LTM versus M Leicas -- are Barnacks more durable, easier/cheaper to maintain?

[traveler_101]

Seems like every time I sign in to RFF I am reading about another repair bill for a M camera. 🙁 On the other hand, I hear of far fewer problems with the generally older LTM cameras. Is this accurate or simply an impression? What do you think?

 

[KoNickon]

I am no repairman, but my distinct sense is that the Barnacks are easier to maintain and repair. They are simpler cameras for one thing (less complicated optics; fewer features -- typically no self-timer, no frame preview, separate slow speeds, no meter). On the other hand, the Barnacks are older and may have more age-related problems, such as worn out shutter curtains and faded beamsplitters. But I am struck by how many seem to work perfectly without having had any work done to them.

 

[sevo]

Yes. It is pretty inevitable that, given constant build and design quality, a complex camera will be more failure prone than a simple design. LTM cameras (maybe except for the IIIg, which increased the finder compexity half way to the M3) are quite trivial, compared to the M series. By SLR standards (which are about as complex as a M) the Ms fare pretty well.

 

[Dralowid]

I would also suggest that the ltm cameras are owned by many but used regularly by few. The Ms are workhorses for all.

 

[Brian Legge]

The expense in repairing the finder alone can make a Barnack cheaper. 😉

 

[Pioneer]

Yes. It is pretty inevitable that, given constant build and design quality, a complex camera will be more failure prone than a simple design. LTM cameras (maybe except for the IIIg, which increased the finder compexity half way to the M3) are quite trivial, compared to the M series. By SLR standards (which are about as complex as a M) the Ms fare pretty well.

Your source for that claim is??

I do not believe that the M cameras are, or were, anymore robust then a well built SLR.

As for Barnacks, mine have been relatively robust, but so have most of my cameras, including my Bessa R and my Vivitar V3800N, neither of which possess a reputation for awesome build quality.

If we are considering anecdotal evidence the I have a Pentax K1000 that I personally know has worked steadily under very adverse conditions since purchased used in 1984 until finally sent for a cleaning in 2013. Likewise I have a Pentax LX that I purchased from my uncle in 2008 when he went digital that is still taking great pictures though it has not been serviced in any way since it was purchased new in 1986.

I'm sure there are a number of similar stories out there.

 

[sevo]

Your source for that claim is??

Personal experience in my pro camera shop days - our rental M's did not appear to be significantly more or less reliable than our other cameras.

I have a Pentax LX that I purchased from my uncle in 2008 when he went digital that is still taking great pictures though it has not been serviced in any way since it was purchased new in 1986.

Given that the LX has known long-time reliability issues (at least relative to the MX and Nikon and Canon pro SLRs), and a much worse reputation than M Leicas of similar vintage, I'd attribute that to luck, or to excellent storage conditions and light use.

 

[thegman]

Not a repair man, but I managed to damage a shutter on a IIIf quite easily just by loading film (which I'd cut to shape using the required template). Now that was my fault, certainly, I accept that, but I never managed to inflict such damage on my M cameras.

So my experience is that Barnacks are easier to break, no idea about repair though.

 

[Pioneer]

Thanks. Rental repair shop memories are anecdotal, but certainly more data to draw on.

Luck is probably a factor for my LX s durability, but not the light use part. My uncle made his living with the LX and his Pentax 6x7. Both were used pretty heavily. He was a firm believer in the LX and felt it was one of the best cameras he had ever owned. I have used it quite a bit since then but obviously nowhere as much as he did.

I have nothing against my Leicas either. My M3 cameras are also very reliable, but each has had regular service calls over the years. I would guess that rental cameras were also serviced pretty regularly. Not good form to have them die when in the customer's hands.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Leicas, M and screwmounts alike, need quite a lot of maintenance. They need from time to time fresh grease (different sorts) and tiny little drops of oil on certain places. And the rubber-impregnated curtains must be replaced from time to time as the rubber coating gets dry and cracks. They also benefit from internal cleaning. I have a great repairman, mr. Scherpenborg from Nijmegen. He is a factory-trained repairman now in his seventies. My old Leicas are all serviced by him and they operate with a silky smoothness that not serviced old Leicas do not have.

Erik.

 

[Dez]

Your question here is rather unclear. The question about whether one kind is easier and cheaper to fix is quite different from the question of which is the more durable. The responses you are getting here are to both of these questions.

