Minolta 16-p

[Arash]

Hi

I’ve come by a Minolta 16.

This little camera has no business being so much fun! That's a qualified statement, in that I don't actually have any results from it yet. But the reaction it gets from people is such an icebreaker, you can’t help but smile.

It was already loaded with film from the early 70's with a few frames exposed. I hurriedly finished the roll anticipating those early shots, but sadly the entire strip came out black.

I'm hoping this has to do with the age of the film (50+ years!) and not the functionality of the camera.

Knowing very little, I bought a roll of iso 200 110 film and was surprised the cartilage didn't fit this camera. I’ve since managed to extract the 110 film and loaded it into the MP-16 cartridge. Fingers crossed this roll will produce something!

Expecting/hoping a working camera, I've purchased a roll of MINOLTA 16 50D COLOR NEGATIVE / 50 iso / Process: ECN-2 from the fimphotographystorecom although I’m not certain how/where to get that developed.

Any tips on the camera would be appreciated from people familiar with it.

I understand it has a set shutter speed of 1/00 and an f/3.5 fixed focus lens of 25mm.

What does that translate to in the 35mm format?

And what is the closest focusing distance?

Anyway, super excited and having fun and zero to show for it so far!

View attachment 110957

Cheers Arash

 

[Sonnar Brian]

You used to buy film and send to Minolta for processing. If I were to start using mine again, would buy a roll of 16mm movie film and load the cassettes. They are reusable. The instruction book that came with the camera had a section for reloading the cassettes. I have the Minolta 16-II, which has shutter speeds 1/30 to 1/500th, and F2.8 through to F16.

 

[webOSUser]

I have two Minolta 16 cameras and enjoy them.
The Film Photography Project has 16mm bulk film available I bought a roll of Kodak XX from them and reload the Minolta 16 cassettes. As Sonnar Brian wrote, the manual includes information about how to reload the cassettes. If you do not have a manual, check Butkus.com. There is a person on eBay that sells Minolta 16 cassettes preloaded with film.
If you want to develop your 16mm film, there are stainless steel reels that occasionally are available on EBay. There are instructions on how to convert a a Paterson reel to 16mm.

Enjoy.
Steve W

 

[Arash]

Thanks for the replies.

Yes! I have a reel of iso 50 color negative film coming from the film photography project store. The website states it’s ECN-2 chemistry. I assume i can send that in for development anywhere?

I do have the manual and found loading the cartridge to be a lot easier than I anticipated. Of course i’ll have to wait and see the results with the 110 film i loaded first.

I do hope to start learning how to develop the film myself. Seems this format may be an economical way to get started in that.

My remaining questions are about the 35mm equivalence of the 25mm lens and the close focusing distance on the 16-P model.

Since first posting i’ve done a lot of web searches and found out about the Kiev 30 and 303.
Since I’ll be rolling my own film, I wouldn’t mind a nice red kiev 303, but I’ve found conflicting information as to weather the kiev 303 is backwards compatible with the Minolta 16 cartridges. Can anyone shed some light on that please?
Thanks!

 

[zuiko85]

The Minolta 16 P (and Ps) have a negative size of 10X14mm. That gives a factor of approximately 2.4x to determine the 35mm equivalent angle of view, or 2.4 x 25 = 60mm.
So, a long normal. It is simple to check if the shutter of your camera is working. Before you load film open the film loading door, look through the film gate, point the camera at a light, then advance and release the shutter. You should see a flash of light. If you have the Ps model with the front shutter switch then try both speeds, marked with a white dot, 1/100 sec. and red dot, 1/30 sec.

Edit; Yes, the Kiev 30, and the 303 can use the Minolta cartridge. There are also Russian made cartridges that pop up from time to time. Generally they will fit the Kiev fine but will not work on the Minolta because the core of the take up side is too small in diameter. As you probably have noted the Kiev has a larger negative size of 13X17mm and if you load single perf 16mm movie film make sure the perfs are by the cartridge bridge so they will not intrude into the larger frame too much. Ideally the Kiev should use unperforated film.

 

[zuiko85]

If you want to develop your own film you will need a developing reel that will adjust to 16mm. The best option I have found is the old Yankee Master tank and reels. The newer Yankee Clipper tank reel (if still available) will adjust to 16mm but they are very poor quality compared to an earlier ‘Master’ tank. They come up on ebay occasionally but the prices are very high compared to just 5 years ago. Around $50-$60 is not uncommon.
There are several articles on the net about modifying Patterson 35mm reels to 16mm but some seem overly complicated to me.
The Kiev has one big advantage over the Minolta, you can focus the lens, from infinity down to .5 meter. You model has the lens focus fixed to 5 meters, so stopping down to f8 or less is the only way to have enough DoF to stretch in focus areas to infinity.

