healyzh
Well-known
I am getting more serious about buying a Leica (somehow I knew getting a Canon Canonet QL17 would lead to this). As I would like I built in meter, I'm trying to decide between these three models; M6, M6 TTL, and M7. I want as much quality in as small of a package as possible, so a body like the M3 or M2 seems like a bad idea since I'd want to also carry a light meter.
As I see it the differences are as follows.
M6 = totally manual with lightmeter like my Nikon FM2, works with dead battery.
M6 TTL = adds TTL for flash (not a big deal to me), works with dead battery.
M7 = AE, only 1/60th & 1/125 with dead battery
As a Nikon user, I shot with my FM2 for years. I started with it in '86, and I still use it some when shooting 35mm. Last year I purchased both a Nikon F3, and the Canon Canonet QL17 which have AE, I must confess I've learned to really appreciate this feature.
I'm curious why people prefer one of these bodies over the others.
Should it matter, I'll mainly be shooting with 35mm and 50mm lenses, I am thinking that I want to start with either the 35mm f/2 Summicron, or some sort of 50mm. How much I spend on the body will definitely have an effect on what lens I get as a first lens.
As I see it the differences are as follows.
M6 = totally manual with lightmeter like my Nikon FM2, works with dead battery.
M6 TTL = adds TTL for flash (not a big deal to me), works with dead battery.
M7 = AE, only 1/60th & 1/125 with dead battery
As a Nikon user, I shot with my FM2 for years. I started with it in '86, and I still use it some when shooting 35mm. Last year I purchased both a Nikon F3, and the Canon Canonet QL17 which have AE, I must confess I've learned to really appreciate this feature.
I'm curious why people prefer one of these bodies over the others.
Should it matter, I'll mainly be shooting with 35mm and 50mm lenses, I am thinking that I want to start with either the 35mm f/2 Summicron, or some sort of 50mm. How much I spend on the body will definitely have an effect on what lens I get as a first lens.
Kristopher
Established
They are all good cameras...
However, M6 ttl and M7 speed dial are rotating "wrong way" compared to earlier leicas. Not a big deal, but when I looked for a back up to my M6 ttl, I found the M6 non-ttl to be a bit more confusing to use because of that. So I ended up with a second M6 ttl.
If you don't need AE, go with an M6 and be happy!
K
However, M6 ttl and M7 speed dial are rotating "wrong way" compared to earlier leicas. Not a big deal, but when I looked for a back up to my M6 ttl, I found the M6 non-ttl to be a bit more confusing to use because of that. So I ended up with a second M6 ttl.
If you don't need AE, go with an M6 and be happy!
K
coelacanth
Ride, dive, shoot.
First of all, welcome to RFF. I think I have similar history as you although I'm a bit younger than you. 
Do you need AE? I think you are used to metered manual body with FM2 already. M7 is pretty much like F3 in Nikon's SLR line-up. Battery driven with emergency mechanical shutter, M7 has two speeds while F3 has one. (other than B)
If your shooting style and main subjects won't need AE or even make things even more complicated, why not go with M6 and spend money on lens? M6 vs M6TTL is totally personal preference. I'd go with M6 classic because I use M2 and MP as well so the shutter speed dial on M6 classic makes more sense. If you are planning to use M7/M8/M9 in the future, M6 TTL is probably the way to go.
Again, it's totally a personal chice, and AE vs Manual must be decided first, but if I were you, I'd go with M6 classic with recent CLA or have it CLA'd. It should give you years or even decades of trouble free use and joy.
Do you need AE? I think you are used to metered manual body with FM2 already. M7 is pretty much like F3 in Nikon's SLR line-up. Battery driven with emergency mechanical shutter, M7 has two speeds while F3 has one. (other than B)
If your shooting style and main subjects won't need AE or even make things even more complicated, why not go with M6 and spend money on lens? M6 vs M6TTL is totally personal preference. I'd go with M6 classic because I use M2 and MP as well so the shutter speed dial on M6 classic makes more sense. If you are planning to use M7/M8/M9 in the future, M6 TTL is probably the way to go.
