Kiev 88

[EcoLeica]

Hey there people....im wanting to start out in medium format work. Anyone tried those wonderful looking Kiev 88s? Being a student i could never afford something flash, but for around $400 NZ on ebay, these cameras seem to be a good deal. Anyone have any problems with them? Cheers

 

[rxmd]

I've got one Kiev 88, 1985 model, original shutter, and later had a CLA done and a Pentacon Six mount put in by Arax in the Ukraine. It's a fine camera. I also have a friend who has three Kiev 88s, 1984 to 1989 models, original shutter, that have given him all sorts of trouble. They are unreliable cameras. Maybe not every single one of them is unreliable, mine certainly isn't, but as a camera brand they certainly are. You never know what you get until you shoot with it for half a year, and then even if everything works fine you buy a bad back and it breaks your film winding mechanism. It's a fine camera (well, mine is) with remarkable lenses such as the Carl Zeiss Jena lenses designed for the Pentacon Six - that will work only on Kiev 88CMs (and on standard Kiev 88s with a modified lens mount) - I wouldn't want to part with mine, a Sonnar 180/f2.8 and a MC Flektogon 50/f4 - but it's not good for trying out things IMHO. I think if you want to start in medium format don't start with the Kiev 88, because as a system camera it will require all sorts of followup investments from accessories to CLAs and repairs. "Anyone have a problem with them" - well, lots of people have, actually. The camera isn't as bad as it's made out to be, but it isn't as good either as it's made out to be by fans.

If you want a very cheap interchangeable lens camera, get a Kiev 60 instead, they are a lot more reliable and cheaper, too (here they go for under 100 EUR on eBay), and they take cheap and excellent Carl Zeiss Jena lenses in Pentacon Six mount. If you insist on a "cube" type camera, you might have to pay some extra dollars for a used Hasselblad 500, Bronica or Mamiya system but they are quite cheap now, too. If you want to play around with medium format, get a TLR (Minolta Autocord, Ricoh Diacord, Flexaret, Yashica Mat 12 or 124 or so, maybe even a Rolleicord V or Rolleiflex T) for anything between 20 and 300 dollars. Or get a folding camera for little money, I started with a Voigtländer Bessa II.

Philipp

 

[Mark Wood]

If camera shape isn't important, perhaps better than the Kiev 60 is the Pentacon Six which comes in at a slightly higher price (but usually still significantly lower than the Kiev 88). They can have an issue with frame spacing but Pentacon themselves still do an excellent servicing/upgrading job for a sensible price, leaving you with what's basically a new camera. As Philpp says, the CZJ lenses for these cameras really are remarkably good.

 

[Will]

If camera shape isn't important, perhaps better than the Kiev 60 is the Pentacon Six which comes in at a slightly higher price (but usually still significantly lower than the Kiev 88). They can have an issue with frame spacing but Pentacon themselves still do an excellent servicing/upgrading job for a sensible price, leaving you with what's basically a new camera. As Philpp says, the CZJ lenses for these cameras really are remarkably good.

mount the film really tight, and you will be ok.

also, make sure both spoons resting on the bottom, this is important..

 

[wongyboi]

I have one myself.

$250 AUS on Ebay

Was a bargain and I havent seen any come up lately either.

The newer CM models are somewhat reliable but if your buying the older Kiev88s there are some problems with quality. Initially when I cocked the shutter it was quite stiff but over time it loosened.

- Light leaks may be a problem, I recently developed some shots and there were one slightly noticeable patch on the lower left hand corner. Looking at the kiev88 I can see why that if there were ever to be any leaks it would be in this area just behind the metal plate. But it would depend on your camera.

- The camera is quite heavy especially with the prism on

- One of my film backs is quite figgity, loading the film into the slot in the back may cause some problems but mine was easily fixed, one of the knobs was slightly bent backwards causing it to not sit inside the back properly.

- Another concern is the film plate, some people i've heard say that the film doesnt sit flat on the plate which causes soft pictures but the edges are sharp. This isnt the case with mine, I get some sharp results (using the Volna 80mm).

Having said all of that I do like the camera, it may causefew problems but if you get a decent one for a good price then its worth having but there are alternatives to MF. (I've seen some lovely Agfa Silloette III shots in the RFF Gallery).

I would love to have the Sonnar 180 (But I dont know how to adapt it)

 

[rxmd]

The newer CM models are somewhat reliable but if your buying the older Kiev88s there are some problems with quality.

