Finglas
Established
I have one query- concerning advice that was freely given in books, magazines and perhaps online too (not that I've seen much of that).
The query arises due to the vast reduction in available choice of 35mm film
that we have today (2014) in that a lot of the film we see now is what would have been and indeed might still be considered Professional film.
The "old advice" was that if using "professional film" it should be stored in cool conditions taken out a day or so before use, exposed fairly quickly - days or a week - rather than months - and then developed pretty quickly too.
Commentators and writers used to say to readers, that using "Professional film" is NOT the same as using consumer film - as consumer film had more latitude for delays in getting through the roll and developing. How true is this really today?
Given that there is so little consumer film now - I wonder if film manufacturers have evened things out a little - to allow us longer to shoot the film and longer to develop it for example if used abroad on holiday etc. Or should the "old advice" still apply!
The query arises due to the vast reduction in available choice of 35mm film
that we have today (2014) in that a lot of the film we see now is what would have been and indeed might still be considered Professional film.
The "old advice" was that if using "professional film" it should be stored in cool conditions taken out a day or so before use, exposed fairly quickly - days or a week - rather than months - and then developed pretty quickly too.
Commentators and writers used to say to readers, that using "Professional film" is NOT the same as using consumer film - as consumer film had more latitude for delays in getting through the roll and developing. How true is this really today?
Given that there is so little consumer film now - I wonder if film manufacturers have evened things out a little - to allow us longer to shoot the film and longer to develop it for example if used abroad on holiday etc. Or should the "old advice" still apply!
redisburning
Well-known
time, temperature etc. all affect film. the more they are exposed, the more they are affected.
manufacturers simply understood that people paying for professional film were less tolerant of the reduction of the baseline quality of the product so advised buyers to act within a faster window, keep the film cool, etc.
Im sure individual stocks vary in how much they are affected as well, but that is probably not something that shows up in the data sheet. My advice to you is that if you are a low volume shooter, don't worry too much about it. Just keep your film cool until youre ready to use it (and certainly dont let it get hot), and try and get it developed after youre done shooting.
manufacturers simply understood that people paying for professional film were less tolerant of the reduction of the baseline quality of the product so advised buyers to act within a faster window, keep the film cool, etc.
Im sure individual stocks vary in how much they are affected as well, but that is probably not something that shows up in the data sheet. My advice to you is that if you are a low volume shooter, don't worry too much about it. Just keep your film cool until youre ready to use it (and certainly dont let it get hot), and try and get it developed after youre done shooting.
mfogiel
Veteran
A good rule, is to keep all films in the freezer, unthaw an hour or more before shooting, and put back into the freezer after exposing if you do not develop promptly.
On average, high speed films will be more sensitive to heat and delays, but there are exceptions, like Pan F which seems to be particularly fond of quick development routine.
I haven't got a lot of experience with colour film, but I imagine it will also be more prone to decay than silver B&W.
On average, high speed films will be more sensitive to heat and delays, but there are exceptions, like Pan F which seems to be particularly fond of quick development routine.
I haven't got a lot of experience with colour film, but I imagine it will also be more prone to decay than silver B&W.
Finglas
Established
No chance of the film ever getting "hot" in Ireland.
I find it takes me about 3 weeks typically get through one roll of 36 exp film.
Maybe another week or two before I'm get into town to have it developed.
This is true too when abroad, I usually bring all the film back to Dublin for D&P
but that was in good old days of Reala 100 asa, and Sensia 100 slides.
But many thanks for your reply, it kind of gels with me - not to over-think it and not to worry either.
I find it takes me about 3 weeks typically get through one roll of 36 exp film.
Maybe another week or two before I'm get into town to have it developed.
This is true too when abroad, I usually bring all the film back to Dublin for D&P
but that was in good old days of Reala 100 asa, and Sensia 100 slides.
But many thanks for your reply, it kind of gels with me - not to over-think it and not to worry either.
Dwig
Well-known
Slightly inaccurate.
What you or the general population consider a "professional" film has absolutely nothing to do with this topic. The "Professional" involved is only the word used in the product name of some Kodak brand color films and of a few films by a few other manufacturers that followed Kodak's lead.