Again, it's totally a personal chice, and AE vs Manual must be decided first, but if I were you, I'd go with M6 classic with recent CLA or have it CLA'd. It should give you years or even decades of trouble free use and joy.
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bobbyrab
Well-known
I had m6ttl & M7, kept the M6ttl and sold the M7, personally I didn't use the AE function much and battery dependance, plus the slightly clitchy electronics of the M7 meant the M6ttl got the nod when I decided just to keep the one. M6ttl has a slightly better meter, a more intuitive shutter speed direction which is also easier to change while shooting, that said the M6 will give you slightly more towards your lenses. Enjoy.
aizan
Veteran
since you like using ae, you should get an m7. if you ever get an m8 or m9, the shutter speed dial will turn the same way.
if you can do without ae, i'd get an m6 classic and put the extra money into glass. the new 35mm and 50mm summarit-m strike me as the best reasonably priced leica lenses in those focal lengths. i'd rather get those than the 35mm pre-asph summicron and current version 50mm summicron.
if you can do without ae, i'd get an m6 classic and put the extra money into glass. the new 35mm and 50mm summarit-m strike me as the best reasonably priced leica lenses in those focal lengths. i'd rather get those than the 35mm pre-asph summicron and current version 50mm summicron.
S
Stelios
Guest
Hated it when cameras died of battery on my hands, therefore wanted a totaly mechanical camera. M6 TTL has a bigger dial than the Classic but is a bit taller too (not sure how much of a difference it really makes). I'd like the bigger dial but after 3 years with the classic M6 I don't miss it, not even a little.
In the end it all comes to whether you want AE or a fully mechanical camera (sure the M7 operates at 1/125 without batteries).
Oh, and 1/8 on the M6 sounds sexy. I know, I'm weird
In the end it all comes to whether you want AE or a fully mechanical camera (sure the M7 operates at 1/125 without batteries).
Oh, and 1/8 on the M6 sounds sexy. I know, I'm weird
coelacanth
Ride, dive, shoot.
Stelios,
No you aren't weird. Gotta love 1/15 & 1/8 sounds. Ha! M7 doesn't have that sound, huh? Never even thought about it. Then definitely go with M6/M6TTL!! (50% kidding)
I'm always nervous with battery driven cameras. Knowing the reliability of well serviced mechanical camera is just priceless, IMO. I used my MP in rain in Paris with no fear (not that I recommend doing so). Even if lightmeter gets fried, the camera will still work as picture taking machine.
Also, M6 had been in production for really long. With proper servicing, I think M6 will easily outlast you and me.
No you aren't weird. Gotta love 1/15 & 1/8 sounds. Ha! M7 doesn't have that sound, huh? Never even thought about it. Then definitely go with M6/M6TTL!!
(50% kidding)I'm always nervous with battery driven cameras. Knowing the reliability of well serviced mechanical camera is just priceless, IMO. I used my MP in rain in Paris with no fear (not that I recommend doing so). Even if lightmeter gets fried, the camera will still work as picture taking machine.
Also, M6 had been in production for really long. With proper servicing, I think M6 will easily outlast you and me.
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Gary E
Well-known
If you don't use AE much like with your FM2 then get the M6 and possibly a lens with the money you've set aside for this purchase. I've never really seen the need to use flash with my M, but your needs may be different. The M7 is really nice and the newest of the bunch but is battery dependent (which AE cam isn't?) and cost the most on your list. I'm assuming if you get the M6 then you'll price in the 35 and if the M7 then a 50, so it might also depend on how you see best 35 or 50.
Tim Gray
Well-known
I have an M6 and an M7. I enjoy my M7 a lot more. I usually shoot in manual, but it's nice to have AE when you want it. Batteries haven't been an issue for me - it's very easy to carry a spare set compared to film.