 

[Arash]

Thank you for all the information.
When/if i get an actual picture with this camera i’ll post it here.
Thanks again.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I don't think most places can develop Minolta 16, and you may not get the cassettes back.

Best to develop your own.

 

[Godfrey]

Hi

I’ve come by a Minolta 16.

This little camera has no business being so much fun! That's a qualified statement, in that I don't actually have any results from it yet. But the reaction it gets from people is such an icebreaker, you can’t help but smile.
...

Any tips on the camera would be appreciated from people familiar with it.
I understand it has a set shutter speed of 1/00 and an f/3.5 fixed focus lens of 25mm.
What does that translate to in the 35mm format?
And what is the closest focusing distance?
Anyway, super excited and having fun and zero to show for it so far! ...
Cheers Arash

The best place for info about and people to talk with about submini cameras like the Minolta-16 is the Submini-L mailing list! Go to https://submini-l.groups.io/g/main and use the subscription email to sign up. Ask any/all of your questions there and a lively conversation will ensue with many knowledgeable users of these cameras.

There's an associated website run by one of the participants that is fantastic, a treasure trove of information about Minolta-16 and lots of other subminiature cameras: http://subclub.org/

I used to shoot with Minolta-16 a bit, but recently (within the past year) decided to concentrate on Minox for my subminiature obsession and sold all my Minolta-16 equipment to a couple of the guys on the Submini-L list. Quick answers to your questions above:

- The Minolta 16p has a fixed focus lens with apertures from f/3.5 to f/22. It has two shutter speeds: the lever on the front nets 1/100 sec, flipped down to the red dot, it nets about 1/30 sec.

- The 25mm focal length is about equivalent to a 45mm lens on FF 35mm cameras, although the format proportion is a bit more square.

- Since the lens is fixed focus, the camera was originally supplied with two close up lenses to allow focus adjustment for close range photos. Without them, the close-up sharp focus distance depends on the aperture: at f/11, the lens without close up lenses has a DoF from 6' to infinity.​

All of this information is in the owners instruction manual, which is available as a PDF downloadable file at:
https://www.cameramanuals.org/minolta_pdf/minolta_16_p.pdf

The Minolta 16p was the very first adjustable camera I bought for myself, once upon a day. And yes: the dinosaurs really were that big. 😀

G

 

[zuiko85]

Godfrey, Godfrey, Godfrey….
Let me correct a couple of technical errors in your post above.
The 16 P stops down to f16, not f22
The angle of view of a 25mm lens on a 10x14mm frame is closer to 60mm on full frame 35mm, not 45mm.
Yep, I know the two formats don’t have the same height to width ratio so no ‘exact’ figure is possible.

I’m not trying to be a loud mouth know-it-all……no really, I’m not.

 

[Shafovaloff1]

I have a few Minolta 16 models and also Mamiya. Colonial Photo in Orlando processed some color 16mm movie film but had a problem with removal of "remjet" coating in the process so you might find it a little difficult to send it out for processing if using color negative. I am sure others will have more input. Subclub has access to dof tables for several cameras that are fixed focus 16. BTW one of the most versatile fixed focus16's I have found is the Minolta MG with a meter and closeup lens cover attached. Recently Colonial Photo processed a 36 exposure roll shot in a Fuji 1/2 frame for me and the scans are sharp as a tack and the auto exposure, in finder needle with f stop and shutter speed, worked nicely. Though not a rangefinder it will focus from nearly 2 feet! On some Minolta there is a "No. 0" lens/filter attachment that provides greater distance focus....may be one to find. I have a small collection of print out dof tables for each of these cameras.

 

[Shafovaloff1]

BTW at some point the negative size for the 16mm film increased in some of the Minolta, I think the MG-S has a larger negative size than the Minolta 16 but the extra area greatly improves the usefulness IMHOP. And...I used some tie wire to make suspension wrap points to make up a Nikor SS 120 reel to process my 16mm b&w negative film and in a pinch it worked just fine.

 

[Shafovaloff1]

Sorry to digress but I thought since you were now into 16 that you might find your way to a Pen S or Fuji 1/2. 72 sharp well exposed frames from one roll of film is a great thing in my mind. I suppose you could actually cut the film at half way to process which I have done with a Contax I and which historically was built into the Rectaflex!

