More over-the-top railfan photo bull$#!+

dmr

dmr

Registered Abuser
Local time
3:24 AM
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Messages
4,649
This kinda hits home, since I've occasionally shot in that very area.

Surf here and look at the March 8-10 entries from "R".

http://railfanrails.blogspot.com/

The abandoned BNSF depot they refer to is a frequent setting for photo shoots, such as Trash The Dress and other "earthy" scenes.
 
I don't get it. Why do they get so upset with photographers? or is it this one guy in particular or what? I have taken many pictures of Southern Pacific trains in the past on their property and never ran into any issues. Is this attitude a new thing?
 
Soothsayerman said:
I don't get it. Why do they get so upset with photographers? or is it this one guy in particular or what? I have taken many pictures of Southern Pacific trains in the past on their property and never ran into any issues. Is this attitude a new thing?
Click to expand...

In re-reading the item, I'm wondering if there's a "rest of the story" here? Something like the guy (I assume it's a "guy") hastily departing the area or getting mouthy with the railroad cops or something like that?
 
Railroads have become much less tolerant toward trespassers in the past decade and employees are required to report non-employees on company property and the right-of-way. Part of it is liability, part of it is a reaction to theft and vandalism.

Some photographers seem to have a great deal of trouble with special agents, some seem to be able to make the photos they want without shouting matches and visits from the FBI.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/74312783@N00/sets/72157626112602651/
 
I'm an avid railfan living in Canada (Vancouver area) and so far I haven't seen anything like this up here. As long as I respect the fact that railroad property "is" private and shoot from the sidelines, so to speak, I haven't had any issues myself.

Over the years my attitude has changed significantly. In the 80s I thought nothing of walking the rails, climbing cars and wandering freely through yards. Today that has all changed--terrorism (perceived or real), liability and vandalism have completely altered the relationship between railroads and fans. I accept this and find that it's still easy to get lots of good shots from publicly accessible sites but I do encounter the odd person who feels it's their divine right to shoot anywhere, anyplace, anytime and I do think they're the ones having the most problems.

Being harassed if you're shooting from public property is another issue and it is, to say the least, troubling. Railfan & Railroad Editor Steve Barry was recently arrested and handcuffed on a New York City subway platform while waiting to photograph an historical train special. A judge apparently immediately threw out the charges but the incident illustrates the attitude of some law enforcement/security people and the issues that exist between them and railfans and/or photographers in general. We haven't heard the end of this by a long shot...
 
I am also a railfan, being in Canada things are different, i shoot two short line railroads and so far i've had no problems. I do have friends who've experienced these kind of situations in the states however. Since 9/11 railroad security has increased and the amount of information public on the railroads has greatly diminished. I used to track boxcars I liked so I would know when they were coming into town, we were able to do so by calling a hotline. These aren't available to the public anymore.

It seems like this persons situation is quite extravagant however, to be considered a terrorist for enjoying the railroads is awful. This attack on railfans will certainly result in their disappearance. sad.
 
For the longest, the US railway system was the forgotten element in mass transportation - especially in the US where it is a often a minor public transport system outside of major cities. Security of same was lax. That's changed since it is a overlooked AND viable soft target when all the security attention has been directed at the airline. The train bombing incidents in Spain and the UK have brought our rail system under a stricter security scrutiny.

If you're messing around tracks, an active rail station - if you look out of the ordinary, and especially if your taking a pictures - someone is going to approach you with questions and take pains to identify you. That's their job. If you become a real pain in kiester about it - the Feds will get involved - protecting the public is also their job. Taking photos of trains, train stations, etc seems innocent enough and most often is. On the other hand, taking pictures and notes of your intended target is also one of the fundamental steps in pre-planning - i.e gathering information on your target. Just saying your a photographer isn't a viable cover story anymore. And don't take it out on the guy doing his job. More often than you would like to know - some guy on the ball and alert by sticking his nose into suspicious stuff has stopped a whole world of grief from happening.

The world isn't so simple anymore.
 
the Agent for the BNSF obviously has an anger management problem. I've seen these situations from various "security" envorcement officials who believe that their word is law. I think this will not go down well based on recent judgements handed down for encounters with photographers on public property and arrested or charged by police or some form of security personnel

I really think Police and Security industry employers are now running risks they didn't previously.Failing to educate their staff on where, when and how to stop or prevent tresspass of photographers now is bringing cases before courts and the success ratio has been consistent. Photography from public spaces is being upheld by court decisions. Initally there were few cases involving these situations, now there's a sample of cases for NYC, Atlanta, and others. Here are some decisions against the "out of line" enforcement process being levied against the police.

