapid developments in digital technology but all we seem to get are more Mps. The M8 simply delivers a very high image quality and that can't be made redundant. Sure we will, in future, probably get higher frame rates, built in IS and more Mp's but none of these will stop your "old" M8 making top quality pictures. I mean does anyone really think 10Mp isn't enough?
Having said that IS and better ISO/noise performance should mean that is easier to make good pictures in poorer conditions.
Having said that IS and better ISO/noise performance should mean that is easier to make good pictures in poorer conditions.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
naos said:
Same here; all sci-fi developments described in this thread will undoubtedly happen, plus a few we can't even imagine, but that is not for the basic type of photography we RF types practice. After all, oil paint has not changed since the days of Rembrandt, despite our current imaging revolution.
Leica going digital has been quite enough for me to handle. No more, please
Bobfrance
Over Exposed
bmattock said:
I have a far more cynical view of the advance of technology.
The gizmos that will end up on the cameras of the future will be the ones that appeal to joe public. ie. designed to the lowest common denominator.
The likely features will be cleverer modes such as a portrait mode that automatically makes the subject look slimmer and removes their spots.
Meanwhile hobbyists like many on these boards will still be gnashing their teeth and wondering why manufacturers can't use this wonderful technology to produce the kind of camera we want.
In my experience new tech isn't designed to improve out life, it's designed to improve mass sales.
Take the progression from video to DVD for example. It takes me longer to start a DVD recording then it ever did with a video tape. the quality is no better and DVDsi record on my machine don't work on many other peoples. I see this a lot with new consumer goods (phones etc.) lots of bells & whistles are added but the fundamental basic funtionality falls by the wayside.
Remember in the 60's when man landed on the moon they thought we'd all be living there, eating food pills and riding around with jetpacks by now.
Bob the luddite.
paisatge
Newbie
for me, it would be a full frame with clean iso 3200.
most probably comes with a live view and self cleaning sensor with battery life for 2000 shots.
most probably comes with a live view and self cleaning sensor with battery life for 2000 shots.
bmattock
Veteran
You guys crack me up. There's this new thing out, it's called 'fire'. I hear it's pretty neat, you can 'cook' with it.
But raw meat killed with a stick is probably much more pure to the art of being a hunter, so I understand why you refuse to use it.
Tell me, do you still watch a B&W 10 inch screen TV? Do you still drive a horse and buggy? Is electricity a fad?
The future of digital cameras is going to be great. But you guys wait here, I know you fear change. I'm moving on.
But raw meat killed with a stick is probably much more pure to the art of being a hunter, so I understand why you refuse to use it.
Tell me, do you still watch a B&W 10 inch screen TV? Do you still drive a horse and buggy? Is electricity a fad?
The future of digital cameras is going to be great. But you guys wait here, I know you fear change. I'm moving on.
Bobfrance
Over Exposed
Yeah go, and take you crystal ball with you!
*throws crystal ball*
*throws crystal ball*
naos
23 Skidoo
All I can say is, the M8 is the digital camera I dreamed about, more or less 5 years ago, before I even got into rangefinder's. It does everything I need it to do, and only that. The only other thing I could ask for on this camera would be a quiter shutter. : ) I find the M8 to be an almost perfect blend of manual RF shooting style with the digital world. Expecting 20 years from my M8 may be a long shot. Actually I'd be happy with being able to shoot it 10 years from now. I can't think of anything electronic I still use from 10 years ago. I'm hoping my camera will be an exception.
Personally I don't like the direction most digital camera's are going these days. Like some have said before, the photographer ceases to be and the camera starts to do all the thinking. Pretty soon, all we'll have to do and have our camera's pointed in the general direction of the subject and the camera will be able to compute a perfect Magnum Photo shot everytime.
Personally I don't like the direction most digital camera's are going these days. Like some have said before, the photographer ceases to be and the camera starts to do all the thinking. Pretty soon, all we'll have to do and have our camera's pointed in the general direction of the subject and the camera will be able to compute a perfect Magnum Photo shot everytime.
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jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
bmattock said:
I fear that you are confusing basic advances (like the digital rangefinder) with technical refinements that may have marketing reasons besides the technical considerations, add very little to the result and may even be undesirable in some situations (like autofocus). You know, we have very nice Senseo coffee machines nowadays. But I prefer my La Pavoni which has not changed since the early twentieth century.I'll be happy to see you move on. But with DSLR's camera phones and point and shoots. I might even walk with you part of the way. But not for rangefinder photography.
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