Leica LTM Leica IIIc with Summitar 50 f2 - first roll

[bence8810]

Hello there,

Have acquired a Leica Summitar 50 lens on a local Japanese auction site and it conveniently came with a Leica IIIc camera. The body is pretty beat up but is very clean internally. While I can't quite inspect the speeds as the back doesn't open and my optical meter isn't useful here, I think it's quite alright. I did measure with the iPhone meter "shutter speed" but wasn't able to use the Photoplug with it unfortunately, just the mic based test.

In any event, I have shot a test roll and am looking at the images currently. I am no expert and therefore turning to you for help if you would be so kind.

Attached is the first roll's contact sheet that I scanned in at low res (300dpi) which I do in fact for all my rolls. I'd be very happy to scan some images in from the roll you think could help determine the quality of the lens. I bought this set for the lens only so I could use it on my M3 body. When doing the flashlight test as it is explained by Ken Rockwell, I do see a lot of Fungus in the lens, at least I think it is fungus.

I then opened up the lens as explained by Justin Low and have cleaned the two surfaces I could get to. After assembling, it is still showing quite a fair amount of "something" inside, didn't change for the better or worse as far as I can tell. Tried taking a picture of the lens but I couldn't quite get it while sending the light beam through it. I only have an iPhone in terms of Digital and it couldn't cope with it.

Thanks for any help and please let me know if you'd like me to scan in any of the frames from the roll.

Ben

Link to Image (large-ish)

Above is the link to the image. I have increased the contrast and brightness as I tend to scan flat. If this isn't good, I am happy to change the image in whatever way. The original tiff is flat. I can also scan individual frames if that helps. Really appreciate all the help!

 

[goamules]

The shots look pretty good to me. I'd be fairly happy so far with how it's working.

 

[DKimg]

The shots look pretty good to me. I'd be fairly happy so far with how it's working.

I agree! 🙂

 

[Vics]

I agree as well. As you can see, you need to keep bright lights out of the freme. Quite a bit of flare in a few of the frames.

 

[Dez]

You can't really tell much about the performance of a lens from a contact sheet, beyond the fact mentioned above that there is a tendency to flare, which could well be caused by the fog/dirt/fungus you are seeing in the lens. Lenses of this age will not have the flare resistance of a modern lens even if perfectly clean, so a shade is a really good idea if shooting anywhere towards the light.

Two things about your inspection of the lens...
First, the flashlight test is probably too stringent for an older lens like this. Imperfections in the coatings will show up strongly with this test that have little effect on actual picture taking. Something more realistic in predicting the performance of the lens is to test using one harsh light source in an otherwise dark room. A lamp with its shade removed is a good example. Look through the wide open lens as you pan it across the room past the light source. How much effect do you see in the lens such as reflections, haziness or ghost images before you come to the actual light source? The view should remain dark as much as possible when the light source is not actually visible.

I presume you have separated the two halves of the lens at the aperture. This is where haze usually appears but not always. While it is apart, use the flashlight test to see if the fungus or other problems are in the back half or the front half of the lens. Depending which surface is affected, it may be easy to further disassemble the lens to clean that part.

Good luck!

Cheers,
Dez

 

[bence8810]

Thank you guys, glad it looked ok for a first peak.

@Dez, which frame you'd like me to scan in hi res that might help to tell a bit more about the lens?

The camera is healthy from what I can see, no leaks etc.

I did have the lens apart like I said but I don't remember which part had the fungus in it. I believe it was the front part but just to be sure I'll unscrew it again today to see.

Thanks
Ben

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

FWIW, I'll suggest the second frame (No 2) as it has a lot of detail at the edges and in the centre...

Regards, David

 

[Dez]

I agree with David that #2 looks like a good choice, but it depends on where the focus point was. #3 and #7 might be good choices as well, but you should not rely on judgments based on just a few pictures. The pictures seem to all be interior shots, and maybe the shutter speed was low enough that motion blur may be a problem. If you want to test it, you will need to take a number of shots where there is in-focus detail in the centre and edges of the frame, and a high shutter speed was used. You will probably want to deal with cleaning the lens first though, or you will not get a good idea of the amount of contrast it will produce.

Cheers,
Dez

 

[bence8810]

Thank you both for that!

