Leica IIIc Questions

[Mark A. Fisher]

A friend of mine has a IIIc that he purchased some time ago, and has expressed some interest in trading it for one of my DLSR lenses. But, I don't know a thing about Leicas, other than I've wanted one for a very long time! I currently have several other rangefinders - Kiev, Ricoh, Yashica, and Canon, as well as a Mamiya 7II - but know nothing of the value of Leicas and the accompanying myriad lenses.

So, could someone shed a bit of light on this equipment and its value? The camera is a 1949/50 model IIIc (from Gandy's listings online), with a serial number of 4923xx. The accompanying lens is a Summaron 35mm f3.5, serial number 7673xx.

I have only seen the camera briefly, without a chance to really evaluate condition - he says there is some "pitting" on the metal of the body - other than to say the leather (?) covering seems to be in good condition and there doesn't appear to be any hazing, fog, or dust in the lens.

What value might these items hold separately, would this be a good kit to use to dip my toe in the Leica pool, and what is a typical CLA cost for these items? Also, who might be a good person to send these to for a CLA, if I can get the deal done?

I have looked on the classifieds here for a range of prices, have read as many of the Leica posts as I can find regarding the subject, and have come up with my own estimate of maybe $200-250 for the body and another $200-250 for the lens. Am I way off in my estimates?

Thanks in advance for your assistance, and I hope I haven't offended the Leica gods by posting this in the wrong area!

Best,

Mark A. Fisher

 

[Nikon Bob]

I don't know much about values but can tell you that some pitting on the chrome is not uncommon for post WWII IIIc cameras.

Bob

 

[Brian Legge]

I'd suggest searching ebay for successfully completed auctions as it can give you a sense of it. That could help get a sense of quality -> price differences. These pages are also a good resources:

http://www.antiquecameras.net/leicascrewcameras.html
http://www.antiquecameras.net/leicascrewlenses.html

 

[Mark A. Fisher]

Thanks Guys!

I checked out the $$$ on the sites Brian suggested, and I might be in the general ballpark value-wise; and I have seen similar pitting on some other rangefinders of that vintage, so I'm not too concerned about that. I'm still curious, though, about the cost of a CLA. I have seen various names bandied about - D.A.G., Youzin (Youxin?), etc - but if you know of others as well I'd appreciate hearing about them, as well.

I think I'm going to suggest to my buddy that this camera is something he might want to hang on to, and I'll try to find another one here at RFF or in my wanderings around town.

Thanks again,

Mark

 

[Toccata]

If your friend is local, you might be best served by borrowing the Leica and taking it out for a test spin. I've just picked up a iiic and summitar and I don't see myself setting it down for quite a while. But a barnack while certainly not be to everyones taste. Being able to try before you buy is a big asset.

The bodys vary from 180-500, depending on condition. More typically they sell for 250-300 with a take up spool.

There's a very wild and wide range for the lenses recently. In just the last year or so prices have very steadily increased and it's hard to find anything worth buying for less then 300. A summaron just sold here for around 500.

I haven't yet had my iiic serviced, but from what I've read I'm expecting to pay around 150 for the body and 100 for the lens. Not sure if this is accurate.

If I was in your shoes I would grab the leica and dump the dslr lens. It's liberating to carry such a compact kit and the quality is better then anything I've done with digital. It's also a helluva lot more fun to shoot!

 

[peter_n]

I tried out a IIIc a few years ago and had it checked out by Youxin Ye. He replaced the curtains and beam-splitter for $150 as I recall and did a great job. Plus I got free advice on what were the best Barnacks to buy. As it turned out I didn't really like using the camera and sold it on but I think you should still budget around $150 in case of issues. Those bodies are getting pretty old.

 

[Mark A. Fisher]

It's amazing to me the depth and breadth of knowledge on RFF! I knew if I posted some questions the answers (correct ones!) would be forthcoming shortly!