To be honest, I've replaced the batteries many more times in the M6 because they can drain while the camera is stored and something depresses the shutter button. The M7 has an on/off switch to prevent this. If you switch the M6 to B, it will also prevent this, but I find the on/off switch a lot more convenient.
I also like the long exposure display on the M7.
All in all, if you will never use AE, or you want to save some cash, get the M6. Other wise, the M7 is great. Mine's been very dependable. I did however get one that already had the new ISO reader.
To be honest, I've replaced the batteries many more times in the M6 because they can drain while the camera is stored and something depresses the shutter button. The M7 has an on/off switch to prevent this. If you switch the M6 to B, it will also prevent this, but I find the on/off switch a lot more convenient.
I also like the long exposure display on the M7.
All in all, if you will never use AE, or you want to save some cash, get the M6. Other wise, the M7 is great. Mine's been very dependable. I did however get one that already had the new ISO reader.
maddoc
... likes film again.
I had all of them (also an MP) and kept the M7. AE is handy and in AE mode the shutter speeds of the M7 are set in very small increments, ideal for color-slides. I also like the ability of the M7 to expose up to 32s automatically and count up to 999s in B-mode. The disadvantage of battery-dependence is totally over-rated, IMHO. The necessary spare batteries are so small that you can tape them to the camera-strap (Try this with a DSLR spare battery ...) and the M7 still has two mechanical speeds, 1/125s and 1/60s, in case of electronic failure.
The light meter of both, M6TTL and M7 (also MP) are more sensitive (one or two stops) compared to the M6. About mechanical shutters, after some time they go off, it depends mainly on how much you use the camera and who has serviced it. Most people using a Leica shoot lots o BW film where the latitude of the film compensates small errors of the shutter speed so it rarely gets noticed.
About reliability ... Only my most expensive and newest M Leicas, the M7 and former MP, had to be serviced by Leica (each camera twice ...). The MP had problems with the shutter and electronics and the M7 had the shutter completely broken. I had never a problem with my M6 or M6TTL, though.
However, before spending big $$$ on an expensive M body, I would first try to get a decent lens and spend the remains on the body. All of the above mentioned cameras are excellent and fun to use.
Good luck with your choice !
Cheers,
Gabor
PS: Welcome to the forum !
The light meter of both, M6TTL and M7 (also MP) are more sensitive (one or two stops) compared to the M6. About mechanical shutters, after some time they go off, it depends mainly on how much you use the camera and who has serviced it. Most people using a Leica shoot lots o BW film where the latitude of the film compensates small errors of the shutter speed so it rarely gets noticed.
About reliability ... Only my most expensive and newest M Leicas, the M7 and former MP, had to be serviced by Leica (each camera twice ...). The MP had problems with the shutter and electronics and the M7 had the shutter completely broken. I had never a problem with my M6 or M6TTL, though.
However, before spending big $$$ on an expensive M body, I would first try to get a decent lens and spend the remains on the body. All of the above mentioned cameras are excellent and fun to use.
Good luck with your choice !
Cheers,
Gabor
PS: Welcome to the forum !
Turtle
Veteran
The pre-TTL M6 will be the cheapest, if you can work without AE. I actually strongly recommend working without AE for B&W neg M type photography in any case. Believe it or not you will get much more consistent exposures across the roll, but thats another topic.
The M6 is also a touch smaller in that the top plate is 2.5mm or so lower that the TTL or M7, not that it matters much.
The M7 is supposed to be a touch quieter, but will also be heavier due to the brass. I certainly feel a difference between my MPs and M6s.
The M6 can only be had in 0.72 and 0.85, whereas the TTL is the easiest to find in all three mags for a sensible price. The M7 can be found in all three, but 0.58s are not common.