Here are a couple of links.
http://www.flickr.com/groups/leavemealone/discuss/72157625988679343/
http://www.flickr.com/groups/leavemealone/discuss/72157625790515189/
http://www.flickr.com/groups/leavemealone/discuss/72157623797307059/
................
 
Last edited:
The only way to discern the harmless Joe taking pictures and bad guys taking pictures from public property is to ask questions. Obviously "tact" is something that isn't issued upon birth and tact applies to the person asking questions and to the person being asked the questions. There's often a fine line that separates protecting public freedom and protecting the public - sometimes that line gets very blurry. I'm not defending to this particular railway worker, but protectors of the public in general. Everyone hates it when their business gets nosed into and then when something violent happens that involves death and destruction on a large scale, most of the same people wanna know why the folks that protect them or protect access weren't doing their job. And asking questions and getting nosey with picture takers is often all about protecting the public - because you'd rather catch folks in the planning stage and not the execution stage. If it gets to the latter - a whole lot of folks didn't do their job.


I never really had the problem of folks refusing to answer questions because I had a lot of "battle rattle" on and an M-4 combat slung. And yes they were taking pictures from a public right away - but what they were taking pictures of was restricted by Uncle Sam from photography. And yes - Uncle Sam can tell you no pictures and if you still insist, Uncle Sam can and will confiscate your film for developing. You'll get the personal harmless stuff back - the no-no stuff gets kept. Been there-done that. I didn't take the film - that's what I had a US Marshal for.
 
Last edited:
jan normandale said:
the Agent for the BNSF obviously has an anger management problem. I've seen these situations from various "security" envorcement officials who believe that their word is law. I think this will not go down well based on recent judgements handed down for encounters with photographers on public property and arrested or charged by police or some form of security personnel
Click to expand...

This "R" guy surfaced and zeroed right in on the discussion on the local board, more specifically my post.

Here's the thread if anybody cares. I think you can read it without logging in:

http://eomahaforums.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=164997

From reading this guy's remarks, I'm sure that both parties were in part guilty for escalating the situation. If the guy got as mouthy with the railroad cop as he got with some of the local people, I can understand why things got all blown up. :(

This is one of those things I probably should not have posted here. :(
 
Ken Smith said:
On the other hand, taking pictures and notes of your intended target is also one of the fundamental steps in pre-planning - i.e gathering information on your target.
Click to expand...

This is now easily done from any computer with internet access using Google Earth. My problem with this situation was the goon's attitude that the photographer was a terrorist and will be treated like one. Based on the article that is exactly what happened. So, was this the law at work protecting us, or some a-hole using the law for revenge or something else?

Maybe the world is not so simple anymore but that's no reason to tolerate stupidity.

Best regards,

Bob
 
When it comes to taking photographs, even a rent-a-cop should know that cellphones are infinitely more dangerous than cameras. You can shoot away with a cellphone while pretending to have a conversation. Why cellphone users don't get harassed? They should.
 
This is now easily done from any computer with internet access using Google Earth.
Click to expand...

Sorry - you want real time intel that you get from having boots on the ground. Google Earth images are often a year are so older and it doesn't give you things like the comings/goings of employees, level of security, traffic flows, heaviest flow of people. You're trying get to get the biggest bucks (collateral damage, fatalities, etc) out of your actions. You're also wanting to get in/out without the act being discovered - i.e how long it took someone to respond to your presence or if they even did. Your going to build a model or a mock up and do dry runs. You're going to find all the loopholes in the sytem and how best to exploit them. You can't Google that.
 
Ken the level of "terror" in the United States is so statistically small that it becomes challenging to defend the whole process of massive security expenditures when ordinary "policing" done by most States or Municipalities can deal with the situations. Since January 2004 there have been 32 "terrorist incidents" in the US. None perpetrated by 'camera wielding terrorists'

the link tells the story from authoritative sources "Worldwide Incidents Tracking System" on a global watch basis

All Terrorist defined attacks in the United States since 2004 : WITS link
 
Slightly off topic buy funny :)

ther eis a new snooty deli/bodega in our heighborhood...the sort of place only beautiful, smart. arty folks work :)

On a nice Sat afternoon we decided to try it out...walked in and waited to be seated/get ordering instructions. I had my crown 2x3 with me. The young lady walked up and said to me ," No cameras, no photography"..not a hello, not a "How are you". I asked about cel phone cameras and she could not seem to understand the issue :)

Funny enough there was not a damn thing in there worth wasting my film or money on
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom