Kiev 6

[Hamster]

Got nothing to do for the last 2 hours at work on a friday afternoon, so I present you with the following challenge:

If you were put in charge of Arsenal factory and its tooling, how would you design the Kiev 6 System to compete with modern offerings from Japan and Germany? What would be a modern camera with Ukrainian/Russian characteristics given all the technical know how the FSU have accumulated over the years? A camera system that will do justice to an political entity that have put the first man in space and are still in many ways a engineering superpower. And let's not forget the rich artistic heritage of the FSU.

 

[darkkavenger]

I'd have them to serially produce the magnificent Kiev-TTL prototype.

 

[arothaus]

I'd have them to serially produce the magnificent Kiev-TTL prototype.

There is a Kiev TTL Rangefinder? The only TTL Rangefinder from the FSU I know is the FED-6 prototype.

Andreas

 

[darkkavenger]

Andreas, one of our members sent me some photos of this prototype designed in the 60s, I think unfortunately that it is a unique camera and who knows where it is now. Let's hope the member (I think it was wlewisii) will see this thread 🙂

The camera was wonderful, with perfect lines, a proud heir of the Contax-II.

 

[varjag]

I'd like 4A with 1x magnification finder 🙂

 

[arothaus]

Max, can you send me the pictures?

andreasrothaus(at)web(dot)de

Andreas

 

[Spyderman]

+ paralax corrected, brighter viewfinder with framelines for 35, 50, 85 (settable via a bessa-like lever)

+ slightly shorter rf base (to enable better grip instead of the "contax-grip" 😀)

+ lever advance

+ some kind of metering by CdS or SPC metering cell (TTL would be nice)

+ metering turn on with slight touch or pressing of shutter release (like minolta x700)

+ if TTL, then the cell should be located so as not to interfere with rear element of Jupiter 12 2.8/35

+ in viewfinder exposure readout (shutter speed) like on Canonet or other compact RFs

+ order about an acre of some nice leatherette from cameraleather 😀

+ order about a boat container of Luigi cases

Offer it with the leatherette covering, luigi case, Helios 1.8/50 for about 300 US$.

 

[darkkavenger]

Andreas : they're stored in a PST Outlook archive, I'll have to try bringing the file at work, I've thunderbird now and I can't get the thing back in place. I'll try 🙂

 

[darkkavenger]

Spyderman : I think the Kiev TTL had two TTL cells and they were not interfering with any mounted lens. I have to fetch back the article I was sent, because pretty much all you are asking as improvements were done by the Arsenal engineers.

 

[ruben]

Got nothing to do for the last 2 hours at work on a friday afternoon, so I present you with the following challenge:

If you were put in charge of Arsenal factory and its tooling, how would you design the Kiev 6 System to compete with modern offerings from Japan and Germany? What would be a modern camera with Ukrainian/Russian characteristics given all the technical know how the FSU have accumulated over the years? A camera system that will do justice to an political entity that have put the first man in space and are still in many ways a engineering superpower. And let's not forget the rich artistic heritage of the FSU.

Hi Hamster,

First it is a good exercise and later we may post the whole thread to Arsenal factory.

Secondly, my choice as General Manager of Arsenal would be to resign, out of deep respect towards Photography, as Mr Kobayashi has already taken the niche. (After asking him for ways of collaboration with his projects.)
But I would not leave Arsenal, but take instead a minor job of overseeing CLA upgraded services to already produced Kievs, and spare a good time to chat at RFF.

The later I have already accomplished, without even traveling to Ukraine.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[VinceC]

A serious product today would have to digital.

 

[varjag]

I've been at Arsenal a month ago, visited their store and talked to people. The plant is nearly dead now.

Got a new Kiev-35A for $20 there though. QC stamp says 2006, but the camera was probably made years ago.

