ywenz
Veteran
I've been following the news coverage of the country wide protests on immigration reform.. What really stood out and annoyed me was the fact that there were more flags been waved that are from their countries of origin than the american flag. Here are these people who seek general amnesty for all illegals to become american citizens, yet they choose to hold up the flag from their home country... :bang:
Andy K
Well-known
ywenz said:
I didn't think that was unusual in the US? After all you have Native Americans, Irish Americans, German Americans, Italian Americans, Caribbean Americans... etc. etc all of whom are proud of their own flags alongside the Stars and Stripes. I don't see how these people waving their country of origin flags is any different.
lubitel
Well-known
I think its perfectly normal to be proud of 2 countries, I am proud of my Russian roots and proud to be an American.
pesphoto
Veteran
Yeah, I can see your point, but this country is a melting pot and there is nothing wrong with showing and being proud of your heritage. Though it would be nice if they were waving not only their own flag, but the American flag side by side. Its a tough issue and im not quite sure where I stand on this quite yet. I dont know if I agree with just giving EVERYONE citizenship, shouldnt one have to somewhat learn our language, culture, have or working towards having a job,etc before granted citizenship? It seems SOME people want all our freedoms and rights as Americans, but not to work for them.
Andy K
Well-known
The US comprises many different cultures side by side. 'Our culture' could mean anything, as could 'our language'. In 10 to 15 years the majority in the US will be Spanish speaking, what will be the standard for language then? Don't forget also that excepting Native Americans and many African Americans, everyone in the US is either a migrant or descended fom migrants.
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kmack
do your job, then let go
pesphoto said:
I'm in the same boat, as the grandson of legal immigrants I never really had to "work for" any rights as an U.S. citizen. My grandparents did all the heavy lifting in that reguard. My father and all of my uncles served during WWII further cementing our ties to the U.S.
The difference is, I think, my grandparents went to the trouble entering legally and shead most of their culture of "The Old Country". They tried to fit in as best as possible (except for a weird attachment to polka music and slivovka)
I have no problem with legal immigration.
Please discuss this topic with respect and good taste. This can be a very "ugly" topic if not handled like it is, thanks for keeping it above board.
Ergo
Observer
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ywenz
Veteran
Andy K said:
The context I speak of are these rallies in support of giving illegal immigrants american citizenships. If these people want to become american so badly, why are they waving the foreign flags at these rallies? I don't have a problem with the display of a foreign flag in any other situation, but I have a huge problem with this one. It looks to me that they badly want the opportunities that exist within the u.s. borders, but have little alligence to the usa. Their display yesterday is very telling.
Sure, america is probably the most ethnically diverse country in the world, but there is a reason why we only fly the American flag at the Olympics...
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=139522341&size=o
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bmattock
Veteran
When my great-great-grandparents came to the USA (from Ireland and Germany), legal immigration was much more available than it is now - we had a "ya'll come" attitude because we needed people. We're not "full" now, but we don't need (nor can our social infrastructure easily support) a large influx of legal immigrants as we once did. That makes it difficult for people who want to come to the USA legally to do so. I'm not saying this is right or this is wrong, it simply is.
We also have a strong tradition of hiring illegal immigrants to work at below-minimum wage jobs, such as fairly unskilled farm labor and domestic help. We turn a blind eye to this, because although we do not want illegal aliens, we want what they give us.
The issue has now crept into the public awareness for the first time since Cesar Chavez formed the United Farm Worker's Union, and the illegal immigrants know this - they must strike now, while they are above the radar. Hence, the demonstrations, the marches, the days of protest. No matter what flag is flown, I am glad the demonstrations have been largely peaceful.
Many citizens are fearful. Regardless of what depredations our own forefathers went through when they arrived in the USA, no matter how they were ostracized and formed ghetto neighborhoods (ghetto is/was not a bad word, please look it up if that offends you) to protect each other and in some sense, to preserve their traditions.
We can also look at our largely Anglo forefathers and say "They learned to speak English" and "They learned to blend in" but at the same time - they also looked like the majority of the population. Italians and Greeks and Armenians and Poles and Irish and British and Germans and Czechs and Bohemians and so on - all more or less 'blended' pretty well, once divorced from their parent's accented English and traditional dress and customs. Hispanics, Asians - how do they do that? Should they have to?
Even today, my family keeps it's Irish heritage alive (actually Welsh by way of Ireland). I've spoken to Irishmen who laugh at us - they think we're bloody fools and should just accept that we're "Americans." We say "Caid mi la failte" and they crack up.
So, we're a nation of immigrants, but we've largely lost touch with our immigrant roots and how it feels to be an immigrant. We don't understand, based on the stories of our own family's integration into society, why today's immigrants can't do the same thing. We want to honor our own history and traditions, but we've move so far from our roots that our own distant relatives in those lands find us amusing and somewhat insulting.
I think many of us are in a quandry as to what to do. The questions before us are many.
1) Is it right to 'reward' people who are already in this country illegally by giving them citizenship or a fast-track to citizenship, especially over those who followed the rules and waited until their names were called for legal immigration?
2) Is it right to deny citizenship to people who already are loyal sons and daughters of the USA in many ways? Their children, born here and citizens by that virture alone, join the US military, serve our country in a variety of ways - what more would we have asked of our own forefathers?
3) A country can be viewed in some sense as a lifeboat. It can support one in luxury, two in comfort, three in satisfaction, four in bare essentials, and at five - everyone starves and the boat sinks. We can 'share' but is there an end to it? Ever? Is it ever OK to say "NO MORE!"
4) While other countries once again point out the many evils of the USA and how we regard our borders and the precious gift of 'citizenship', they are certainly having their own problems with immigrants, legal and otherwise - no one is really in a position to point fingers at us.
5) Some countries offer two tiers of citizenship or special 'guest worker' status - legal but not immigrant / citizen. Is that something we can explore here, or does that stratify society? And if it does create 'second-class citizens' is that different from what we already have 'de facto'?
6) Are others not aware that even illegal immigrants in the USA are afforded most of the rights guaranteed US citizens? They can't vote and may find it difficult to get some social services such as Social Security, they don't get paid or benefits that are otherwise mandated in the USA - but otherwise they seem to partake of the benefits of citizenship. Buying cars and houses, raising families - not all illegal immigrants are poverty-stricken.
Of course, I can take a more 'economics-minded' viewpoint - let 'em in! Give them citizenship! That way Social Security won't be flat busted by the time I retire, and maybe I'll have two nickels to rub together.
As I lived for a number of years in New Mexico, I am familiar with having Hispanic surnames at every level of government - and comfortable with it. Learning spanish doesn't frighten me, (although I am not that good at it) and ultimately, if the Pledge of Allegience is someday said in Spanish (or Chinese), "America" is an idea and an ideal - it is not a language.
I don't have a solution, or even a good grasp of what the next step should be. But I'm willing to listen, to learn, and to try to find the right way to move ahead as a nation.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
We also have a strong tradition of hiring illegal immigrants to work at below-minimum wage jobs, such as fairly unskilled farm labor and domestic help. We turn a blind eye to this, because although we do not want illegal aliens, we want what they give us.
The issue has now crept into the public awareness for the first time since Cesar Chavez formed the United Farm Worker's Union, and the illegal immigrants know this - they must strike now, while they are above the radar. Hence, the demonstrations, the marches, the days of protest. No matter what flag is flown, I am glad the demonstrations have been largely peaceful.
Many citizens are fearful. Regardless of what depredations our own forefathers went through when they arrived in the USA, no matter how they were ostracized and formed ghetto neighborhoods (ghetto is/was not a bad word, please look it up if that offends you) to protect each other and in some sense, to preserve their traditions.
We can also look at our largely Anglo forefathers and say "They learned to speak English" and "They learned to blend in" but at the same time - they also looked like the majority of the population. Italians and Greeks and Armenians and Poles and Irish and British and Germans and Czechs and Bohemians and so on - all more or less 'blended' pretty well, once divorced from their parent's accented English and traditional dress and customs. Hispanics, Asians - how do they do that? Should they have to?
Even today, my family keeps it's Irish heritage alive (actually Welsh by way of Ireland). I've spoken to Irishmen who laugh at us - they think we're bloody fools and should just accept that we're "Americans." We say "Caid mi la failte" and they crack up.
So, we're a nation of immigrants, but we've largely lost touch with our immigrant roots and how it feels to be an immigrant. We don't understand, based on the stories of our own family's integration into society, why today's immigrants can't do the same thing. We want to honor our own history and traditions, but we've move so far from our roots that our own distant relatives in those lands find us amusing and somewhat insulting.
I think many of us are in a quandry as to what to do. The questions before us are many.
1) Is it right to 'reward' people who are already in this country illegally by giving them citizenship or a fast-track to citizenship, especially over those who followed the rules and waited until their names were called for legal immigration?
2) Is it right to deny citizenship to people who already are loyal sons and daughters of the USA in many ways? Their children, born here and citizens by that virture alone, join the US military, serve our country in a variety of ways - what more would we have asked of our own forefathers?
3) A country can be viewed in some sense as a lifeboat. It can support one in luxury, two in comfort, three in satisfaction, four in bare essentials, and at five - everyone starves and the boat sinks. We can 'share' but is there an end to it? Ever? Is it ever OK to say "NO MORE!"
4) While other countries once again point out the many evils of the USA and how we regard our borders and the precious gift of 'citizenship', they are certainly having their own problems with immigrants, legal and otherwise - no one is really in a position to point fingers at us.