Here are two images that were scanned previously, for Frame 2 I need to get the scanner ready again so that would come later.

Frame 3

Frame 7

For both of these I did absolutely no PS work and as I naturally scan flat, they are flat!

Usually I scan by taking in all data as I include all (almost) whites and blacks and set the gamma to 1 or near it. Once in PS, I'd increase the contrast by using the Curve tool and if Expo wasn't right I'd play with that and brightness. Again, for these test shots, I did nothing. You can also see on one frame at the top that the wetting agent didn't work as it should have and left a soapy mark. Still lots to learn, this roll was my 56th in my life I developed so the journey is still ahead of me.

Awaiting for your expertise...

Thanks,
Ben

 

[Dez]

You really can't tell anything from these pictures. They are both unsharp, and in frame 7 there is apparent motion blur. It looks like the focus is off, or the dirt in the lens may be a major factor. I think you need to clean the lens thoroughly, and then shoot another roll with detailed subjects and high shutter speeds.

Cheers,
Dez

 

[bence8810]

You really can't tell anything from these pictures. They are both unsharp, and in frame 7 there is apparent motion blur. It looks like the focus is off, or the dirt in the lens may be a major factor. I think you need to clean the lens thoroughly, and then shoot another roll with detailed subjects and high shutter speeds.

Cheers,
Dez

Got it, will do and post back.

Thanks,
Ben

 

[bence8810]

You really can't tell anything from these pictures. They are both unsharp, and in frame 7 there is apparent motion blur. It looks like the focus is off, or the dirt in the lens may be a major factor. I think you need to clean the lens thoroughly, and then shoot another roll with detailed subjects and high shutter speeds.

Cheers,
Dez

So Dez, I took the lens apart again. I mean just twisted off the front element which splits the lens into two but I am sure there are a heck of a lot more places it could separate but I just dont know where and how. I am not an expert...
Upon inspection, there isn't that much haze in it at all! I think it might just be fine. I do see fungus in the front element which looks like it's just on the back side where I separate the lens but it isn't. it's a few mm's below the surface, I guess the glass is glued there or something. I can't get to it. Basically I wasn't able to do any cleaning, at least nothing that's visible. Oh well!

I actually prefer to take pictures indoors usually of people so it might just be ok for that. I hardly photograph outdoors with it, or outdoors with some landscape. I always try to have a face in it. Outdoors I mainly use a Medium format Mamiya as I prefer the waist level finder for composing.

Anyways, what do I do to test it out? Look for a brick wall (which I am not sure would be an easy find in Japan...) or something like that?

Thanks a lot,
Ben

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

Those pictures were taken indoors and it looks like the lens was wide open (f/2 ?).

In your shoes I would take some pictures at each aperture and with the camera on a tripod. That will give you a better idea of what the lens can do.

I was talking to a technician years ago who said that some experts can take compound or cemented lenses apart and clean then them and then re-cement them but I've no idea how you will be able to find them.

Perhaps someone reading this can help?

From what he was saying it's a difficult job and needs special equipment, so not for home technicians.

Regards, David

 

[pete hogan]

^^Focal Point Inc in Superior, Colorado. Difficult and expensive.

 

[Dez]

I would just look for a subject which fills the frame, has some detail, and where everything would be in focus. A brick wall does that nicely, but makes for boring pictures.

The Summitar has three cemented pairs of elements in it, and if your problem is in the balsam cementing elements together, you had best leave it alone unless it is really terrible. Repair is generally not a DIY, and is expensive.

Focal Point is a very capable company, and their work is excellent. I once had an otherwise near-mint Summarit with front coating damage redone by them. But unless it's a valuable lens, it's likely less expensive to buy a new one rather than have it repaired. My Summarit repair cost $150 several years ago, but their rate is now $225 for a single surface re-polishing, and I suspect separating, cleaning, and re-cementing would be more.

So if the crud isn't really bad per the pan-across-a-light-in-a-dark-room test, I'd just enjoy the lens as it is.

Cheers,
Dez

 

[Pioneer]

After looking at both pictures they do appear a bit soft, but not terribly so. I really don't think there is anything wrong with the lens at all.

It is very obvious that the lens was wide open at f/2 (or very close to that) so the depth of field would be pretty narrow. Getting sharp focus with moving subjects in that lighting is challenging to say the least. Personally I think you did well.

