OK, the digital $5,000 digital M8 was introduced with a few problems. And if you want perfect M8 colors, it gets more expensive quickly with expensive IR filters.
But where does it stand in the M digital marketplace?
The leader, by default.
Despite its fans, the Epson RD1/s has been effectively abandoned by Epson. Epson didn't know how to sell it, and after one production run, Epson gave up. Sure an RD2 was planned even before the RD1 was introduced, but it will never be made. From here on out, I believe the RD parts and repair situation will only
get a lot worse.
What about a digital Zeiss ZM or Voigtlander? Probably not any time soon. One, or more likely two years away, IF then. I personally expect to see a M8 Mark II before I see a digital ZM or VM. There is a REASON why Leica had so much trouble with a digital M. At this point in digital technology, it AIN'T EASY!
That leaves the M8 as the once and future digital M king for the foreseeable future. A camera for people with money, to be sure. But Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, etc sure sell a lot of high end cars.
For most RF shooters who don't want to, or can't, spend that kind of money, a RF film camera with a good scanner is the digital answer.
Stephen Gandy
But where does it stand in the M digital marketplace?
The leader, by default.
Despite its fans, the Epson RD1/s has been effectively abandoned by Epson. Epson didn't know how to sell it, and after one production run, Epson gave up. Sure an RD2 was planned even before the RD1 was introduced, but it will never be made. From here on out, I believe the RD parts and repair situation will only
get a lot worse.
What about a digital Zeiss ZM or Voigtlander? Probably not any time soon. One, or more likely two years away, IF then. I personally expect to see a M8 Mark II before I see a digital ZM or VM. There is a REASON why Leica had so much trouble with a digital M. At this point in digital technology, it AIN'T EASY!
That leaves the M8 as the once and future digital M king for the foreseeable future. A camera for people with money, to be sure. But Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, etc sure sell a lot of high end cars.
For most RF shooters who don't want to, or can't, spend that kind of money, a RF film camera with a good scanner is the digital answer.
Stephen Gandy
Sailor Ted
Well-known
M8 a lot of money? From what I can deduce it cost a fortune to develop the camera- let's say Leica gives 28 points to dealers this means they only gross $3400. Subtract from that the shrinking dollar and they net even less from their biggest export market. Now let's say it costs Leica $1200 to manufacture the thing (including labor? I don't know). I'd say Leica pockets no more then $2k per unit and most likely less- now lets factor the cost of the recall and the cost of shelving parts for repair and their margin shrinks by even more. I'd guess they will sell no more then 10,000 units total at no more then $1500 net net profit per unit so it's a thin line.
Now factor the cost of developing film- I shoot aprox 1000 to 1500 exposures per week on a photog trip. That’s about $350 to $450 per week for film and development depending on if I shoot slide or print film (print development costs can and do go much higher then this). Add to this the time spent scanning slides and the hassle of film at airports and the M8 pays for it's self very quickly. Of course your mileage and shooting may vary so factor this into your return on investment. And of course you may just love film in which case this is a non-issue. But if you love to shoot a lot, don't want to hassle with film and or just can't stand the thought of lugging a heavy DSLR around the globe the Leica M8 is a breath of fresh air that quickly pays for it's self.
So Leica delivered a product at a very tight margin (for them) and they stand behind their product. Seems fair to me.
PS. I am sure someone will have a better idea of actual dealer margins and production costs as well as comparative savings of film vs. digital. This I feel is an excellent topic when discussing the overall value of the M8.
PSS. When I first read this post I felt like I just heard Walter Cronkite declare, for the first time, that the war in Vietnam is "unwinnable."
Now factor the cost of developing film- I shoot aprox 1000 to 1500 exposures per week on a photog trip. That’s about $350 to $450 per week for film and development depending on if I shoot slide or print film (print development costs can and do go much higher then this). Add to this the time spent scanning slides and the hassle of film at airports and the M8 pays for it's self very quickly. Of course your mileage and shooting may vary so factor this into your return on investment. And of course you may just love film in which case this is a non-issue. But if you love to shoot a lot, don't want to hassle with film and or just can't stand the thought of lugging a heavy DSLR around the globe the Leica M8 is a breath of fresh air that quickly pays for it's self.