All three would be great. I shoot MPs and M6s as I first bought a MP and wanted the remainder to have dials rotating the same way. Those who say this does not really matter evidently do not use their cameras at speed or under pressure, because it makes one hell of a difference if you cannot instinctively turn the dial in the right direction. Its a total show stopper as far as I am concerned. If you work slowly and methodically, or off a tripod, it begs the question of why use a M?
The M7 I think allows for longer than one second exposures in manual (up to 4s?) but I could very well be wrong.
If you want a small, fast handling manual street shooter, I personally think the best bet is a late model black M6 classic in 0.72 if you shoot 28+ with emphasis on 35mm and in 0.85 if you shoot 35+ with emphasis on 50mm. Learn to shoot effectively in manual (pre-setting exposure and adjusting as you move only when required) and you will be doing your negs, and resultant prints, a huge favour. AE twitches according to changing light and while that is great with trannies where the highlights needs adjusting for, its not a good idea with monochrome negatives where its all about the shadow exposure and highlights are dealt with through development and at the printing stage. Just my 2C
The M6 is also a touch smaller in that the top plate is 2.5mm or so lower that the TTL or M7, not that it matters much.
The M7 is supposed to be a touch quieter, but will also be heavier due to the brass. I certainly feel a difference between my MPs and M6s.
The M6 can only be had in 0.72 and 0.85, whereas the TTL is the easiest to find in all three mags for a sensible price. The M7 can be found in all three, but 0.58s are not common.
All three would be great. I shoot MPs and M6s as I first bought a MP and wanted the remainder to have dials rotating the same way. Those who say this does not really matter evidently do not use their cameras at speed or under pressure, because it makes one hell of a difference if you cannot instinctively turn the dial in the right direction. Its a total show stopper as far as I am concerned. If you work slowly and methodically, or off a tripod, it begs the question of why use a M?
The M7 I think allows for longer than one second exposures in manual (up to 4s?) but I could very well be wrong.
If you want a small, fast handling manual street shooter, I personally think the best bet is a late model black M6 classic in 0.72 if you shoot 28+ with emphasis on 35mm and in 0.85 if you shoot 35+ with emphasis on 50mm. Learn to shoot effectively in manual (pre-setting exposure and adjusting as you move only when required) and you will be doing your negs, and resultant prints, a huge favour. AE twitches according to changing light and while that is great with trannies where the highlights needs adjusting for, its not a good idea with monochrome negatives where its all about the shadow exposure and highlights are dealt with through development and at the printing stage. Just my 2C
Tom Diaz
Well-known
I only want to supplement rather than repeat what has been said already. I suggest buying newer rather than older cameras. Leicas are reliable and repairable, but still.... M6TTLs could be many years younger than M6s, for instance. I would rather have a camera with fewer miles and years on it. (I own an M6TTL.) You mentioned the M2/M3 in passing. They are certainly classic and beautifully made machines, but they are likely to be 40 years older than, say, an M6TTL.
The M7 is, of course, even newer. I also like AE cameras and would not hesitate to buy an M7 if the extra bucks are not a problem.
The lens you choose should make little difference. The three cameras you mention all have the same rangefinder base length, so they have the same focusing accuracy with a specific lens.
I'm told that the M7 has a viewfinder that improved on the M6/TTL viewfinder optics a bit, with more flare resistance. I am not sure that in itself is worth extra money, but that brings the MP to mind. It is the match-needle, works-without-batteries equivalent to the M7. So if you wanted a non-AE camera of the same vintage as the M7, the MP is the one.
Tom
healyzh
Well-known
My thanks to everyone that has replied. You have given me lots of good answers to think about.
On the question of the M6 TTL's real benefit being for flash photography, this is not a plus for me, as this is not where I have any desire to use a Leica. My interest in Leica Rangefinders stem from my interest in available light photography.
It sounds like it really boils down to two questions, AE and cost.
