Filson Back
Established
I'm looking for a touch of advice about gear. I'm debating tracking down a used Leica M-series body or going with a Bessa R4M and a 28mm lens. I am sure this debate has been done to death and there are strong arguments on each side--I've done my research. Here are my considerations and I've read the reviews. I'm looking for a knock-around body to use a lot, not necessarily something that looks good or has cachet.
1--A new MP or other "mint" late M camera is out because of price.
2--Old M bodies tend to need CLA before they are shooters.
3--I want to use a 28mm wide-angle lens, so this may diminish the focussing issues some have reported with longer lenses on the CV bodies.
I like the durability and heritage of Leica but I am beginning to think that for someone who is really eager to go out and put a lot of film through a rig the Bessa R4M with a 28 is a good deal. I have heard a lot of talk about how the CV bodies have a shorter effective base length--BUT, a big but--with a 28 at smaller apertures the high DOF of the lens makes this almost or completely a non-issue because the DOF is sufficiently high to make up for small focussing inaccuracies.
I would love to find a beat-up ugly M body that had been serviced to make it run smooth as a good user (cosmetics are not a big deal for me--but tracking down a good user straight from Ebay or most dealers seems dicey. RF cameras need more care and feeding than say a Nikon FM2. After you get a body AND get it serviced then it seems you have a shooter. Given the ability of the Bessa to sufficiently resolve images on a 28mm lens, why not go with a body that is brand new at the same price?
Am I compromising in a way that will affect image quality? I'm not even sure what the other considerations are that I should know about. Thanks in advance for any wisdom.
1--A new MP or other "mint" late M camera is out because of price.
2--Old M bodies tend to need CLA before they are shooters.
3--I want to use a 28mm wide-angle lens, so this may diminish the focussing issues some have reported with longer lenses on the CV bodies.
I like the durability and heritage of Leica but I am beginning to think that for someone who is really eager to go out and put a lot of film through a rig the Bessa R4M with a 28 is a good deal. I have heard a lot of talk about how the CV bodies have a shorter effective base length--BUT, a big but--with a 28 at smaller apertures the high DOF of the lens makes this almost or completely a non-issue because the DOF is sufficiently high to make up for small focussing inaccuracies.
I would love to find a beat-up ugly M body that had been serviced to make it run smooth as a good user (cosmetics are not a big deal for me--but tracking down a good user straight from Ebay or most dealers seems dicey. RF cameras need more care and feeding than say a Nikon FM2. After you get a body AND get it serviced then it seems you have a shooter. Given the ability of the Bessa to sufficiently resolve images on a 28mm lens, why not go with a body that is brand new at the same price?
Am I compromising in a way that will affect image quality? I'm not even sure what the other considerations are that I should know about. Thanks in advance for any wisdom.
???
Member
I have little doubt that the R4M is a bad camera. I am sure many would recommend it while many others would recommend looking for a good M2/M4/M5/M6 to use with a 28mm lens.
While I like using Leicas, I am sure that both companies will provide a fine camera. Buy a used camera from either one and don't worry about losing much money. Many are bitten by the Leica "bug", so you may want to try CV or Zeiss before getting pulled in.
As for 28s, the Hexanon 2.8s are fantastic (but you didn't ask).
While I like using Leicas, I am sure that both companies will provide a fine camera. Buy a used camera from either one and don't worry about losing much money. Many are bitten by the Leica "bug", so you may want to try CV or Zeiss before getting pulled in.
As for 28s, the Hexanon 2.8s are fantastic (but you didn't ask).
Debusti Paolo
Well-known
My idea is to start with a contax g2 + 45/2 ! I own the whole kit (15/4,5 modified heliar,21mm(better than my 21/2,8 asph),28,35,45 & 90 mm lenses) and I have to say that it's a jewel!!!You can find body & lenses at low costs @ ebay.ALSO you can consider a bronica rf645 with 45/65/100mm kit but it's a different choice....
mfogiel
Veteran
The Idea of beginning with a R4 and a 28mm lens is a very god one, but I would absolutely opt for the R4A, as AE is vital for fast street photography. Since you will be shooting at f 8.0 most of the time anyway, you might opt for the CV 28/3.5, although personally I think that the finest 28mm lens for the money you can find on the market is the CV 28/1.9 ASPH. Once you will have been through a few hundred rolls, will have found your favourite film ( for me it is Tri X) and developer (for me it is DD-X) and will be ready to try other lenses and photographic concepts, I would encourage you to save up for an M7, as it looks like Leica will not make film cameras for much longer, and getting hold of a mint one should be a smart move.
Bessa R4A, Elmarit 28/2.8 ASPH, shot on the fly from above my head:
Bessa R4A, Elmarit 28/2.8 ASPH, shot on the fly from above my head:
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Neare
Well-known
Perhaps even just buy a cheap fixed lens RF to see if you enjoy using RF types of cameras?
Filson Back
Established
Not a bad idea Neare. I've been researching the Canonet series of RFs.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
I'd say if you've not shot with an RF much before, you're way over-analyzing this.