All films age and shift characteristics minute by minute. When they are first manufactured they deliver horrid results. They are aged to reach the desired state for releasing them for use. Some tolerance range is chosen by the manufacturer as to what variance in various characteristics are acceptable. The films are released from aging when they reach one side of the tolerance range and the expiration date is marked to indicate the predicted date when they will reach the other side of the tolerance range.
With most films, this tolerance range is established based on general use standards and assumes storage at room temperature. Several decades ago, Kodak started marketing a line of "Professional" versions of several of their color films. They were, at least initially, identical to the standard versions. The only difference was that the tolerance range was smaller and the expiration dating was set based on refrigerated storage rather than room temperature.
Kodak had found that some pro's that consumed large quantities of film were in the habit of purchasing a quantity of film of a single emulsion number and testing one roll at a time until the batch had aged to their definition of "prefection". They would then refrigerate or freeze the batch and begin using it for real work. Kodak decided to offer their "Professional" versions to eliminate the need for this type of personal aging and testing thus making the tighter tolerance film available to users of smaller quantities.
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
Just a thought: does anyone think that, with the much smaller market, the manufacturers that remain will be looking more carefully at emulsion stabilisation? Otherwise, they'll have to cut their product lists still further, to justify the production runs.
Way back in the 1950s, Agfa and Ilford were both looking at extending shelf life, according to magazine articles published at the time. I imagine that Kodak and the others would have been doing the same. I think that it would be both interesting and informative to compare the stability of emulsions from that period to the stability of emulsions in the 'sixties and later.
Way back in the 1950s, Agfa and Ilford were both looking at extending shelf life, according to magazine articles published at the time. I imagine that Kodak and the others would have been doing the same. I think that it would be both interesting and informative to compare the stability of emulsions from that period to the stability of emulsions in the 'sixties and later.
Finglas
Established
Dwig, thank you, I like what you write - it resonates.
Gumby
Veteran
Chemistry and physics has not changed in quite a while. The "old" advise is just as good today as it was then. But that advise does have some margin of error so you probably know that breaking any of those rules does not necessarily mean that there will be a SIGNIFICANT, NOTICABLE or FUNCTIONAL failure. (Note: Emphasis used because someone will invariably reply - or already have stated - that there is a probability of such failure or failure is assured at a microscopic level.)
Steve M.
Veteran
About the only difference between "pro" film and "consumer" film is that the pro stuff was kept refrigerated, so you could expect consistent results from roll to roll.
Actually, there's a TON of great film emulsions today, and many of them are really good. People grouse about the new Tri-X being not like the old Tri-X, but it's a fantastic film w/ beautiful tonality and deep, deep blacks. Very forgiving to shoot. Have you looked at the Freestyle website? Lots of B&W film for sale, lots of different developers, etc. Film is alive and well. I mean, Kodak introduced D76 developer in 1927!, and it's still a top seller and the best developer you can buy for Tri-X. Film is just not at Walmart or the corner store anymore. Even KEH sells film now, which makes sense. Most of their sales are of film cameras, so you may as well sell people film to go with their camera while you have them at your website or on the phone. Smart move.
Actually, there's a TON of great film emulsions today, and many of them are really good. People grouse about the new Tri-X being not like the old Tri-X, but it's a fantastic film w/ beautiful tonality and deep, deep blacks. Very forgiving to shoot. Have you looked at the Freestyle website? Lots of B&W film for sale, lots of different developers, etc. Film is alive and well. I mean, Kodak introduced D76 developer in 1927!, and it's still a top seller and the best developer you can buy for Tri-X. Film is just not at Walmart or the corner store anymore. Even KEH sells film now, which makes sense. Most of their sales are of film cameras, so you may as well sell people film to go with their camera while you have them at your website or on the phone. Smart move.
lawrence
Veteran
You know I've read many of times on the web that such-and-such film has the most amazing blacks but I've never understood it! Surely any film can have 'deep, deep blacks' it's just a question of how you print it?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Yes, but then again, you have the disadvantage of knowing what you're talking about. It's like "contrasty" films.
Cheers,
R.
Moto-Uno
Moto-Uno
^ Always puts a smile on my face ! Thanks Roger. Peter
Frank Petronio
Well-known
Professional film was sold by professional dealers who kept it refrigerated. Consumer film was stored at room temp at a common retail store.