As it turns out I think my friend is going to hold on to the Leica, so I'll have to check the Classifieds here to see what I might find.


But as far as the answers go, I appreciate all feedback. I have a pretty good handle now on the value of that particular lens and body, but it still is a challenge to find out the best setup for the best price! But with your help it's getting easier, and I really appreciate it!

Another question has cropped up. What does the designation "Barnack" mean, in terms of overall quality, style, expense, etc? I know that Oskar Barnack is the creator of the Leica, having first created the prototype in 1913, and that the Leica first came to production in 1924/25, but is there a specific model known as the Barnack? Or is this just a more vernacular term directed to earlier models?

And, since I'm proving my Leica ignorance today, is there any advantage between the earlier LTM cameras and the later M mounts - glass, durability, IQ, panache - or is this more a matter of taste? And budget?

Thanks for indulging a Leica novice.

Best,

Mark

 

[wolves3012]

but is there a specific model known as the Barnack? Or is this just a more vernacular term directed to earlier models?

In my understanding, "Barnack" refers to any of the earlier models, the I, II and III (i.e. pre-M), it's the vernacular as you supposed.

And, since I'm proving my Leica ignorance today, is there any advantage between the earlier LTM cameras and the later M mounts - glass, durability, IQ, panache - or is this more a matter of taste? And budget?

Correct again. The M models are more modern, bayonet mount, easier to load (?) etc. A Barnack isn't everyone's taste but if you like them you do, end of. They have a simplicity and minimalism appeal, a wide choice of glass and they're far more affordable.

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

Barnack vs M's

The view-finders of the earlier ones, the screw in lens versions, are generally a pita and - depending on the model - the RF eyepiece is either beside it or an inch away from it. The M's have brilliant VF's and the RF's "sight" appears in the centre. Early M's had simpler VF with just 3 or 4 frame-lines appearing.

Both the screw and bayonet ones need separate meters until you get to the M5 onwards. Many like the M5 and its baby brother the CL. Others ignore it for no reason that I can see or understand.

Lenses for them all overlap for a period then the M's pull away into the fast lane (and prices go into the stratosphere).

With the screw ones you've a choice of simplicity (the model II's) or complications with the front slow speed shutter dial; meaning the III's. Few have flash sync and those that do have it in some really silly places - as added by any one with a soldering iron and a drill...

With the M's there's the older first series which I'd call the M2, M3 and M4 and then the moderner M6 and M7's. You need to do your research carefully here.

Lenses vary from dirt cheap (5cm Elmar) to incredibly expensive with bargains in the middle. I'd nominate the Summitar of the 40's as the bargain, as it's properly coated and almost a Summicron. The Elmar is a perfectly practical lens even today.

Don't think it easy to use a screw thread camera with several lenses, as you need to change view-finders with the lenses, and then there's metering to worry about, and carrying them around as modern cases and bags are not designed for Barnack's babies.

I hope this is some use. Barnacks are great fun but slow; M's are great fun and easier to work with.

Regards, David

 

[Mark A. Fisher]

I am quite grateful to be receiving such a thorough education on the basics of the Leica! And Mr. Hughes, thank you for the clarification/expansion on the Barnack vs M theme.

My first camera was a rangefinder Ricoh, which I bought used for $20 from a friend about 1972 or so. Still have it, still shoot with it on occasion. I later went for SLR’s, since that seemed to be the “wave of the future”, at least at that time. In the ensuing years I have shot SLR’s, Holgas, toy cameras of every flavor and size, as well as Nikon D100 (cconverted to Infrared), a Nikon 200, and most recently a Nikon D700; and in the past few years have reacquainted myself with rangfinders – a Canon QL17, an Electro 35 G, GSN, GT, a Kiev 4M and most recently a new Mamiya 7II with 43mm and 65mm lenses. I just have never gotten around to exploring a Leica.