So Leica delivered a product at a very tight margin (for them) and they stand behind their product. Seems fair to me.
PS. I am sure someone will have a better idea of actual dealer margins and production costs as well as comparative savings of film vs. digital. This I feel is an excellent topic when discussing the overall value of the M8.
PSS. When I first read this post I felt like I just heard Walter Cronkite declare, for the first time, that the war in Vietnam is "unwinnable."
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Mackinaw
Think Different
Well put Stephen.
Jim Bielecki
Jim Bielecki
Flyfisher Tom
Well-known
you have the ear of Mr. Kobayashi, what does he say about the viability of the VM?
ywenz
Veteran
CameraQuest said:
Stephen, that is a flawed comparison. Luxury cars are at the forefront of automotive technology and safety. People buy them for those reason as well as their name recongnition.
Leica M8 takes away camera technology from the user to give you a bare bone camera that excels ( in theory ) at taking images. Short of camera geeks like us no one knows what a Leica is. This is the equivalent of Rolls Royce restarting the production of the 1950s Silver Cloud complete with manual windows, AM radio, and no airbags and tries to convince the consumer that this is the best automobile in the world. Sure it'll be a nice car to own and look at for people with money, but I guarantee it won't sell a lot.
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Sailor Ted
Well-known
ywenz said:
ywenz,
Good points all and that is the point- "won't sell a lot." I am sure Leica has a market segment that they MUST penetrate if they are to stay in business. This number would be laughably small for the likes of Canon or Nikon but perhaps it will be enough for them to stick around for a few more years. This camera geek hopes so as it would be painfully difficult for me to run with the Canon as you have chosen to do and film is pretty much a non-option for most of my shooting these days.
PS. more people then you think recognize the Leica and RF camera platform as being "high-end." I can't tell you how many people notice and admire every range finder camera I own when out and taking shots. It's like pulling up to a cafe in a 1950's Silver Cloud. People gather round, ask questions and admire : )
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Didier
"Deed"
I still believe Zeiss has digital plans for their rangefinder. But if they come out within 2 yrs. is another question. Photokina 09? Or before?
What about Nikon? They must have some RF-crazy members amongst their top executives, otherwise the recent S3 and SP re-releases wouldn't have happened. And if the tinkerers at Epson can put a Nikon D100 sensor in a Voigtlander Bessa, why shouldn't Nikon be able for such a project, too?
Didier
What about Nikon? They must have some RF-crazy members amongst their top executives, otherwise the recent S3 and SP re-releases wouldn't have happened. And if the tinkerers at Epson can put a Nikon D100 sensor in a Voigtlander Bessa, why shouldn't Nikon be able for such a project, too?
Didier
Bob Ross
Well-known
Hi Stephen,CameraQuest said:
You may be right, though the price may be a target for other mfrs. I suspect some mfrs are watching the M8 closely as a concept. Asia is famous for copying Leica, all the way up to the Hexar and Bessa. Asia may decide to bring an M-mount "digital" body out incorpoating electronic substitues for the rangefinder and framelines and most of the DSLR goodies. I remember reading in a forum that Pentax had recently filed a patent on a rangefinder idea. The luxury class price point must be attractive, though there are obstacles with sensor fall off. The Asian mfrs. complex could....if they wanted to.
Bob
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Bob Ross said:
Sounds like the 4/3's format to me and to me it stinks- M mount or other wise.
Bob Ross said:
If built to the same high build standards and configuration (optical range finder/ milled from solid brass, etc) as the current M8 I doubt they'll eye it with hunger for juicy "high end" margins unless they can significantly expand the market segment.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Flyfisher Tom said:
Since we have Stephen's ear I'm going to make a shameless, off topic request.
I bet Mr Kobayashi could sell a whole pile of AUFSU type waist level finders (35/50) at the bargain basement price of $150 dollars.
Now back to the M8.
I certainly think there is a market for a compact, lowkey camera that delivers professional results. Aside from the IR issue that is resolved with a filter, the M8 appears to produce very high quality files. Over the years I have spoken to many working pros, who yearned for a digital M, when a big DSLR was intrusive or too conspicuous. If Leica can sell 10,000-12,000 units a year they will continue to hang in there. And along those lines, for me the bewildering weak-point of the M8 isn't the IR issue or the green blobs. It's the lack of weather sealing. What on earth was Leica thinking? A $5000 electronic camera, that is supposedly also aimed at professionals, that may fry itself in a shower or high humidity? To some people this may seem like a trivial issue, but there are others who can't just leave the camera home if it is raining out etc.