5) Some countries offer two tiers of citizenship or special 'guest worker' status - legal but not immigrant / citizen. Is that something we can explore here, or does that stratify society? And if it does create 'second-class citizens' is that different from what we already have 'de facto'?
6) Are others not aware that even illegal immigrants in the USA are afforded most of the rights guaranteed US citizens? They can't vote and may find it difficult to get some social services such as Social Security, they don't get paid or benefits that are otherwise mandated in the USA - but otherwise they seem to partake of the benefits of citizenship. Buying cars and houses, raising families - not all illegal immigrants are poverty-stricken.
Of course, I can take a more 'economics-minded' viewpoint - let 'em in! Give them citizenship! That way Social Security won't be flat busted by the time I retire, and maybe I'll have two nickels to rub together.
As I lived for a number of years in New Mexico, I am familiar with having Hispanic surnames at every level of government - and comfortable with it. Learning spanish doesn't frighten me, (although I am not that good at it) and ultimately, if the Pledge of Allegience is someday said in Spanish (or Chinese), "America" is an idea and an ideal - it is not a language.
I don't have a solution, or even a good grasp of what the next step should be. But I'm willing to listen, to learn, and to try to find the right way to move ahead as a nation.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
bmattock
Veteran
ywenz said:
I didn't take it that way when I saw the flags of many nations - I took it to mean that they were saying to the cameras and to us - "This is where we come from" and then hundreds of different flags. I didn't see it as a superiority thing or a refusal to become "American" and all that that implies.
I saw as many US flags as I did other flags.
ywenz
Veteran
bmattock said:
yikes!
N
Nick R.
Guest
Well put, Bill.
I'll add that while many people say that illegals do jobs that americans won't do I say that's not true. Illegals do jobs for which Americans won't pay. Legal immigrants won't work for substandard (often illegal) wages.
Do you want to stop illegal immigration?
Then:
Hire a gardener who charges more because he doesn't hire illegals (for shamefully low wages).
Eat at a restaurant that charges more because it doesn't hire illegals (for shamefully low wages).
Hire a contractor who charges more because he doesn't hire illegals (for shamefully low wages).
You get the idea. Americans will do any of these jobs but not at the wages that we want to pay. We already pay our manufacturing labor force absurdly low wages to make all of our consumer goods. The trouble is it would take to long to bus our tables all the way to China so they have to come here to work in our restaurants. However, only a person in this country illegally would work here for the kind of wages they pay in China.
I'll add that while many people say that illegals do jobs that americans won't do I say that's not true. Illegals do jobs for which Americans won't pay. Legal immigrants won't work for substandard (often illegal) wages.
Do you want to stop illegal immigration?
Then:
Hire a gardener who charges more because he doesn't hire illegals (for shamefully low wages).
Eat at a restaurant that charges more because it doesn't hire illegals (for shamefully low wages).
Hire a contractor who charges more because he doesn't hire illegals (for shamefully low wages).
You get the idea. Americans will do any of these jobs but not at the wages that we want to pay. We already pay our manufacturing labor force absurdly low wages to make all of our consumer goods. The trouble is it would take to long to bus our tables all the way to China so they have to come here to work in our restaurants. However, only a person in this country illegally would work here for the kind of wages they pay in China.
bmattock
Veteran
Nick R. said:
You're right, and I agree.
However, let's assume for a moment that we put up a 100% effective fence and send all illegal immigrants home. Then we have to fill these jobs, or the US grinds slowly (or not so slowly) to a halt. So we have to pay what the market demands for this type of labor.
That money does not come out of an invisible pocket. It comes out of businesses' profits. They in turn MUST raise prices, unless they already have obscene profit margins (and seriously, no matter how much anyone hates 'big business' aside from the oil industry there are not a lot of obscene profits running around these days). When the added expense is passed along to the consumer, they in turn must demand higher wages of their employers and so on. Inflation causes the price of everything to go up.
Eventually, equilibrium is reached - but of course consumers and workers get squeezed first and paid back last, so it is never a gentle lifting of all boats, and even though everything costs more and everybody gets paid slightly more, in truth nothing has really changed - buying power stays the same.
What that means - as I understand it - is that for a large sector of the US workforce to experience a TRUE raise in wages - not just a 'percentage' or 'number' increase, the US must be willing to absorb a permanent cut in what the average person's buying power is. The numbers do not matter - eventually. What matters is 'what the market will absorb'. I don't think there is a lot of slack - the chain is pulled taut already. Lifting their standard of living in real terms must hurt my own.
It's like the old problem of getting rid of poverty. No one likes to admit it, but there must be a broad base to the economic pyramid - that's how it works. If you could just give everyone a raise, the net effect is just that everybody pays more for goods and services in more-or-less proportion to the raise they got. Net effect is nothing; it is a zero sum game.