The lack of an off switch for the light meter really isn't an issue. While there is one on my Nikon F3, I've given up on actually using it. Recently though I discovered my F3 had dead batteries, the morning before I needed it, and I'd given my spares to my wife for her FM2. That experience is a mark against the M7. Yet I really like AE.
Film would be mostly B&W, though I might shoot the occasional roll of either cheap Fuji C-41, or Kodak Portra (I'd be most likely to use colour film at family functions). I wouldn't be shooting slides with a Leica, I only use them when shooting with one of my 3D camera's.
Based on what I see here, I think the M6 is the most logical choice. It has two main things going for it, it will be fully functional with a dead meter, and if anything even more importantly I can get one for a lot less.
On the question of the lens, with my Nikon FM2 I've traditionally shot a Nikkor Series E 50mm f/1.8, and until a few years ago when I got a DSLR, the only other lens I had for it was an old 135mm f/2.8 Nikkor. Last year I bought a 35mm f/2 for my D300, and I really like using it on my film bodies. I'm torn between being more interested in the 50mm Summilux f/1.4 or the 35mm Summicron f/2. The largest appeal to me for the 35mm lens is the size and weight, but I've also come to like that length.
Hmmm, weight is an interesting subject, that is another point in favor of the M6 as it is lighter, and ever so slightly smaller. I'm looking at this as a camera to carry all the time, including when I'm shooting MF or LF film, so size and weight are an important factor.
On the question of the M6 TTL's real benefit being for flash photography, this is not a plus for me, as this is not where I have any desire to use a Leica. My interest in Leica Rangefinders stem from my interest in available light photography.
It sounds like it really boils down to two questions, AE and cost.
The lack of an off switch for the light meter really isn't an issue. While there is one on my Nikon F3, I've given up on actually using it. Recently though I discovered my F3 had dead batteries, the morning before I needed it, and I'd given my spares to my wife for her FM2. That experience is a mark against the M7. Yet I really like AE.
Film would be mostly B&W, though I might shoot the occasional roll of either cheap Fuji C-41, or Kodak Portra (I'd be most likely to use colour film at family functions). I wouldn't be shooting slides with a Leica, I only use them when shooting with one of my 3D camera's.
Based on what I see here, I think the M6 is the most logical choice. It has two main things going for it, it will be fully functional with a dead meter, and if anything even more importantly I can get one for a lot less.
On the question of the lens, with my Nikon FM2 I've traditionally shot a Nikkor Series E 50mm f/1.8, and until a few years ago when I got a DSLR, the only other lens I had for it was an old 135mm f/2.8 Nikkor. Last year I bought a 35mm f/2 for my D300, and I really like using it on my film bodies. I'm torn between being more interested in the 50mm Summilux f/1.4 or the 35mm Summicron f/2. The largest appeal to me for the 35mm lens is the size and weight, but I've also come to like that length.
Hmmm, weight is an interesting subject, that is another point in favor of the M6 as it is lighter, and ever so slightly smaller. I'm looking at this as a camera to carry all the time, including when I'm shooting MF or LF film, so size and weight are an important factor.
Steve M.
Veteran
If it were my decision, and I was going to spend that sort of money, it would have to be an M7. AE means all the difference in the world for accurate, fast exposures, especially when you go from sun to shade.
coelacanth
Ride, dive, shoot.
For this specific case, I don't know if that's true. AE can give problems/costs time in tricky situations. Manual exposure won't do that. Know the light and exposure you need, and the camera won't get fooled by backlight or need reframing after metering. When I move from sun to shade, I'll just drop EV 3-4 and be on my way. (or meter once if you'd like) If your main film is B/W and occasional C41, that's enough and you'll quickly adapt the shooting method. Some situations and shooting style AE is definitely handy, but from what OP has described, I think M6 can be as fast as M7 if not faster. And again, you can save quite a bit of money on body.