The notion that older M bodies all need CLA's is nonsense. Yeah, it can do them some good but it's often not necessary. I've owned two M bodies, both went to Iraq with me and covered some intense urban combat. Neither my M2 nor M4 had never been serviced and both performed perfectly (until a mortar strike forced me to dive on the M4, stripping out the winder shaft. After that got fixed, I fell into the Bay of Cadiz in Spain on assignment when on my way back to the US and seized up the M4 until I got back home.) So, no, not all old M bodies need a CLA.
An RF is not necessarily a more fragile piece of gear as an SLR. If you manage to get the mirror in an SLR out of alignment, you'll never focus it right. All mechanical cameras have their issues.
If you want to shoot a lot, there are few cameras that are as reliable as a Leica M or Barnack model. The Nikon F2 comes to mind and then only a few other offerings from the other big camera manufacturers. The Bessas are nice cameras, and with the A variants, you have the possibility of Aperture priority which is nice. But shooting an M4 spoils you. I have an M8 and it's not in the same class as the M4. Good camera, but the M4 is in my opinion, the best camera ever. Period.
The biggest question you should ask yourself is if you want to do this for real. Dropping some money on nice camera gear is all well & good, but do you know if you like the rangefinder way of shooting? I have a friend who borrowed my M4 for a semester a year ago. He finally got his own RF camera and now he's not as into it since he shot for years with a nikon FM. You lose some capabilities with the RF bodies. He just doesn't like the limitations that the RF puts on his shooting style and that's his right. But now he's out hundreds of dollars and will be getting rid of the kit to fund some more Nikon gear.
So, before you drop a bunch of money on it, start small. Get a very used Barnack with a lens for a few hundred, or maybe a Canon for the same amount. Even a Russian Fed can be a good shooter. Or see if you can borrow a friend's camera for a few weeks to see if you really like the way of making images before putting a bunch of money down on a kit, when you already may have a perfectly good SLR with a lens or two.
Phil Forrest
The notion that older M bodies all need CLA's is nonsense. Yeah, it can do them some good but it's often not necessary. I've owned two M bodies, both went to Iraq with me and covered some intense urban combat. Neither my M2 nor M4 had never been serviced and both performed perfectly (until a mortar strike forced me to dive on the M4, stripping out the winder shaft. After that got fixed, I fell into the Bay of Cadiz in Spain on assignment when on my way back to the US and seized up the M4 until I got back home.) So, no, not all old M bodies need a CLA.
An RF is not necessarily a more fragile piece of gear as an SLR. If you manage to get the mirror in an SLR out of alignment, you'll never focus it right. All mechanical cameras have their issues.
If you want to shoot a lot, there are few cameras that are as reliable as a Leica M or Barnack model. The Nikon F2 comes to mind and then only a few other offerings from the other big camera manufacturers. The Bessas are nice cameras, and with the A variants, you have the possibility of Aperture priority which is nice. But shooting an M4 spoils you. I have an M8 and it's not in the same class as the M4. Good camera, but the M4 is in my opinion, the best camera ever. Period.
The biggest question you should ask yourself is if you want to do this for real. Dropping some money on nice camera gear is all well & good, but do you know if you like the rangefinder way of shooting? I have a friend who borrowed my M4 for a semester a year ago. He finally got his own RF camera and now he's not as into it since he shot for years with a nikon FM. You lose some capabilities with the RF bodies. He just doesn't like the limitations that the RF puts on his shooting style and that's his right. But now he's out hundreds of dollars and will be getting rid of the kit to fund some more Nikon gear.
So, before you drop a bunch of money on it, start small. Get a very used Barnack with a lens for a few hundred, or maybe a Canon for the same amount. Even a Russian Fed can be a good shooter. Or see if you can borrow a friend's camera for a few weeks to see if you really like the way of making images before putting a bunch of money down on a kit, when you already may have a perfectly good SLR with a lens or two.
Phil Forrest
maddoc
... likes film again.
Leica M are cool and hip (I had all of them, some models more than once) but expensive. Unfortunately, I have not seen any single used Leica M (especially the older models) that worked 100% perfect, all of them had the one or other mechanical problem. If it won`t bother you, go for it and experience the "Leica photography". 
Mister E
Well-known
An R4A or Ikon would be great. The bessas have almost no resale for upgrading. Do you wear glasses? The MP's finder is acceptable for 28, but barely. I wouldn't even try any of the other non .58 Leica finders with glasses and a 28.
If you could only have one camera and a 28mm lens, I would make it a Zeiss Ikon.
If you could only have one camera and a 28mm lens, I would make it a Zeiss Ikon.
Damaso
Photojournalist
I would start from what level are you at. If you are new to street photography, photography in general or rangefinders then getting an R4 is a great place to start. Save your money of some decent glass of get a CV lens as well.