Another interesting thing about the Kiev 88 is that not the opinions are so different. Some people say that quality control was best during the early Soviet period, while since 1991 or so they are mainly producing junk. Well, I guess it boils down to the observation that any given body either works or does not work, and that it is not worthwhile to draw conclusions from the year of production.

What is true, according to Gevorg Vartanyan, is that the Kiev 88CMs you buy from the factory now don't get any quality control at all before leaving the factory. If you want to buy a new one, it's best to buy a new one from a reseller that does quality control and upgrading.

perhaps better than the Kiev 60 is the Pentacon Six which comes in at a slightly higher price (but usually still significantly lower than the Kiev 88)

Again, this is subject to some debate. There is at least one user on German usenet who swears that his K60 is more reliable than any Pentacon Sixes he ever had (http://www.fotoralf.de/k60.htm, a good page BTW). It is also true that while the Pentacon Six was made in Germany, it's mechanism is a lot more complex, and Pentacon service doesn't necessarily have a good reputation for actually resolving problems in the Pentacon Six cameras they accept for repair. Baier Foto (http://www.baierfoto.de) is a lot better in this respect; for a CLA and an improved transport mechanism they charge 190 EUR, which is reasonable but still a lot of money and probably on a similar order of magnitude as the same complete service at Pentacon. Then again, the K60 with its simpler mechanism is probably less error-prone to begin with, and it's also plainly a much newer camera than the Pentacon Six.

Philipp

 

[Daniel Unkefer]

I have a Hartblei 1006 body, which I bought from Mike Fourman in Atlanta. It's been a good camera, and it is compatable with my Hasselblad film backs. Often I take Blad and Hartblei bodies out, and change the filmback back and forth. That's a nice benefit, for me. The bodies can be good, alot of them develop problems. My first K88 suffered a jammed shutter while I was attempting to modify a Hasselblad back to fit it. Ending up selling it for parts, the second one has been a keeper!

 

[Max Power]

FWIW, I was very close to getting an ARAX 60, when I opted for a Mamiya M645 1000S instead.

I had very few doubts about the quality of the ARAX 60, but the format and quality of the M645 is what won me out. I don't know what the state of the used market is where you live, but I got a good deal on my kit, and goodness knows that there are a lot of them on eBay.

By his own admission, the owner of ARAX himself admits that the K88 is a fussy camera...My understanding is that his are the best.

Just my $0.02

Kent

 

[rbiemer]

I used (and still do, occasionally) a TLR for a long while and really liked it. When I wanted some more lens choices, I started seeing what was available that I could afford. Used medium format bodies were/are going cheap so that didn't help me pick one. Lenses, on the other hand, were still pricey, even used, for Hassleblad, Mamiya, and Bronica.
I ended up looking at the Kiev cameras--88 and 60--because of the lenses that are available and, frankly, because I didn't have a ton of $ to spend.
Ultimately I bought an ARAX modified Kiev 60. I chose the 60 over the 88 mainly because it is a simpler camera. Since I didn't need changeable backs, I figured the extra complication wasn't worth the potential for trouble the backs would add.
I chose to deal with ARAX(Gevorg Vartanyan) for a couple of reasons: First, admittedly, his prices were much better than either of the US dealers. Secondly, he was unfalingly helpful and polite when answering the many questions I pestered himw with over the 11 months it took me to save the $ for what I settled on as my kit. And he has been so since then as well.
Bottom line: If you want either the K-88 or the K-60, in my opinion ARAX is who to buy one from.
There is a page of links at the ARAX site that is very useful:
http://www.araxphoto.com/links/
One thing I would change about my lens line up: I got the MIR-26 (45mm wide angle) and have not been happy with it. I think the 50mm Flektagon is probably the better choice in that range.
Rob

 

[Mark Wood]

If anyone's interested, this is a link to an excellent web site that covers the Pentacon Six and Kiev 60 and shows comparisons of the CZJ and FSU lenses.

http://www.pentaconsix.com/

There are also plenty of links to other related sites.
I can definitely support Rob's comments on the Mir 45 mm vs Flektagon 50 mm issue. I've used both and although my version of the Mir is pretty sharp, it does have noticeable barrel distortion. The stop down isn't totally convincing either. The Flektagon is just superb and I've only tried the single-coated version. When looking for these Flektagons, you'll find that many of them seem to have hundreds of tiny white specs behind the fromt element. As far as I can see, they don't affect picture quality at all but I'd be intrigued to know what they are. My guess is some deterioration of paint behind this element but that really is only a guess.