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The Minolta 16QT increased the negative size to 12mm by 17mm, had a 23mm f3.5 lens.
The 16-II has an F2.8 4-element lens, but was fixed-focus.

 

[Godfrey]

Godfrey, Godfrey, Godfrey….
Let me correct a couple of technical errors in your post above.
The 16 P stops down to f16, not f22
The angle of view of a 25mm lens on a 10x14mm frame is closer to 60mm on full frame 35mm, not 45mm.
Yep, I know the two formats don’t have the same height to width ratio so no ‘exact’ figure is possible.

I’m not trying to be a loud mouth know-it-all……no really, I’m not.

LOL ... Oops! Thanks for the corrections! 🙂

The 16 P stops down to f16, not f22

Doh! I thought "f/16", wrote "f/22". Probably because I was looking at the Retina IIIc a moment before... 😉

The angle of view of a 25mm lens on a 10x14mm frame is closer to 60mm on full frame 35mm, not 45mm.

Typo ... I meant to write 55mm, but I just ran the numbers again: It's actually between a 60 and 65 mm equivalence!

35mm FF:
Width=24mm, Length=36mm, Diagonal=43.2666mm
f-----Hor-------Vert------Diag
40-----48.4555---33.3985---56.8119
45-----43.6028---29.8628---51.3509
50-----39.5978---26.9915---46.7930
55-----36.2437---24.6160---42.9427
60-----33.3985---22.6199---39.6541
65-----30.9573---20.9198---36.8170

Minolta 16P:
Width=10-mm, Length=14-mm, Diagonal=17.2047mm
f-----Hor-------Vert------Diag
25-----31.2845---22.6199---37.9760

Thats what you get for answering from memory when you're over-tired! 😀

I never could remember the small differences between the Minolta 16 models. The 16P was my first, in later years I had the 16 and then 16II, which differed on shutter speeds available and a couple of other things IIRC. That's as far as it went. The biggest problem with the Minolta 16 cameras is the relative dearth of original Minolta 16 cassettes to work with; film itself is as yet no problem.

I decided to deconfuse myself and stick with Minox. Film seems much more available (I still have tons of Minox factory loaded APX25 and APX100, new is available from Blue Moon and other sources easily), I have the Minox processing tanks which work flawlessly, I have a bunch of good cassettes and coffins, and I've got two really good slitters to load alternative films when desired.

G

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Godfrey- I originally wrote "F22" for my Minolta 16-II, put pulled it out and saw it was F16. Diffraction- F22 would be a Diffraction problem, meaning ~1mm opening for the lens.

It's too bad that Minolta did not add a simple slide focus for the camera. It's a 4-element lens, the others are triplets. But- the Minolta 16-II is fixed focus at 9ft, relied on DOF.

 

[zuiko85]

One more possible correction to this surprise thread.
According to a Minolta ad folder from about 1961 the model 16II has a “Famous Rokkor 3-element, 22mm, coated, f:2.8 lens.”
Since I have a bunch of this model and this statement piqued my curiosity I disassembled one of my units, removed and opened the lens. It does indeed seem to have 3 elements. If there is a cemented doublet among the lens elements it escaped my close examination. None of the elements appear to be thick enough to be a cemented pair.
I believe, since the lens is a f2.8 optic we all expect it to be, well naturally 4 elements.
But apparently, it is not.
I found the ad folder on the submin.com site under; 16mm, manuals, 16II, document, ‘Imagine…a camera that hides in your hand. Minolta automatic 16II’

It has been over 10 years since I disassembled that lens so I hope my memory of findings is accurate.

It is now 3:23 AM and I have chronic insomnia if you can’t tell.

Edit; The submin.com site is an excellent source for copies of manuals and other documentation of subminiature cameras, plus other general information on a wide variety of cameras.

 

[Godfrey]

I originally wrote "F22" for my Minolta 16-II, put pulled it out and saw it was F16. Diffraction- F22 would be a Diffraction problem, meaning ~1mm opening for the lens.

It's too bad that Minolta did not add a simple slide focus for the camera. It's a 4-element lens, the others are triplets. But- the Minolta 16-II is fixed focus at 9ft, relied on DOF.

Yes, diffraction would certainly intrude on a 22-25mm lens at f/22. 🙂

Minox got around the diffraction problem with their 15mm by not including an adjustable diaphragm and leaving it wide open (f/3.5 on the focusing models, f/5.6 on the fixed focus models) ... the DoF is so great for the 8x11 format you can get away with wide open easily, just use slower film and include an ND filter for light control beyond the shutter's capability.