Cheers Dez

 

[traveler_101]

Leicas, M and screwmounts alike, need quite a lot of maintenance. They need from time to time fresh grease (different sorts) and tiny little drops of oil on certain places. And the rubber-impregnated curtains must be replaced from time to time as the rubber coating gets dry and cracks. They also benefit from internal cleaning. I have a great repairman, mr. Scherpenborg from Nijmegen. He is a factory-trained repairman now in his seventies. My old Leicas are all serviced by him and they operate with a silky smoothness that not serviced old Leicas do not have.

Erik.

Hi Erik, Do you have them CLA'd on a regular basis and if so how often? Once every five years?

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

Well one of my Barnacks is coming up to 90 years old and none of the M's are although one is about half way there.

The problem is no one has owned both from new with a complete service record and so on. So we'll never know.

Regards, David

 

[traveler_101]

Hi,

Well one of my Barnacks is coming up to 90 years old and none of the M's are although one is about half way there.

The problem is no one has owned both from new with a complete service record and so on. So we'll never know.

Regards, David

It would be interesting to number crunch Leica's records to see how many came in for repair within the warranty period and then within a 20 year period after manufacture, organised by model and type.

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

M's have much more parts and are more complicated in construction. These two aspects ask for a more complex repair/service handling than a Barnack. That said, most M's are less old than Barnacks so age-wear would be likely to occur easier on Barnacks.
Please note that repairing camera's is very time consuming if you are doing a good job or want a good job to be done: so prices may seem steep, but are not considering the amount of work. Of course if you have a lot of old camera's, and the camera's itself are not high valued, repair/service by a third party (trained service main) will easy become too high. That's why many of us repair our own camera's. I can tell you from own broad experience: it is very rewarding.

 

[Bill Clark]

Let's see:

I had work done on a IIIF in December 2013. My first for a Leica.

Shutter curtains were old and worn out. Leaking. That's why I had Youxin do all the other stuff as long as shutter curtains need replacing.

Had new shutter curtains, new prism in rangefinder, CLA performed, plus postage for $223.50.

I notice M series are more expensive to repair. Haven't had any M camera sent to the shop yet. Probably will sometime in the near future as I have an M4 that is getting tired.

 

[traveler_101]

M's have much more parts and are more complicated in construction. These two aspects ask for a more complex repair/service handling than a Barnack. That said, most M's are less old than Barnacks so age-wear would be likely to occur easier on Barnacks.
Please note that repairing camera's is very time consuming if you are doing a good job or want a good job to be done: so prices may seem steep, but are not considering the amount of work. Of course if you have a lot of old camera's, and the camera's itself are not high valued, repair/service by a third party (trained service main) will easy become too high. That's why many of us repair our own camera's. I can tell you from own broad experience: it is very rewarding.

I really respect you for repairing your own camera! I'd love to learn how to repair mine; I am genuinely interested, but I must admit that I have no talent for it -- zero. My wife figures out mechanical things better than I do much of the time. i would have to be shown how to do it than maybe I could manage some simple repairs.

 

[traveler_101]

Let's see:

I had work done on a IIIF in December 2013. My first for a Leica.

Shutter curtains were old and worn out. Leaking. That's why I had Youxin do all the other stuff as long as shutter curtains need replacing.

Had new shutter curtains, new prism in rangefinder, CLA performed, plus postage for $223.50.

I notice M series are more expensive to repair. Haven't had any M camera sent to the shop yet. Probably will sometime in the near future as I have an M4 that is getting tired.

Youxin Ye is a great resource; my IIIf got the beam splitter and CLA, but no new curtains -- so they might go, but so far no problem and I use the camera constantly.

"I notice M series are more expensive to repair." mnn . .. hmm

 

[helen.HH]

Way more $$$$ to repair an M body
Barnacks relatively inexpensive to Buy and repair

Barnacks are just Duvine... Truly my FaVorite

Its just my Eyes are now having more of a difficult time focusing in their small window
Hence Glasses which make it more difficile, so I'm back to M bodies

 

[traveler_101]

Way more $$$$ to repair an M body
Barnacks relatively inexpensive to Buy and repair

Barnacks are just Duvine... Truly my FaVorite

Its just my Eyes are now having more of a difficult time focusing in their small window
Hence Glasses which make it more difficile, so I'm back to M bodies

Hi Helen, thanks. Just what I was thinking . . . 🙂 So far I am managing with my old eyes, but it is getting harder.

Interesting you should find the M camera easier to focus. Pioneer says exactly the opposite
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2354807&postcount=7