Since the IIIc I began this thread with is no longer available to me, I have another acquaintance who has an M6 with 0.58mm viewfinder and some Leica glass for sale. Don’t know a thing about any of them yet, since I’ve not seen them, but from Mr. Hughes explanation it seems to me the M versions will probably suit my needs better than a Barnack. I understand the Kiev 4M is a rough Russian translation of the early Leica, and from my experience with it there is a great deal of fun to be derived from a $40 camera, but it does seem a bit “clunky” sometimes.

Again, I thank all of you for your continued tutelage, and hope to someday post some Leica images!

Just gotta find the right one at the right price…I'm certain that is an easy task (wink, wink!)

Mark

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

In your shoes I'd grab the M6 and lenses. You can always sell lenses you don't like or need. Try and borrow it/them for a weekend and put some film through it.

More to the point you'll get a camera with the contemporary lenses and a known history; or at least, you ought to...

The camera ought to feel right and be silky smooth in action, btw. Look carefully around the view-finder whilst looking through it and do the same for the RF. Don't worry about minor problems (or - perhaps - major ones) as they are tough old cameras and easily repaired by several excellent repairers.

My M2 deteriorated slowly and little by little I wondered about it. Finally I got it completely checked over, stripped down etc, etc. The result was an eye-opener and I hadn't thought there was anything wrong with it, much.

I'll wish you luck.

Regards, David

PS The cheapo RF to go for is the Leica II lookalike, meaning the FED or Zorki 1 (best with the Leica shutter guard but that's only a matter of looks). They are cheap to buy and cheap to get completely overhauled if you go to Oleg (about US $48 last time). Once done they act just like a Leica II and have the advantage of a coated lens like the old 5cm Elmar. This is seldom a popular opinion...

 

[Toccata]

The m6 is fine but if the local sale doesn't go through consider an m5 or zeiss ikon, as well.

 

[Mark A. Fisher]

I had hoped to be able to play with the M6 this weekend, and made plans to pick up from the owner. But, I've had a bit of bad luck with my Epson 4880, to the tune of about $700, and my Cooper S needs new brakes, so I guess I'm going to remain on the "put-it-off-til-the-wallet-refills" plan.

But with that additional time I can do some research about an m5 and a zeiss ikon!

Thanks to all; if ever I become the owner of one of these, I'll let you know. For now I'll have to muddle along with my 7II! Love those lenses!

mark

 

[Mark A. Fisher]

Good Morning!

It's time to provide an update.

After further thought, my buddy decided that maybe a trade would be a good thing for all concerned, so yesterday we met for a day of shooting on the road, and made the swap!

I ended up with a 1949/50 Leica IIIc and a Summaron F3.5 35mm lens, and Kenny ended up with a 15-30mm Sigma W/A for his Nikon system. He's happy, I'm happy, and pretty soon Youxhin Ye will be happy, too! (I hope) I'm going to contact him and send the newly acquire equipment to him for a CLA and any other work required to get this in to good shooting order, then I'll run some film thru and see if the smile stays on my face. The camera seems to be in pretty fair shape - a bit of pitting on the top plate - as does the lens. The only real issue is the f/stop ring is quite stiff, probably due to old lubricants, I think. The glass is clear, no scratches, no hazing or fungus that I can see, and I believe it should serve me quite well as my first Leica glass.

Still have my eye on that M6 TTL with the .58mm viewfinder, but for right now I'm going to content myself with the IIIc.

I've been shooting primarily B/W film for the last 30 years or so - almost exclusively Tri-X - and would be interested to know if there are any B/W films that might inherently be better - in your opinion - for use in the older body and lens.

Thanks again for everyone's help in getting me to this point. Perhaps I'll even have an image or two to post eventually!

Mark

 

[Bingley]

Congrats! As an owner of a 1949 IIIc, welcome to the club! I sent my IIIc (purchased from a member here a couple of years ago) to Youxin, who replaced the shutter curtains, beamsplitter, and take up spool, and did a full CLA, for around $200, w/ a very quick turnaround. The camera is a joy to use now (assuming you like Barnack Leicas).