Minolta relied upon aperture control AND close-up lenses for focus control. All the Minolta-16/16II cameras came with the CU lenses IIRC, they were an accessory for the 16P. There are little pockets in the camera cases for the 16/16II where you stored them. The "0" CU netted a true infinity focus, the other two gave the range down to about 2-3 feet in two steps, again IIRC. CU lenses were a lot less expensive to develop than a decent focusing mount, I guess.

I never took one apart so I have no idea whether the lens was three or four elements.

G

 

[Sonnar Brian]

From the submini website:

http://submin.com/16mm/collection/minolta/index.htm

"In 1960 the Model II appeared and was sold until the introduction of the QT in 1972. It features a Rokkor f/2.8 22mm lens which stops down to f16, rather than f11, thus the stop range was increased at both the high and low ends. It now had a B setting for long exposures, and shutters speeds of 1/30, 1/60, 1/125, 1/250 and 1/500 s. The lens changed from a three-element to a four-element optic. The viewfinder now has lens on both front and rear of the camera. Finally, a "distance" lens (No.0), a slight negative dioptre lens, was added to the list of accessory lenses to allow infinity focus at all apertures and sharper pictures of distant objects at any aperture. Overall, these refinements make the camera more useful in more situations."

The lens is four elements, probably 4 elements in 3 groups- probably a Tessar. The Minolta 45mm F2.8 Super-Rokkor is a five-element lens. I have one in Leica mount, and one out of a Minolta 35 fixed-lens RF. Minolta lenses are first rate.

If you still have the lens elements: put them in boiling water, then drop into cold water- if you really want to see if it is a cemented doublet. I've done that once for a J-8M that I thought was a cemented doublet, it was actually a triplet. The actual individual elements were much different from the printed sources, curvature of the surfaces and thicknesses were different from the printed formula. I'm not doing this for my 4-element Minolta 22/2.8, I'll take their word for it.

The lens kit was an extra for the 16-II, was not included in the Kit. You could buy the camera buy itself, or a kit which included the AG-1 flash and accessory "shoe on a clamp". There was also a filter set. The plastic lens and filter cases are neat, you turn them to drop the slide-in lenses and filters out. I got the kit for a Christmas present when I was 13, from my parents. I bought the filter set for $5 or so. Traded it off for a 35mm lens, or something ages ago- bought a replacement kit off Ebay not long ago. A friend gave me a 16-II camera and case some 40 years ago, replaced the one I traded off. The one off Ebay- could be my original, has all the paperwork and the Sn is about the same time. Glad I kept the HiMatic-9 I bought in 1969, that was a lot of lawn mowing.

 

[zuiko85]

From the submini website:

http://submin.com/16mm/collection/minolta/index.htm

"In 1960 the Model II appeared and was sold until the introduction of the QT in 1972. It features a Rokkor f/2.8 22mm lens which stops down to f16, rather than f11, thus the stop range was increased at both the high and low ends. It now had a B setting for long exposures, and shutters speeds of 1/30, 1/60, 1/125, 1/250 and 1/500 s. The lens changed from a three-element to a four-element optic. The viewfinder now has lens on both front and rear of the camera. Finally, a "distance" lens (No.0), a slight negative dioptre lens, was added to the list of accessory lenses to allow infinity focus at all apertures and sharper pictures of distant objects at any aperture. Overall, these refinements make the camera more useful in more situations."

This however was probably written by the site author. Other than the copy of a Minolta ad folder cited I’ve seen no reference in Minolta literature or camera manuals as to the number of elements in that lens. The front and rear elements are very thin and definitely not cemented doublets. The center negative element seems to be permanently affixed to the lens center body and measuring with a mike is also quite thin. In any 4 element lens I’ve never seen a lens diagram where the middle element was a cemented pair. All this evidence leads me to believe that the 22mm lens really is just 3 elements.
All other details listed are correct. The ‘0’ distance lens is minus .25 diopter and brings the focus to 10 meters according to the Japanese language instruction manual. For a 22mm lens that is close enough to infinity as makes no practical difference. When shooting with my 16II the ‘0’ lens is almost always attached and I use a little add on adapter for series 5 filters and +1, +2, or +5 close up lenses. They are much easier to add (at the expense of more bulk) than those tiny but very fiddling Minolta auxiliary lenses.
Just a couple of weeks ago a Kiev 30 arrived from Ukraine, still exposing the second roll so don’t know yet how it will do. So nice though to dispense with close up and distance lenses. Really too bad the 16II didn’t have a focusing lens. That would have made the camera so much more useful.