squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
I've been jonesing for a barnack-style camera for quite a while, and check the KEH listings for IIIc's and IIIf's pretty regularly. Never pulled the trigger, though. I used to have a Canon IVSB but didn't like the finder.
Nowadays I've been ogling the beautiful Zorki-3M, and its nice big finder is making me seriously consider choosing it over the Leicas. I assume its operation is rougher and shutter less reliable, but perhaps some of you have used both and can tell me. I don't expect it to operate like my M Leicas but could I expect decent usability?
I almost grabbed one from Yuri today, but he told me it just sold...
Nowadays I've been ogling the beautiful Zorki-3M, and its nice big finder is making me seriously consider choosing it over the Leicas. I assume its operation is rougher and shutter less reliable, but perhaps some of you have used both and can tell me. I don't expect it to operate like my M Leicas but could I expect decent usability?
I almost grabbed one from Yuri today, but he told me it just sold...
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Nice big viewfinder? Is that a 1:1 viewfinder by any chance, and less squinty than a Barnack or Fed-1 Fed-2 viewfinder?
I'd be intersted too if it were!
I'd be intersted too if it were!
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
oh yes indeed it is.
burninfilm
Well-known
I've used both LTM Leicas and a Zorki 3, and found I MUCH preferred the Leica LTM bodies. Please note, the LTM Leicas I've used have all been IIIa models, but they are very similar in function and performance to a IIIc. While the finder of a Zorki 3 is larger, I found it to be of rather low quality. Also, the mechanical aspects of the Zorki 3 always felt very crude compared to the smoothness of the Leica. I just never enjoyed using the Zorki 3 much, never really could bring myself to trust it, and the shutter mechanism of the Zorki 3 is known to not be nearly as reliable as the shutter of Leica. My example was no different, and the lower speeds never worked quite right. The Zorki 3M might be a little better due to the different design for the slow speeds. In the end, I took the superb Jupiter 8 lens from the Zorki 3 and mounted it onto my IIIa. Problem solved!
The Zorki 3 and 3m are both neat cameras, and if you find a good example, might be worth a try. But in my experience, an LTM Leica like a IIIc is by far a better camera. If you want a nice, big finder in an LTM camera for a low price, get a Canon 7.
The Zorki 3 and 3m are both neat cameras, and if you find a good example, might be worth a try. But in my experience, an LTM Leica like a IIIc is by far a better camera. If you want a nice, big finder in an LTM camera for a low price, get a Canon 7.
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Thanks for that report! I've had a 7--a bit large for me, and I didn't like the finder as much as I expected to. If I were to return to Canon, it would be to get another P. But it's the Barnack styling I'm attracted to at the moment.
xayraa33
rangefinder user and fancier
The Zorki 3M is a nice camera with a Finder that Leica should have had on the Barnacks, even the IIIg. Like all Soviet photo gear, the problem is to luck into a good specimen.
The fact that it was made in the mid 1950s helps, as the quality was not as bad as in later decades.
The fact that it was made in the mid 1950s helps, as the quality was not as bad as in later decades.
MartinP
Veteran
Don't laugh, but a Zorki-5 has the not-bright but very-contrasty-and-usable FED-2 style viewfinder on it, with basically the same size bodyshell as the Barnack style Zorkis. Might be worth a look. It also has dioptre adjustment, a better shutter and a wind-lever. Obviously, it makes sense to buy a cla'd example, ensuring at least a modicum of confidence.
I gather the Zorki-3m viewfinder is similar to the one in the Zorki-4 and in that one it was strangely tricky to see all the edges at the same time.
I gather the Zorki-3m viewfinder is similar to the one in the Zorki-4 and in that one it was strangely tricky to see all the edges at the same time.
Somehow I ended up with Three Zorki 3M's. Two were professionally CLA'd and one has new curtains. You can wind them using one finder, pulling it across the knob. The third one, I flood cleaned the slow speed escapement myself and "cheeze-wiz" corrected the vertical misalignment in the RF by putting some foam between the finder and top plate. It works, no easy way to do it otherwise.
The finder is nice, but hard to see the edges if you wear glasses. The built in diopter adjust is nice.
The camera is much bigger than a Leica IIIf.
The finder is nice, but hard to see the edges if you wear glasses. The built in diopter adjust is nice.
The camera is much bigger than a Leica IIIf.
Dez
Bodger Extraordinaire
IIIc vs Z3M
IIIc vs Z3M
There is a commonly-held perception that no FSU camera is even remotely in the same build quality class as a Leica. The perception is commonly held because it is true. The Russians used aluminum where the Germans used brass, and used paper shims aplenty rather than careful machining. The thought that a Jupiter 3 is a great lens but of course you need to fix the lensmount shims before you could actually use it at close distances would be unthinkable for Leitz.
All that said, the Russians were also a lot more imaginative than the Leica people when it came to introducing advanced features. The Zorki 3's pioneered a very nice, bright, large combined view/rangefinder, and made an easy provision for adjusting it both near and far, something the screwmount Leica cameras never did. Certainly, the Zorki 3 VF is prone to amusing traits like having its field of view change as you adjust the eyepiece diopter, but for my money, it's a lot easier to use than the Leica VF.
The Zorki is bigger, heavier, and clunkier than a Leica, but gives you a removable back, making it far easier to load than the Leicas. The Zorki 3M even gets all the speeds on one shutter speed dial, and although the slow speed escapement is not particularly well made or reliable, it can be replaced with one cannibalized from a Zorki 4, which is common as dirt.
The Zorki 3's are also a whole lot cheaper of course.
So I guess, if what you really want is something that is mechanically precise, and absolutely a joy to hold in your hand, go for the Leica IIIc. If you want something that looks cool but a tad clunky, is almost-smooth in operation, and a lot easier to use to take pictures, the Zorki 3M is for you.