You got a classic lens in the 35/3.5 summaron. Maybe have Youxin service that, too? You may want to pick up an auxiliary viewfinder since the finder on the IIIc shows the field of view of 50 mm lens. I'd recommend getting one of the bright Cosina Voigtlander finders, but there are also Leica and Canon finders floating around on the used market. Pick up one of the classic 50s (e.g., an Elmar or a Summitar), and you'll have a delightful, two-lens vintage kit.

BTW, if you want to see very nice work being done today w/ vintage Leica cameras and lenses, check out the flickr pages of Stephane Marco and Eugenio Garcia, much of it shot w/ Tri-X. In addition to Tri-X, I also shoot TMax 100 and TMax 400, particularly for landscapes. Vintage gear and modern film make a great combination. 🙂

 

[batterytypehah!]

I also notice you don't mention a finder. There are plenty more options: The classic, dedicated 35mm finder from Leica (goes by the code SBLOO, pricey) or the universal 35 to 135 (VIOOH or Imarect, affordable). There are also copies of the latter from Japan; I have one that's branded Walz. Another well-regarded universal finder is the Tewe.

If you don't mind a modern look, Olympus has an optical finder for their digital Pen cameras called the VF-1, which is said to be very nice and being current production, is very easy to find.

Avoid the Kodak 35/80 finder. It's a beautiful little thing and quite common, but it's made for Retinas. On a Leica, it will obstruct the speed dial.

 

[Mark A. Fisher]

Thanks to both of you for your input. I guess it didn't occur to me that an external viewer would be needed for this lens, but it makes sense. I have an external viewer for the 43mm on my Mamiya 7ii, but have never really warmed up to using it. I'll have to perhaps reconsider getting a viewer for this one, or to pick up a 50mm instead - an elmar or summitar, as suggested, - and forego the use of the 35mm, at least for now.

I sent an email to Youxin, detailing what I believe to be the current condition of both the body and the lens, and within literally 3 minutes of having sent the message my phone rang! It was Youxin, explaining, in detail, how he typically treats these cameras, the probable expense, the method for shipping, payment etc. He also explained to me that the Summitar f3.5 35mm is the only 35mm lens he does not service. It has to do with the lens elements being cemented together; but, rather than just giving me that info, he also went the extra step to tell me that D.A.G. does work on these lenses, and how much I might expect to be charged by that gentleman!

Talk about instant response! And what a gracious man, as well. I am quite confident in sending the iiic to him, and am doing so tomorrow, as soon as the post office opens!

As previously mentioned, this is my first Leica experience, so I can't say whether I will enjoy the older Barnack version I just bought, or whether I will eventually want to go to an "M" body, but for me it's all part of the process, so I'm just enjoying what I have right now!


It's off to search for a 50mm lens, as well as a VF for the 35!

Thanks again to everyone for the help!

(I think i'll stick with my Tri-X for awhile, 'til something else strikes my fancy.)


Mark

 

[Bingley]

Well, you may not need to have the Summaron serviced right away if the glass is in decent shape. DAG is great, but many around here report long wait times.

Another option in the 50 dep't is a collapsible Summicron. Not too difficult to find (they show up in Classifieds here from time to time). Similar "look" to a Summitar (it's predecessor), but maybe a little sharper wide open. Takes the easy to find 39mm filter size, unlike the Summitar.

 

[FrankS]

I may be wrong on this, but I think that screw mount 50 Summicrons are rarer than the bayonet mount ones, and wouldn't fit on a Barnack. The CV 50 f2.5 is a good screw mount lens to have.

 

[peter_n]

Talk about instant response! And what a gracious man, as well. I am quite confident in sending the iiic to him, and am doing so tomorrow, as soon as the post office opens!

You'll get your camera back from Youxin about two weeks after he receives it, but DAG will take much, much longer. You might want to see if the lens is OK to use before sending it out.