If it were me I would just go on shooting and enjoying the camera. But if you are really interested in determining how sharp the lens can be then you will have to do some testing at various aperture settings. There are lots of internet resources that will help but I have found Bob Atkins directions to be quite good. It can be found here. http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/technical/testing_lenses.html

One of our local gurus, Roger Hicks, also has some pithy thoughts on this as well. I found this article quite useful and go back to it often. http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps choosing lenses 1.html

Have fun.

 

[bence8810]

Thank you all for the replies. I have been away for a few days and have put a few pictures through the lens. I'll see what comes out of it once developed. Unfortunately i don't take as many pictures as I'd like to somehow.

I'll try to take some pictures outdoors and maybe one/two test shots on a boring wall just to see at different apertures.

In general the thread above brought me to a calm and I'll be just enjoying the lens as it is.

Thanks,
Ben

 

[ninjin]

I am a little bit late, but I have been shooting a 1949 Summitar for the last two years on my LTM Leica, Bessa and M8. It was inherited from grandfather, so I have a bit of an emotional attachment to it.

It deserves some service, the only thing it has been given is whatever Leica Ginza did to it when I handed in the M8 for sensor cleaning (I can swear that the aperture ring was smoother and the front/back elements cleaner when it came back to me...).

Here are some samples from my Summitar:

http://pontus.stenetorp.se/photography.html#2012-04-07-meiji-jinguu (film)

http://pontus.stenetorp.se/photography.html#2014-08-04-tokyo_skytree (digital)

About cleaning out the haze, there is Kanto Camera Service, they have a very good reputation and might be a good shot. I really should ask about my Summitar, but I am afraid of the estimate.

http://www.kanto-cs.co.jp/english/aboutrepair.html

 

[bence8810]

I am a little bit late, but I have been shooting a 1949 Summitar for the last two years on my LTM Leica, Bessa and M8. It was inherited from grandfather, so I have a bit of an emotional attachment to it.

It deserves some service, the only thing it has been given is whatever Leica Ginza did to it when I handed in the M8 for sensor cleaning (I can swear that the aperture ring was smoother and the front/back elements cleaner when it came back to me...).

Here are some samples from my Summitar:

http://pontus.stenetorp.se/photography.html#2012-04-07-meiji-jinguu (film)

http://pontus.stenetorp.se/photography.html#2014-08-04-tokyo_skytree (digital)

About cleaning out the haze, there is Kanto Camera Service, they have a very good reputation and might be a good shot. I really should ask about my Summitar, but I am afraid of the estimate.

http://www.kanto-cs.co.jp/english/aboutrepair.html

Hello there,

Thanks for your note, nice pics. Also read a bit of your profile on your site, quite an interesting line of work you are in, not that I understand even a single bit of it...

I got this set for 3manyen, about 300 USD which included the lens and the perfectly functioning Leica IIIc so I can't really complain but at the same time I also don't want to spend an arm and a leg fixing the lens up as I can get a better copy perhaps even with an M mount for less than the repair. I'll drop Kanto a note and will post back, I am guessing the quote would be rather substantial.

Thanks,
Ben

 

[maddoc]

Nice to meet another JSPS fellow and Summitar owner here. 🙂 However, my copy of the Summitar lens has developed some severe separation of the front element after trying a DIY cure against something that I thought might be fungus (which is was not ..) by using a strong UV light in the lab.

I am a little bit late, but I have been shooting a 1949 Summitar for the last two years on my LTM Leica, Bessa and M8. It was inherited from grandfather, so I have a bit of an emotional attachment to it.

It deserves some service, the only thing it has been given is whatever Leica Ginza did to it when I handed in the M8 for sensor cleaning (I can swear that the aperture ring was smoother and the front/back elements cleaner when it came back to me...).

Here are some samples from my Summitar:

http://pontus.stenetorp.se/photography.html#2012-04-07-meiji-jinguu (film)

http://pontus.stenetorp.se/photography.html#2014-08-04-tokyo_skytree (digital)

About cleaning out the haze, there is Kanto Camera Service, they have a very good reputation and might be a good shot. I really should ask about my Summitar, but I am afraid of the estimate.

http://www.kanto-cs.co.jp/english/aboutrepair.html