Kind of a moot point now that we buy it by mail order and it can sit in a truck for a week in mid-summer. And also that Kodak no longer sells slide film, which has always been more sensitive than negative.
Kind of a moot point now that we buy it by mail order and it can sit in a truck for a week in mid-summer. And also that Kodak no longer sells slide film, which has always been more sensitive than negative.
Turtle
Veteran
Hmmm, deep blacks..... Unexposed film has deep blacks 
As Roger says, understanding allows a person to recognise hot air
My 2c is that you are completely and utterly wasting your time worrying about storage if your film is being held inside normal room temperature ranges and used within, say, six months (i.e. well within the stamped expiry).
If you live somewhere very hot, or store film for long periods somewhere fairly hot, refrigeration makes sense. Anything else, you are wasting brain waves you could be directing elsewhere.
Mfogiel has hit a very specific nail on the head, however. Pan F absolutely should be developed immediately. Don't wait a month as the latent image stability is absolutely awful with this film. Take two films, expose both together the same way and develop one the same day and another a few months later and you would think the delayed film was a stop or more underexposed. TriX and other 'regular' films are amazingly stable.
Far more important than shelf life and storage for unexposed film is the delay between exposure and development. The former only impacts base fog etc, which one prints through as an 'inconvenience' in most cases.
As Roger says, understanding allows a person to recognise hot air My 2c is that you are completely and utterly wasting your time worrying about storage if your film is being held inside normal room temperature ranges and used within, say, six months (i.e. well within the stamped expiry).
If you live somewhere very hot, or store film for long periods somewhere fairly hot, refrigeration makes sense. Anything else, you are wasting brain waves you could be directing elsewhere.
Mfogiel has hit a very specific nail on the head, however. Pan F absolutely should be developed immediately. Don't wait a month as the latent image stability is absolutely awful with this film. Take two films, expose both together the same way and develop one the same day and another a few months later and you would think the delayed film was a stop or more underexposed. TriX and other 'regular' films are amazingly stable.
Far more important than shelf life and storage for unexposed film is the delay between exposure and development. The former only impacts base fog etc, which one prints through as an 'inconvenience' in most cases.
Pioneer
Veteran
I tend to buy from Freestyle most of the time. They are close enough that it arrives on my doorstep in no more than two days. That being said though I can't say for sure that Freestyle keeps it refrigerated before shipping to me (or anyone else) or not.
JPSuisse
Well-known
I have never noticed any deterioration of film!
Once I developed a role of Agfa color film 8 years after I shot it and it looked fine! (I think it was ISO 200.) Last week I developed a role of Tri-X that was 3 years over and not in the fridge. Came out fine.
The only exception for me is Pan F, which I do develop immediately.
I agree with the opinion above that within reason it is a waste of brain power worrying too much about this. I do normally store film in the fridge but never "worry" about it...
Once I developed a role of Agfa color film 8 years after I shot it and it looked fine! (I think it was ISO 200.) Last week I developed a role of Tri-X that was 3 years over and not in the fridge. Came out fine.
The only exception for me is Pan F, which I do develop immediately.
I agree with the opinion above that within reason it is a waste of brain power worrying too much about this. I do normally store film in the fridge but never "worry" about it...
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
I highly recommend not to read commentators and books in terms of any product storage and use. The rule of "RTFM first" is still applicable in this case.
noisycheese
Normal(ish) Human
Which is why from now through about the end of March or the middle of April is the time of year to stock up on film.
It can get pretty damn hot here in "flyover land" from May through September; if I have to buy a batch of film during those months, I will order it shipped by 2nd day air.
Ronald M
Veteran
A perfect answer from someone who has been this at for a long time, decades to have witnessed this.
I treat all films as pro, buy, load to cassette, keep frozen in sealed container, thaw just before use. 50+ years of doing it.
De_Corday
Eternal Student
I have been running through a bunch of 8-years-past Tri-X that a pal gave to me. He never refrigerated it. It's a *very* little bit grainer than new, and the odd roll has some very reasonable fogging, and I tried to push one roll and that came out way fogged. Other than that, all good. I *did* put it all in the freezer when I got it, but just out of habit.