jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
In every M8 thread somebody sees it fit to introduce the IR issue, resulting in no end of yes-no type of discussion. Let's put an end to it by lumping it all together in this thread.
Up front. There is no M8 owner that I know of that denies that the M8 is the most IR sensitive camera on the market - not counting some MF backs.
There is no denying that basically all sensor types exhibit an enhanced sensitivity to IR, making some kind of filter a prerequisite for normal photography.
If Leica knew beforehand that this was an issue is pure speculation. There are all kinds of conspiracy theories imaginable as well as all kinds of apologist arguments, but none are provable and all are destructive and contribute nothing whatever to a sane discussion.
It all boils down to the question where the filter should be located.
Arguments for a filter in front of the lens:
1. Not putting a filter in front of the sensor enhances IQ.
2. A filter can be removed if not required, for instance when there is a low IR intensity in the light or when the IR reflectivity of the subject is low.
3. In B&W photography the shift in grayscale from IR is not detrimental to the artistic rendering of the subject, so here a filter is not needed.
4. IR filters are said to be less subject to flare than other types of filter.
5. About 50% of photographers use protective or UV filters anyway, so it makes no difference.
6. The cost of the filter is low in comparison to the price of the camera and Leica lenses, and Leica provides two filters free.
7. A filter in front of the sensor on a rangefinder camera, with its steep angle of incidence, would cause cyan vignetting that is difficult to correct in firmware, as opposed to a filter in front of the lens, that only requires lens coding.
8. Photographers have been using light-balancing filters since time immemorial.
9. Using a polfilter is no problem, as it only is used in minimum-flare conditions.
Arguments in favor of a sensor filter:
1. A lens filter is an undesirable complication and a stop-gap solution.
2. Filters add unneccesary costs to an already expensive camera.
3. Other camera brands manage to produce IR-corrected camera's.
4. Filters cause flare, especially on digital camera's
5. Filters in front of the lens also cause cyan vignetting which makes software corrections necessary, losing dynamic range in the corners.
6. Not using a IR filter in B&W photography influences the gray-scale.
7. In-camera correction of cyan vignetting is difficult if not impossible on non-codable lenses.
8. The need to code lenses adds more extra costs.
9. Using a pol-filter or any other filter involves the stacking of filters which is basically undesirable and detrimental to IQ
10. Bystanders might react unfavorably to the colour of the filter.
Which divides photographers into four groups:
1.Those that will not accept the use of IR filters and will decide to go elsewhere.
2.Those that will dislike the idea of using filters but will accept it, because they like the camera well enough to overcome their distaste.
3.Those that used filters anyway and don't mind exchanging them.
4.Those that accept the technical argument and welcome the solution because of better image quality.
So there you are. Judge the arguments and decide which group you belong to and act acordingly, but please, let's not pollute all threads with this repetitive bickering any more.
Btw. I freely confess that I am wavering between group 2 and 4.
Up front. There is no M8 owner that I know of that denies that the M8 is the most IR sensitive camera on the market - not counting some MF backs.
There is no denying that basically all sensor types exhibit an enhanced sensitivity to IR, making some kind of filter a prerequisite for normal photography.
If Leica knew beforehand that this was an issue is pure speculation. There are all kinds of conspiracy theories imaginable as well as all kinds of apologist arguments, but none are provable and all are destructive and contribute nothing whatever to a sane discussion.
It all boils down to the question where the filter should be located.
Arguments for a filter in front of the lens:
1. Not putting a filter in front of the sensor enhances IQ.
2. A filter can be removed if not required, for instance when there is a low IR intensity in the light or when the IR reflectivity of the subject is low.
3. In B&W photography the shift in grayscale from IR is not detrimental to the artistic rendering of the subject, so here a filter is not needed.
4. IR filters are said to be less subject to flare than other types of filter.
5. About 50% of photographers use protective or UV filters anyway, so it makes no difference.
6. The cost of the filter is low in comparison to the price of the camera and Leica lenses, and Leica provides two filters free.
7. A filter in front of the sensor on a rangefinder camera, with its steep angle of incidence, would cause cyan vignetting that is difficult to correct in firmware, as opposed to a filter in front of the lens, that only requires lens coding.
8. Photographers have been using light-balancing filters since time immemorial.
9. Using a polfilter is no problem, as it only is used in minimum-flare conditions.
Arguments in favor of a sensor filter:
1. A lens filter is an undesirable complication and a stop-gap solution.
2. Filters add unneccesary costs to an already expensive camera.
3. Other camera brands manage to produce IR-corrected camera's.
4. Filters cause flare, especially on digital camera's
5. Filters in front of the lens also cause cyan vignetting which makes software corrections necessary, losing dynamic range in the corners.