Other than that I do wish they would get off of the 4/3rds bandwagon. In my opinion it's a technological dead-end, since it appears that it is next to impossible to get low noise, high iso images out of a sensor that small. Leica should have gone with an APS size chip, like the RD-1 uses, for their entry level digicam.
HL
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anselwannab
Well-known
I wonder if Leica would do an APS sized sensor model and bring it out under oe of their Japanese brand affilaites?
I still think that Viogtlander should bring out a B&W only, good high ISO digital RF based on the R3-4 platform. I would hope that a B&W model would be pure enough for Mr. K.
I agree that Nikon is a darkhorse.
I think Epson messed up by not selling lenses, even if they were rebranded ones. I've seen before that Canon makes more on the lenses than the bodies. At least it would improve the top line and get more corporate attention.
Mark
I still think that Viogtlander should bring out a B&W only, good high ISO digital RF based on the R3-4 platform. I would hope that a B&W model would be pure enough for Mr. K.
I agree that Nikon is a darkhorse.
I think Epson messed up by not selling lenses, even if they were rebranded ones. I've seen before that Canon makes more on the lenses than the bodies. At least it would improve the top line and get more corporate attention.
Mark
Flyfisher Tom
Well-known
Harry Lime said:I bet Mr Kobayashi could sell a whole pile of AUFSU type waist level finders (35/50) at the bargain basement price of $150 dollars.
I agree, and I'd be first in line to get one ... or at least second behind Harry
ZeissFan
Veteran
Did you ever write a report on what you saw at the Cosina factory? I think Huck Finn mentioned that you had planned to write about that.
AusDLK
Famous Photographer
>...for me the bewildering weak-point of the M8 isn't the IR issue or the green
>blobs. It's the lack of weather sealing. What on earth was Leica thinking?
And, for crying out loud, have you heard the horrible noise this POS makes? May as well be a clacking, grinding DSLR...
>blobs. It's the lack of weather sealing. What on earth was Leica thinking?
And, for crying out loud, have you heard the horrible noise this POS makes? May as well be a clacking, grinding DSLR...
blakley
blakley
Short of camera geeks like us no one knows what a Leica is.
Totally wrong. Here's a list of the people who have asked me "Is that a digital Leica?" in the last week:
9th grader at my daughter's school.
Waitresses:4 (at 4 different establishments.)
Random strangers on the sidewalk: 3
Concierge (from Monterrey, Mex.) at a hotel in town
Piano player at same hotel
Gas station attendant
Elderly couple at next table over at dinner
Hairdresser (seated next to me at bar)
Realtor (ditto)
That's one week. Not atypical.
Totally wrong. Here's a list of the people who have asked me "Is that a digital Leica?" in the last week:
9th grader at my daughter's school.
Waitresses:4 (at 4 different establishments.)
Random strangers on the sidewalk: 3
Concierge (from Monterrey, Mex.) at a hotel in town
Piano player at same hotel
Gas station attendant
Elderly couple at next table over at dinner
Hairdresser (seated next to me at bar)
Realtor (ditto)
That's one week. Not atypical.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
Harry Lime said:
They were thinking of people like me, who mostly photograph indoors. I'm having trouble remembering the last time I took pictures outside, other than family snapshots.
funky1
Newbie
Is it realy that loud?
rvw
Sailor Ted
Well-known
It's not loud and it's certainly not the POS in this two horse race. Something smacks of VENDETTA from that one.
J. Borger
Well-known
Weathersealing would be nice .... but would not bring very much because none of the lenses is weathersealed .... so you have to use somekind of plastic bag in the rain anyhow!
IGMeanwell
Well-known
I would love if Leica offered a lens body package for us noobs
Like a M8 + 50 cron ... I think that would entice some new generations into the Leica digital
even if it does cost more than I would ever want to spend on a camera
Like a M8 + 50 cron ... I think that would entice some new generations into the Leica digital
even if it does cost more than I would ever want to spend on a camera