Leica IIIg Frameline Calibration

Coldkennels

Barnack-toting Brit.
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Does anyone have any experience with adjusting the position of the framelines in a IIIg's viewfinder? I've been having some issues for a long while where what's on the negative seems wildly off from how I actually framed, so I did a crude test this week. Here's what I see through the viewfinder:

IMG_1558.jpg

And here's what's on the negative:

Leica IIIg - Roll 52T - Fomapan 100 - Rodinal (9).jpg

I found a copy of the service manual so I know adjustment of this is technically possible -

1761869928437.png

- but I can't imagine a way to accurately adjust it without Leitz's proper jigs for the job, short of reprinting my crude corner targets and saying "well, it needs to be nudged up by 5cm at a distance of 1m".

(Also, now I think of it, is it even possible to have a lens mounted on a IIIg when the top is removed?)
 
I find it hard to see the left edge of my iiig's frameline. I wear glasses, and I believe that is part of the problem. No such difficulty with either of my iiic bodies. But, I wonder--having read this post--if alignment is my problem.
 
(Also, now I think of it, is it even possible to have a lens mounted on a IIIg when the top is removed?)
Hi, that should be possible. It’s been a couple of years since I opened my IIIg but I recall it being like A IIIc/f with the mounting ring on a plate screwed to the crate (unlike I-IIIb). Taking the shell off will allow ground glass to be used but of course you will forfeit the tripod mount.
 
Hi, that should be possible. It’s been a couple of years since I opened my IIIg but I recall it being like A IIIc/f with the mounting ring on a plate screwed to the crate (unlike I-IIIb). Taking the shell off will allow ground glass to be used but of course you will forfeit the tripod mount.
Yeah, reading through the service manual, it looks like the "correct" process is to mount the shutter crate and finder into a holder that is attached to some sort of calibration jig:

1761920720281.png

I assume the "distance setting gauge" is something that holds the RF cam follower at a precise point, and the "mounting ring" it's attached to is the lens mount.

Without these jigs, I'm guessing I can probably get it close enough by knowing the offset I'm starting with (5cm at 1m, as shown in the original post). I figure if I can fix the IIIg to a tripod with a lens attached but top plate removed, I can line up the viewfinder frame 5cm below the target and then nudge it upwards until it's where it's supposed to be. The question really is how easy this is to do; the diagram in the original post suggests that there's one screw holding the mask in the correct position, but the "setting plate" referred to above that diagram is slightly deeper in the RF/VF assembly:

1761921096905.png

(It's part 42-700.01-555 in this exploded diagram)

I'm not sure how moving that part will be helpful in getting the framelines in the right place, personally - I presume it adjusts the entire angle of view through the viewfinder, which may help - or make it worse.
 
So, the frameline position can't be adjusted without opening the camera and removing the shutter crate? Sounds scary for a non-trained Leica owner, even one with at least some mechanical skills.
 
So, the frameline position can't be adjusted without opening the camera and removing the shutter crate?
I don't think you need to remove the shutter crate - the service manual starts with a complete teardown, then works up to this point with a partial reassembly. I think if you don't need to tinker with the shutter crate at all if there's no need for adjustment or service below the viewfinder. Everything that needs to be accessed should be accessible just from taking off the top plate. I need to replace the PC socket anyway, so if I can, I might as well kill two birds with one stone.
 
I don't think you need to remove the shutter crate - the service manual starts with a complete teardown, then works up to this point with a partial reassembly. I think if you don't need to tinker with the shutter crate at all if there's no need for adjustment or service below the viewfinder. Everything that needs to be accessed should be accessible just from taking off the top plate. I need to replace the PC socket anyway, so if I can, I might as well kill two birds with one stone.
True but removing the shell would allow the use of ground glass to match the VF with the image with certainty. No service needed but it would give instant feedback.
 
My concern with that approach is that there's no reliable way to anchor the camera in place - I don't have a dedicated holder like Leitz did for such things. Without the shell and baseplate, I might end up moving the damn thing with every small adjustment.

I guess if I had a 3D printer to hand, I could probably knock up a tripod-mountable anchor to sit the shutter crate in. Hm...
 
I guess if I had a 3D printer to hand, I could probably knock up a tripod-mountable anchor to sit the shutter crate in. Hm...
That thought has crossed my mind but it’s a bit overkill for one camera. Something like a shell with a hole in the back but allowing the baseplate to be mounted would be good. Anyone got any spare IIIg shells?
 
i feel like you could get "close enough" with the shell off and a ground glass over the back. I find it easier to get the top cover off with the shell at least partially off anyway. It may not be as perfect as achievable with leica's service jigs, but probably decent enough. It also looks to me like a very carefully applied vise with padded jaws could hold the very bottom of the crate with the shell removed.
 