6. Not using a IR filter in B&W photography influences the gray-scale.
7. In-camera correction of cyan vignetting is difficult if not impossible on non-codable lenses.
8. The need to code lenses adds more extra costs.
9. Using a pol-filter or any other filter involves the stacking of filters which is basically undesirable and detrimental to IQ
10. Bystanders might react unfavorably to the colour of the filter.
Which divides photographers into four groups:
1.Those that will not accept the use of IR filters and will decide to go elsewhere.
2.Those that will dislike the idea of using filters but will accept it, because they like the camera well enough to overcome their distaste.
3.Those that used filters anyway and don't mind exchanging them.
4.Those that accept the technical argument and welcome the solution because of better image quality.
So there you are. Judge the arguments and decide which group you belong to and act acordingly, but please, let's not pollute all threads with this repetitive bickering any more.
Btw. I freely confess that I am wavering between group 2 and 4.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I can't form an opinion yet. I'm still waiting. Been waiting since October.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
You make me feel guilty, Gabriel. I just picked up my second M8 body today. It should have been yours...
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Don't worry, Jaap, not your fault. You didn't get it from the U.S., right?
Athena
Well-known
How dead does this horse have to be before you stop beating it? :bang:
Peter Klein
Well-known
In the early Stephen Sondheim musical "Anyone Can Whistle," inmates of the local insane asylum (called the Cookie Jar) mix with the general population of their town. At which point, nobody can tell who is who. A visiting doctor says that he can separate the Cookies from the townspeople. After some interrogation, he assigns the people to two groups: Group A and Group One. But he won't tell which group is sane and which is insane. And therein hangs the plot.
So, fellow RFFers, are you in Group A or Group One?
--Peter
So, fellow RFFers, are you in Group A or Group One?
--Peter
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I'm in Group Q, but I was kicked out of the Continuum, temporarily.Peter Klein said:So, fellow RFFers, are you in Group A or Group One?
Toby
On the alert
I never thought anything would make me nostalgic for 'is film dead?' threads
J. Borger
Well-known
Where is the group that enjoys the M8 tremendously WITHOUT using the ir filters ???
Who use appropriate colorprofiles (from Jamie) and/or B&W profiles ....... that's my group: GROUP5!
Who use appropriate colorprofiles (from Jamie) and/or B&W profiles ....... that's my group: GROUP5!
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Exactly my point. Thank you. So let's move all IR posts to this thread and let it die a silent death....Athena said:
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Those are the sane ones; they are not supposed to be reading this thread.J. Borger said:
kbg32
neo-romanticist
Two M8s Jaap?!!! I can't even get the one I ordered in November.
kbg32
neo-romanticist
Yes. Lets have this thread die.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Sorrykbg32 said:
I justwalked into my Leica dealer and bought one. Maybe because it is mainly Americans complaining about M8 "issues"that Leica is sending the new batch to Europe How is that for a conspiracy theory? Ben Z
Veteran
Believe it or not I'm in group 1 I'm betting there are more people "out there" in my frame of mind than not, and betting as well that Leica's market researchers don't just read the high praise from a handful of fanboys on the internet and report back to Solms that all is well. I'm betting the manager of my dealer was being honest when he said the majority of their pre-orders evaporated once the filter "solution" was revealed, and that his boss has contacted the rep, and the rep told him other dealers and other reps have cancelled a large number of orders to Allendale, and that Allendale has expressed its dismay to Solms and "suggested" they find a way to fit a stronger IR filter to the sensor ASAP. Maybe it's all just someone I've known to be 100% straightforward for 25 years suddenly deciding to become a self-destructive liar, but I doubt it.