Tim Gray
Well-known
A couple things in reply. First, M7 prices are dropping. And it seems like M6 prices are rising. So keep that in mind. If you can find a good M6 for $900, go for it. If it's $1300 and you can find an M7 for $1700, I'd think hard about the M7.
As far as the batteries go, they are small. I bought a 10 pack of them from an online store - cost about $20. I cut the cards up and managed to fit 6 batteries (3 complete sets) in an empty film canister. That stays in my camera bag. I put some others in places that I find convenient - glove compartment, messenger bag, etc. Mind you, the batteries last 50-75 rolls, so it's not like they don't last.
The size and weight difference of the M6 and M7 is a non issue.
I can't answer the usefulness of AE for you. I find that if I'm shooting outdoors, I hardly ever use AE. It's easy to meter with an incident meter or the built in meter and compensate for shade, direct sun, etc. It's indoors that I find AE useful. Lighting conditions can be vastly different depending on where in a room you are standing and which way you are looking. Rarely do I let AE go full auto - I usually meter, AE lock, and recompose. If I didn't have AE, I'd be doing the exact same thing except I'd be changing the shutter dial manually to match the meter. Since I'm metering intelligently on something I think is middle gray, I can use the reading directly. If there is no middle gray and I meter off a shadow instead, it's just as easy to turn the shutter dial on the M7 and go manual as it is on the M6. Thus, if you are in situation that calls for manual, just use the M7 in manual.
As far as the batteries go, they are small. I bought a 10 pack of them from an online store - cost about $20. I cut the cards up and managed to fit 6 batteries (3 complete sets) in an empty film canister. That stays in my camera bag. I put some others in places that I find convenient - glove compartment, messenger bag, etc. Mind you, the batteries last 50-75 rolls, so it's not like they don't last.
The size and weight difference of the M6 and M7 is a non issue.
I can't answer the usefulness of AE for you. I find that if I'm shooting outdoors, I hardly ever use AE. It's easy to meter with an incident meter or the built in meter and compensate for shade, direct sun, etc. It's indoors that I find AE useful. Lighting conditions can be vastly different depending on where in a room you are standing and which way you are looking. Rarely do I let AE go full auto - I usually meter, AE lock, and recompose. If I didn't have AE, I'd be doing the exact same thing except I'd be changing the shutter dial manually to match the meter. Since I'm metering intelligently on something I think is middle gray, I can use the reading directly. If there is no middle gray and I meter off a shadow instead, it's just as easy to turn the shutter dial on the M7 and go manual as it is on the M6. Thus, if you are in situation that calls for manual, just use the M7 in manual.
Beemermark
Veteran
M6 classic older, very prone to flare. M6 TTL, better build, less prone to flare, otherwise pretty much the same camera. M7 - less prone to flare, at some point finder changed to almost no flare, Same as M6 but has option for AE. I've had all 3, would never buy the M6 classic again. There is a good reason the M6 is a lot cheaper than the TTL (and it's not because of the TTL flash). I thought the battery issue died when Nikon brought out the top of the line F3 for professionals in 1980.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Steve,
Not for me. Fast, maybe (though I've seldom found it faster than manual if I'm concentrating) but definitely not as accurate as an intelligently interpreted manual reading.
Cheers,
R.
healyzh
Well-known
I hadn't realized the M6's were going up in price, but I had noticed that there is often a very slim difference in prices.
Tim Gray
Well-known
While for the most part I agree with you, whenever these discussions come up, people seem to never bring up the AE lock function. You can use AE more intelligently then just framing your shot and clicking the button. And of course you can always go manual.
When I picked up my M7 they were going for $2000-2250 for the most part. That was about 2 years ago. I bought my M6 for $900 about 4 years ago. That was not a fluke price either - I missed several on ebay that went for the same price.
Now I'm seeing GOOD M7s go for $1700. It's been a long time since I've seen an M6 for under $1k.
Not trying to discourage you from the M6. It's a great camera. I really like mine