 

[comp_wiz101]

I've had a Kiev 88 from Oleg ($167USD) from 1988. So far, the shutter has been reliable, and I did find one problem with it.... I fixed a light leak in the dark slide seal in the back. Of course, this had more to do with the fact that the seal was old than it was defective. It's a lot smaller than my Rollei SLX, so it's much easier to carry.

 

[JonP]

OK, not Russian, but have you considered a Bronica, now discontinued, so you can pick them up dirt cheap, even new.

 

[rxmd]

I can definitely support Rob's comments on the Mir 45 mm vs Flektagon 50 mm issue. I've used both and although my version of the Mir is pretty sharp, it does have noticeable barrel distortion. The stop down isn't totally convincing either. The Flektagon is just superb and I've only tried the single-coated version.

Actually the Mir-26B 45/f3.5 lens has a bad reputation that it doesn't really deserve. There are a lot of bad specimens, but if you get a good one it's give and take with the Flektogon performancewise. The Flektogon is outstanding in the center, but mediocre in the corners. See the Mother of Lens Tests (http://www.rickdenney.com/mother_lens_test.htm) for substantially more data from a large-scale lens test of Kiev and Pentacon Six lenses.

Philipp

 

[Mister_Hat]

Taking your thread off in another direction... you may want to consider the Iskra. Granted, no interchangeable lenses, but the one it has is excellent, very compact and easier to carry. And a lot cheaper.

Oh, and it's a rangefinder... always a plus.

 

[phototone]

Please note, the Hartblei modification is the ONLY Kiev that will accept Hasselblad backs and this model of Kiev has been discontinued. The Current factory made Kiev 88 will not fit Hasselblad backs, however the "new style" Kiev back is quite nice and works well, and the Kiev 88 is a very nice camera. Older Kiev cameras had a unique lens mount, but the current Kiev 88 uses the Pentacon 6 lens mount, which is shared with the Kiev 60, and Pentacon 6 cameras, and this makes quite a few lenses available, including former East German Zeiss, West German Scneider as well as the Ukraine lenses made for the Kiev cameras. The east german Zeiss 50mm Flektogon and the east german Zeiss 180mm Olympic Sonnar are world class lenses available used in Pentacon6 mount. They were made until the unification of Germany, so they are available in Multicoated versions.

 

[rbiemer]

Actually the Mir-26B 45/f3.5 lens has a bad reputation that it doesn't really deserve. There are a lot of bad specimens, but if you get a good one it's give and take with the Flektogon performancewise. The Flektogon is outstanding in the center, but mediocre in the corners. See the Mother of Lens Tests (http://www.rickdenney.com/mother_lens_test.htm) for substantially more data from a large-scale lens test of Kiev and Pentacon Six lenses.

Philipp

Fair enough, Phillip. I hope I wasn't bad mouthing all of them, just the one I own. In fact the other lenses I got with the 60 are pretty dern good(at least--and a couple of them are wonderful!). The 30mm Arsat is one of my favorite lenses! And I'm going to be adding a Kaleinar 150 to my line up--I want a "portrait" lens.
And thanks for the link to Rick Denny's lens tests! I'd not seen that before. Much appreciated.

Mark, I certainly wouldn't dismiss the Pentacon, it just wasn't what I ended up with. The site you linked to is part of the "links page" at ARAX; I figured one page of links(most, if not all, of the good ones and each of those pages have their own link page...) would be a good place to start for someone new to these.
Rob

 

[suckerpunch]

i owned a kiev 88 before i purchased a hasselblad. the film spacing on the back was inconsistent. i had overlap, and overly spacious spaces. and when the copper curtain jammed on me, i found a fella here that worked on fsu equipment, and spent $300 to have everything overhauled. i think i spent $300us for the outfit, so $600 into it, i sold it and got a hasselblad. havent looked back since. if you want medium format, i would recommend getting something a little cheaper, until you can save up for the one you want...

 

[Jar]

I satisfied by my old K88, but i was select between a few ones with one's own hand. I think e-bay buying is lottery. There are some concealed and non-obvious problems wits this camera. Some of them you can discover only by exploitation with film (illuminated backs, sealing diaphragm, film transportation mistakes, internal blinks, screen displacement etc...)

I think that a new Arax may be more interesting (if you need camera efficiency warranty).

 

[kvanderlaag]

I'm really tempted by a Salyut-C. I've heard good things about them.

Most of my friends reccomend the Kiev 88 if you don't need something totally reliable, and just want a 6x6 system camera to explore with.