That said, there is a possibility I could end up in category #2 at some point. Right now there is still no firmware 1.10 that has the cyan corner correction. Right now there is still a shortage of IR filters, nobody seems to know which ones if any are MRC coated or how to guarantee that's what they get if they order them, and Leica's filters aren't on the market yet. Heck, right now it's hard to come by a spare friggin' battery! By the time that's straigtened out, the waiting-list situation for the M8 will probably have changed. I figure that by next fall there will either be a new model with a stronger IR filter, or if not at least I will be able to go down to my dealer and get an M8 with all the firmware and hardware bugs solved, and all the MRC (Leica or B+W) IR filters I need without having to surf the net and order from Timbuktu. That will be the time I might decide to take the plunge. Heck maybe there will be demos by then
I'm betting there are more people "out there" in my frame of mind than not, and betting as well that Leica's market researchers don't just read the high praise from a handful of fanboys on the internet and report back to Solms that all is well. I'm betting the manager of my dealer was being honest when he said the majority of their pre-orders evaporated once the filter "solution" was revealed, and that his boss has contacted the rep, and the rep told him other dealers and other reps have cancelled a large number of orders to Allendale, and that Allendale has expressed its dismay to Solms and "suggested" they find a way to fit a stronger IR filter to the sensor ASAP. Maybe it's all just someone I've known to be 100% straightforward for 25 years suddenly deciding to become a self-destructive liar, but I doubt it. That said, there is a possibility I could end up in category #2 at some point. Right now there is still no firmware 1.10 that has the cyan corner correction. Right now there is still a shortage of IR filters, nobody seems to know which ones if any are MRC coated or how to guarantee that's what they get if they order them, and Leica's filters aren't on the market yet. Heck, right now it's hard to come by a spare friggin' battery! By the time that's straigtened out, the waiting-list situation for the M8 will probably have changed. I figure that by next fall there will either be a new model with a stronger IR filter, or if not at least I will be able to go down to my dealer and get an M8 with all the firmware and hardware bugs solved, and all the MRC (Leica or B+W) IR filters I need without having to surf the net and order from Timbuktu. That will be the time I might decide to take the plunge. Heck maybe there will be demos by then
R
RML
Guest
The M8 is waaaaay out of my budget, and my R-D1 is still working well.
However, if I had the money.... I don't mind the IR sensitivity but it does seem a bit extreme. The R-D1 is sensitive too but it's not easy to notice. I understand and accept Leica's technical explanation, and even understand the filter solution. However, I never use filters, and for good reasons: flare and ghosting. Plus, they get dirty easily (and aren't that easy to clean well), they scratch, and all that adds to the chances of introducing flare. So, no filters for me. But I won't vote as I'll probably never be able to afford the M8.
However, if I had the money.... I don't mind the IR sensitivity but it does seem a bit extreme. The R-D1 is sensitive too but it's not easy to notice. I understand and accept Leica's technical explanation, and even understand the filter solution. However, I never use filters, and for good reasons: flare and ghosting. Plus, they get dirty easily (and aren't that easy to clean well), they scratch, and all that adds to the chances of introducing flare. So, no filters for me. But I won't vote as I'll probably never be able to afford the M8.
Ash
Selflessly Self-involved
I've been avoiding all these threads, but isn't high IR sensitivity a GOOD thing?? With a UV-cutoff filter you could manage some good digital IR photography
... that was my first and only thought process. I'd use an external filter, in front of the lens is desirable - clogging up the insides of the camera isnt.
So to be honest I don't fit into any category. If/when I come across an M8 (actually, probably M9 or M10 by the time I can afford it!!) I'm keen to exploit the IR 'issue' not get rid of it!
... that was my first and only thought process. I'd use an external filter, in front of the lens is desirable - clogging up the insides of the camera isnt.
So to be honest I don't fit into any category. If/when I come across an M8 (actually, probably M9 or M10 by the time I can afford it!!) I'm keen to exploit the IR 'issue' not get rid of it!
eon
Established
I don't understand the need for group 4. Isn't the tecnichal understanding a nessesary background for beeing in group 2?
BTW, it seems many M8's have been delivered i the USA. There is a shortage in Europe too. As far as i know only one chrome M8 have come to Sweden yet. I ordered mine in November and will probably have to wait a few months more.
The problem is that Leica seems to deliver to dealers that don't have a waiting list, instead to those dealers that have firm customer orders. A strange and rude bussiness behaviour.
/Erik
BTW, it seems many M8's have been delivered i the USA. There is a shortage in Europe too. As far as i know only one chrome M8 have come to Sweden yet. I ordered mine in November and will probably have to wait a few months more.
The problem is that Leica seems to deliver to dealers that don't have a waiting list, instead to those dealers that have firm customer orders. A strange and rude bussiness behaviour.
/Erik
Dougg
Seasoned Member
I think Han and Ash have it right; celebrate the IR sensitivity and make use of it... There's always the option of filtering out IR if desired. Flexibility!
fgianni
Trainee Amateur
Actually having IR filtration on the lens side is not on principle a bad idea, you can put an IR block filter in fron tof the camera to use it as a normal camera, or a filter that blocks visible light and have an exellent IR camera, also doing away with the hot mirror would increase image quality.
It is the idea to have a hot mirror that only does a partial filtration on the sensor, and then having to filter the rest lens-side, that I find terribly silly.
It is the idea to have a hot mirror that only does a partial filtration on the sensor, and then having to filter the rest lens-side, that I find terribly silly.