To sum up - whether illegal immigrants or citizens do these jobs, if we are forced to pay 'living wages' to them for doing them, the price of everything else goes up in proportion, and nobody wins. To make the 'win' for the labor force permanent, the middle classes and/or the higher classes must take it on the chin.
I could be wrong, but that's how I currently understand this situation.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
titrisol
Bottom Feeder
I'm a legal visitor, tried to be a legal immigrant at no avail....so I have to leave in about 2 months
It is a royal PITA to deal with immigration, and the higher your qualifications are the ahrder it is to get accepted by immigration.
I'm damn proud of my roots, and while my daughters are american they are receiving a strict education in the same lines I did, open but keeping some costumes and traditions, emphazising the need to learn more than 2 languages and be good at math and science.
Anyway back to the point, illegal immigration is more or less like drugs.... as long as there is demand supply will keep coming... be it from Mexico/Latinamerica, haiti, eastern block countries, you name it.
It is a royal PITA to deal with immigration, and the higher your qualifications are the ahrder it is to get accepted by immigration.
I'm damn proud of my roots, and while my daughters are american they are receiving a strict education in the same lines I did, open but keeping some costumes and traditions, emphazising the need to learn more than 2 languages and be good at math and science.
Anyway back to the point, illegal immigration is more or less like drugs.... as long as there is demand supply will keep coming... be it from Mexico/Latinamerica, haiti, eastern block countries, you name it.
bmattocks said:
Andy K
Well-known
It is worth pointing out that everyone at those rallies was American. Not all, however, were United States citizens.
bmattock
Veteran
titrisol said:
I agree. And I work with a lot of IT workers from other countries who have the same problem getting permission to work in the USA, never mind gaining permanent status.
You are of course right about illegal immigration - the jobs will be filled and if the fences aren't high enough, the workers will come. The question is whether we in the USA will:
1) continue to turn a blind eye and pretend it is not happening,
2) accept it and create some sort of program (leading to citizenship or not),
3) or try to close our borders entirely and force employers to pay higher wages to US citizens to do those jobs.
I suspect that #3 is not going to work even if we did try it (as you said, they will come regardless), so we either go back to ignoring the situation or we find a solution that will not make everyone happy, but will make the fewest people unhappy.
And yes, we can certainly choose #1. This is not the first time we've faced this question in the USA, for those of us who recall the grape table wine boycotts of the 1970's.
Personally, I'd like to see us find a fair solution that does not make people have to break the law to feed their families. As a selfish person, I do not want to sacrifice much in the way of my standard of living for that to happen, but in the end, we must find a way to be fair to as many as possible.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
bmattock
Veteran
Andy K said:
I am presuming you mean that they are all from North, Central, or South America. That is, they are all 'American'.
I have to disagree. I saw a lot of Korean, Chinese, and other flags from Middle-Eastern countries. Immigrants, legal and otherwise, come from all over. I even saw an Irish flag.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
Sparrow
Veteran
when I travel the west coast I am struck by the way Boston Quincy Greenwich and Tarrytown remain ethnically and culturally the same year on year, the taxi drivers in Manhattan however speak a different language every time, you seem to be able to absorb and retain a “national identity” the US has obviously made historic mistakes but seems from an outsiders point of view to be doing not bad at the present, even from Philadelphia to Charleston has defied my preconceptions
PS following a visa mix-up one year I was an illegal and your immigration officers are very scary
PS following a visa mix-up one year I was an illegal and your immigration officers are very scary
JimG
dogzen
>>1) continue to turn a blind eye and pretend it is not happening, <<
Bill, there are still many problems with option one as I'm sure you are aware. I worked in human services for 14 years helping new immigrants from places as diverse as Cambodia, Eritrea, Latin America and other nations adjust to living in the U.S. I saw that when people are here without legal residency status they were denied drivers licenses and were unable to get auto insurance. If they were stopped their cars were confiscated. At one time pregnant women were denied pre-natal care which caused higher rates of childhood disabilities and so on. Many rights we take for granite are denied these people despite the fact that they pay the taxes that support these services.
For most people citizenship is not the issue, they only ask to not be treated as criminals and to provide them with the services they pay for and are therefore entitled to. Jim
Bill, there are still many problems with option one as I'm sure you are aware. I worked in human services for 14 years helping new immigrants from places as diverse as Cambodia, Eritrea, Latin America and other nations adjust to living in the U.S. I saw that when people are here without legal residency status they were denied drivers licenses and were unable to get auto insurance. If they were stopped their cars were confiscated. At one time pregnant women were denied pre-natal care which caused higher rates of childhood disabilities and so on. Many rights we take for granite are denied these people despite the fact that they pay the taxes that support these services.
For most people citizenship is not the issue, they only ask to not be treated as criminals and to provide them with the services they pay for and are therefore entitled to. Jim