 

[VinceC]

When the Soviet era ended, Kiev seemed to have bet its emerging entrepeneurial fortunes on its fairly well-regarded medium format line. They also had a hit with the ultra-hip Lomo, but how much profit can you make off of the world's cheapest camera? I image digital has completely eroded both markets. They've got the lenses and inexpensive labor, but it would probably take a fairly serious investment of cash to get them revived for new designs and approaches.

They bet the house on medium format. Today, if I had their tooling and workforce, I'd bet the house on a digital lineup that shared as much electronic technology as possible between an affordable DSLR and affordable RF. The RF should use an LTM body as its base but with a robust adapter to convert it to Kiev/Contax.

 

[varjag]

Vince, LKA was made by LOMO, Leningrad (St. Petersburg).

I think Arsenal still produces certain (not big) amount of medium format gear, but sells Nikon F mount cameras and Kiev-35A from the old stock. They also still do their main line of production, defense contracts (as the name suggests). But I don't think they have enough dough or willing investors to pull out a digital product out of the blue.

 

[VinceC]

varjag,
Thanks for the LOMO info.
If their main production is defense contracts, I think there's probably not much momentum for them to do anything with their photo products but let them gradually die. You can only keep building obsolete cameras for so long. There simply isn't a sustainable market for new film products because you're competing with top-of-the-line used gear.

I do think there's a market for a digital camera with a classic interface. But you have to approach it as the niche it is. It's not going to make anyone rich or put dinner on too many workers' tables.

 

[rxmd]

I think Arsenal still produces certain (not big) amount of medium format gear, but sells Nikon F mount cameras and Kiev-35A from the old stock.

They are still "producing" medium format cameras from overstock parts. Virtually no quality control is being performed. You can walk into an univermag in Kiev and buy a factory new K-88CM, only to find that it is nonfunctional and incomplete.

Kiev cameras are dead. Seeing how even the K-90 was too complex for Arsenal, I don't think any convincing product is to be expected there.

It's not surprising that the most interesting FSU consumer products appeared in the 60s. Back then the economic policy was to focus on consumer goods (the first television sets, audio tape recorders and so on appeared during that time, too). Under Brezhnev, in the late 60s and early 70s there was a general shift towards heavy and military industries and towards investment goods, so that little money and development capacity were left for innovation in the consumer fields. In high-tech industries such as photographic equipment, this meant very little innovative products (such as the Zorki-10 camera or the Helios-103 lens), which themselves were often derived from military applications (such as the Russar MR-2 wideangle or the Zodiak-8 fisheye). You can see the same thing in other industries, too, such as automotive. I think this only shifted in the mid-80s, but then the Soviet Union was practically broke and it was already too late, especially regarding electronics.

Philipp

 

[Will]

Rebadge Bessa R2C with 1:1 RF, assembled in Kiev

Optics from Schneider (to rival Zeiss), Manufactured by Cosina, assembled in Kiev

 

[claidemore]

If I was manager at Arsenal?
1- Do a market survey to find out what (if any) products that can be made with existing tooling might be successful and generate some cash flow with that. (meterless Kiev rangefinder?)
2-re-design the Kiev 88 and do away with the troublesome shutter speed/ film wind so shutter speed can be adjusted before or after film is wound. (put film wind on one side of camera, shutter speed selection on other side? )
3-get the rights to use the Contax name on rangefinders
4- design and produce a new (but simple!) Contax/Kiev rangefinder with accurate and simple to use metering, auto exposure, ratchet film wind, hinged back etc.
5- improve quality control (this should probably be #1 on the list)
6- do an aggressive marketing campaign touting the reliability, simplicity, and history of these products.
7- find a company to make digital MF bodies that use Arsenal lenses. Someone should be able to design a 'new' MF digital camera that is not a re-design of a film camera.

 

[Will]

find a company to make digital MF bodies that use Arsenal lenses. Someone should be able to design a 'new' MF digital camera that is not a re-design of a film camera.

Kiev 60 TTL with 16~22MP sensor?

 

[Ash]

Bet the factory on the horses.

If your luck is in, you'll make a small fortune, and then have the money to consider redevelopment.