The important thing is to get out there and shoot as much as you can and learn the ropes. When you outgrow your gear you can sell and upgrade. If you are in the early stages what kind of gear you have doesn't matter as much as if you can use it to its full potential...
The important thing is to get out there and shoot as much as you can and learn the ropes. When you outgrow your gear you can sell and upgrade. If you are in the early stages what kind of gear you have doesn't matter as much as if you can use it to its full potential...
SimonSawSunlight
Simon Fabel
an in-camera meter or even AE is NOT necessary for fast street shooting. but it can help if you're not used, not bothered or too lazy to shoot fully manual
I use AE(L) on my Mamiya 6 quite often, while with my Ms, which do most of my shooting, I usually go without meter at all.
I use AE(L) on my Mamiya 6 quite often, while with my Ms, which do most of my shooting, I usually go without meter at all.
ashrafazlan
Established
An M6 is hard to beat, although it might not be as nice as the bessa for 28mm
Mister E
Well-known
an in-camera meter or even AE is NOT necessary for fast street shooting. but it can help if you're not used, not bothered or too lazy to shoot fully manual
I use AE(L) on my Mamiya 6 quite often, while with my Ms, which do most of my shooting, I usually go without meter at all.
Simon, I never said it was necessary, but it will definitely help him. As far as going out without a meter, give it a try with color slide film. You can get away with that shooting color neg or monochrome film, but that's not going to cut it for most slide shooters.
SimonSawSunlight
Simon Fabel
I wasn't blaming you either
I have shot slides without meter, see http://comecoloured.blogspot.com/
(most are slide shots, click the picture for data)Mister E
Well-known
I wasn't blaming you either
I have shot slides without meter, see http://comecoloured.blogspot.com/
Ha, you get better exposures without a meter than I get with one...
SimonSawSunlight
Simon Fabel
the advantage of shooting meterless is that you can really set the exposure for what you see and want, without having to rely on some electronic device's average value calculations.but as I said, I do use the meter in my Mamiya 6, which is due to several things, one of them being the fact that I can be very lazy.
but I'm slower with it most of the time, because it always tempts me to check or double-check the meter readings. I am sure other people are very fast with their metered cameras!
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Leigh Youdale
Well-known
AE is very useful for street. With the R4A you can use it or switch to manual, as you please. 28 is good for street, I also use 25 a lot if in narrow lanes and alleys. The R4 will cover that.
The M6 is slower to use, very nice in the hand, but the 28 framelines are right on the edge and (as noted by others) if you wear glasses you won't be able to see them in them entirety. If you do want to go wider than 28 then the R4 will do it - the Leica will need an accessory viewfinder.
The M6 is slower to use, very nice in the hand, but the 28 framelines are right on the edge and (as noted by others) if you wear glasses you won't be able to see them in them entirety. If you do want to go wider than 28 then the R4 will do it - the Leica will need an accessory viewfinder.
Filson Back
Established
Thanks for the advice all. My experience so far is with a Leica IIIf and digital SLRs. I really like the IIIf but don't find it that fast for street--even with zone focussing the viewfinder is a tad too small and the winding a little slow. I thought of an external viewfinder and a wide lens but decided to put that money towards a different rig. I'm trying a Canonet with some Tri-x. If I like it I think I will go up to the Bessa or an M body and new lens.
Austerby
Well-known
I was about to suggest a LTM Leica with the CV 25mm lens and external finder - the finest street camera I've used: tiny, simple, unobtrusive.
Vics
Veteran
First, just to clear up a few things you seem to accept as facts:
I didn't need a CLA on my M3 when I got it. I only did it five years later because if had had some hard use and it needed its flash synch repaired. Did the CLA "just because."
Nothing "dicey" about buying a good user body from a dealer. I got mine at KEH in what was described as BGN condition, and when it came it looked new and worked perfectly.
I think my experience is fairly common.
But: If you don't want a Leica, don't buy one. The Bessas are, by all accounts, fine cameras so if that's what you want, go get one.
I wanted a Leica at the age of twenty and always did want one through all those many lesser cams I owned through all the years. Finally got a Leica at 60, and I really do wish I had bought the M3 first. BTW, my Nikon F SLRs (four of them) have spent LOTS more time in the shop than my Leica has. SLRs just have a lot more to go wrong.
Good luck!
I didn't need a CLA on my M3 when I got it. I only did it five years later because if had had some hard use and it needed its flash synch repaired. Did the CLA "just because."
Nothing "dicey" about buying a good user body from a dealer. I got mine at KEH in what was described as BGN condition, and when it came it looked new and worked perfectly.
I think my experience is fairly common.
But: If you don't want a Leica, don't buy one. The Bessas are, by all accounts, fine cameras so if that's what you want, go get one.
I wanted a Leica at the age of twenty and always did want one through all those many lesser cams I owned through all the years. Finally got a Leica at 60, and I really do wish I had bought the M3 first. BTW, my Nikon F SLRs (four of them) have spent LOTS more time in the shop than my Leica has. SLRs just have a lot more to go wrong.
Good luck!