Every so often I feel an urge to buy a really trashed Barnack, e.g. a iiic or iiif, and learn to work on them, as well as learning more about how they work. This thread revives my interest!
Well the IIIg viewfinder is a special aspect of Barnacks, but as everyone always says, start on a Zorki 1 or FED 1 (though Zorki is probably much cheaper). This will teach the basics of a Leica II and will leave you with an understanding of the shutter mechanism which did not change in principle for the whole series (though it added brakes and bearings etc. as time went on); the rangefinder will also be very similar. Having said that a non-working IIIc can sometime be had for around 100 pounds and I feel they are cheaper in the US.

Basically if you can change a mirror and curtains on a Zorki 1 without opening the crate you can do it on pretty well any Barnack type camera, things get a bit more complex once you split the crate. Slow speed mechanisms changed a bit more however.
 
IMG_0570.jpegIMG_0571.jpegIMG_0572.jpegRespectfully, I suggest you are over thinking things. There are two ways you can attack this.
(1) you utilise Leitz's alignment tooling. Assuming that is not available
(2) you will have to dial the calibration in by trial and error.

The only way you can realistically have any hope of obtaining decent accuracy will be by removing the body casing, and using a ground glass and loupe across the film rails to compare what is actually transmitted through the lens, with what you can see through the viewfinder. Tedious, but this will work.

It really doesn't matter if your camera moves in between your adjustments. As long as you have a means of returning it to an identical position every time, it will not affect the process.

I would suggest that the close end is likely to be the most problematic, it's where parallax will be at its most extreme. There are no guarantees you will not have to revisit this—but, if I was doing this, I would: Start off near the minimum focus distance, match the top left marker (it's the furthest from the lens axis, and, hence, likely to matter, the most) to what I can see on the glass; Set the lens to infinity and, 15 feet; See if I could live with any deviations at these distances and, if not; Balance the trade off as best you can.

Obviously, you will need a way of consistently returning your camera to the same location between adjustments. For a close range test (say I am dialling the viewing lens of a TLR in to its taking lens and comparing the close range match) I will often point a camera at a black and white magnet on the front of my white refrigerator. Lots of contrast helps nail the focus.

If you need to do a frame calibration, some strips of black auto electrical tape on the door of a white fridge for a reference target will serve the purpose nicely. How to lock in the camera position? Well...place two or three tape strips onto your kitchen bench against which to line up the front and sides of the shutter crate between tweaks. Or some other stable means of support. Quick and dirty, but good enough.

Comparing the infinity framing means pointing the camera outdoors, but, again, surely you have an outdoor table, window ledge or even a car roof onto which you can consistently position your camera sans casing. Watch the car paintwork if you resort to that.

Unless I'm mistaken, in the attached pages from their manual, Leitz advise to base a calibration on the 9cm framelines. (The longer focal length is likely to be less forgiving of parallax, so presumably this is germane to their instructions). It stands to reason you will want to have a trustworthy 9cm screw mount lens at your disposal. Out of an abundance of caution, I'd suggest it best to attach a Leitz 9cm of some description to eliminate possible complications such as variations from Leitz's standard focal length tolerances etc which might (or might not) present themselves if other makers' 9cm optics were attached.

Be aware that extricating a IIIg from its casing is somewhat more tedious than earlier screw mounts. Well I imagine it is—I prefer the IIIf and IIIc models, personally. But I have fully serviced a IIIf RD ST and, whilst the timer escapement itself need not be disturbed—the various shims, distance pieces and other components which comprise the overly complex connection to the gear train can be extremely tedious to reinstall, if you have never done it previously. (Having said this, one of our members owns a de-timered IIIg; perhaps it's you?).

A soldering iron should be needed to disconnect and reconnect the wire for the sync terminal. You'll need to have the tools required for the fastener under the rewind knob and, possibly the bezels for the RF windows and so on.

For all this the screw mount models are, generally, a delight to work on. They have everything they need to make quality images and (IIIg excepted) nothing they don't. I did a full service and curtain replacement on a friend's IIIf black dial a few months ago and it all went fairly smoothly and the camera is now returning accurate times and is back in regular use.

Might as well clean the finder optics while you're in there. Watch the rear surface of the beam splitter! Leave it be or dribble lens cleaner across it with the body upside down. They can usually stand some limited direct contact, but...better not to touch it, if at all possible.

Obviously up to you as to whether you can manage the disassembly and reassembly process. If in doubt may be better to solicit the services of an experienced technician. Mind how you go. 😉
Brett
 
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