Me, I can't make up my mind, so I have one of each.
Cheers,
Dez
IIIc vs Z3M
There is a commonly-held perception that no FSU camera is even remotely in the same build quality class as a Leica. The perception is commonly held because it is true. The Russians used aluminum where the Germans used brass, and used paper shims aplenty rather than careful machining. The thought that a Jupiter 3 is a great lens but of course you need to fix the lensmount shims before you could actually use it at close distances would be unthinkable for Leitz.
All that said, the Russians were also a lot more imaginative than the Leica people when it came to introducing advanced features. The Zorki 3's pioneered a very nice, bright, large combined view/rangefinder, and made an easy provision for adjusting it both near and far, something the screwmount Leica cameras never did. Certainly, the Zorki 3 VF is prone to amusing traits like having its field of view change as you adjust the eyepiece diopter, but for my money, it's a lot easier to use than the Leica VF.
The Zorki is bigger, heavier, and clunkier than a Leica, but gives you a removable back, making it far easier to load than the Leicas. The Zorki 3M even gets all the speeds on one shutter speed dial, and although the slow speed escapement is not particularly well made or reliable, it can be replaced with one cannibalized from a Zorki 4, which is common as dirt.
The Zorki 3's are also a whole lot cheaper of course.
So I guess, if what you really want is something that is mechanically precise, and absolutely a joy to hold in your hand, go for the Leica IIIc. If you want something that looks cool but a tad clunky, is almost-smooth in operation, and a lot easier to use to take pictures, the Zorki 3M is for you.
Me, I can't make up my mind, so I have one of each.
Cheers,
Dez
Of all the FSU cameras, my personal opinion is the Zorki 3M is the best made of the bunch. I have NOT used a very early Kiev. I've used early J-3's and ZK SOnnar, they are great. All required shimming and two required the helical to be repositioned in the mount.
But my favorite 3M, CLA'd by Oleg, Gets the converted Sonnar on it.
But my favorite 3M, CLA'd by Oleg, Gets the converted Sonnar on it.
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
I guess my interest in the 3M comes from its being a beautiful design. It does seem to exceed the Leica screwmounts, conceptually speaking, and it has a striking visual impact. As far as perfection in the hand goes, that's what my M2 is for...
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Actually this is not how it was meant by the Soviets either. Unlike any Leica camera, on Soviet LTM camera bodies it is very easy to adjust close focus. Don't adjust the lens for the camera, adjust the camera for the lens. Unlike adjusting the lens, it can be done by anyone at home who has a pair of tweezers and a a tape rule. I guess they were aware that their lenses weren't perfect. Not ideal if you have lots of fast lenses, but who would, anyway.
A situation that you have a user like Brian, who (a) wants to mix his lenses with non-FSU cameras, and who (b) has lots of fast lenses, would have been an exception anyway. He is an exception in the West, too.
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Brian is indeed exceptional. I've snatched one of his 3M's from him, too...the nice thing about these cameras is that they're always cheap enough to try out.
Adjusting the camera to the lenses only works if you keep one lens on the camera. I've done that with a couple of cameras, like the Nikon S2 being used with a Zeiss Opton Sonnar. I can also use it with some other Contax mount telephoto's, but not quite to infinity.
If you use a J-3, J-9, and J-11 on the camera- the camera cannot be adjusted every time you change the lens. Best to set the lens for each camera IF you plan on using it as an interchangeable lens camera.
"Exceptional" Oh yeah- my Dad always told me I was an exception....
If you use a J-3, J-9, and J-11 on the camera- the camera cannot be adjusted every time you change the lens. Best to set the lens for each camera IF you plan on using it as an interchangeable lens camera.
"Exceptional" Oh yeah- my Dad always told me I was an exception....
newspaperguy
Well-known
Lucky you Brian... mine said I was a mistake.
But, I digress...
IMO, having owned both - the 3M is so much easier to load on the go than the Barnacks, and so much cheaper.
The bigger finder is nice, but vague, and the solidity is missing. (was that a word?) Oleg had smoothed mine out, but I ended up selling it to a list member back in the first incarnation of this forum.
PS: Brian, brace yourself - another 12"-to-20" of snow tonight.
But, I digress...
IMO, having owned both - the 3M is so much easier to load on the go than the Barnacks, and so much cheaper.
The bigger finder is nice, but vague, and the solidity is missing. (was that a word?) Oleg had smoothed mine out, but I ended up selling it to a list member back in the first incarnation of this forum.
PS: Brian, brace yourself - another 12"-to-20" of snow tonight.
Yeah- I got up to check the weather report. This is the worst winter ever in my 40 years of living in this area. Had the driveway plowed yesterday. Will do again later. We were lucky not to lose power, hope luck holds. Have 20 gallons of gas for the generator, should be enough to get out again.
Will be doing some more lens projects.
Will be doing some more lens projects.
I'd like to add that the Shims used in the J-3, J-3, J-9, and J-11 are all nicely machined aluminum. I've checked them all the way around with Digital calipers, and they are quite flat.
If a technician does not feel like spending much time performing an adjustment, and knows the user is just going to use the interchangeable lens camera with the one lens, the quick and easy way is to adjust the camera. But it just will not work if the owner of the camera wants to use a telephoto lens with the same camera. In that case, the lenses have to be adjusted for the set.
If a technician does not feel like spending much time performing an adjustment, and knows the user is just going to use the interchangeable lens camera with the one lens, the quick and easy way is to adjust the camera. But it just will not work if the owner of the camera wants to use a telephoto lens with the same camera. In that case, the lenses have to be adjusted for the set.