Multiple Questions on Use of R-D1

[barjohn]

One topic I have not seen mentioned anywhere is the lack of a self timer. Today, I asked around at a used camera store and picked up a mechanical unit that screws into the thread for a sync cable and that seems to work. Still surprised there isn't an electronic way to take a picture with the photographer in the frame.

Given the very shallow DOF for most of the lenses popular with the R-D1 I have wondered how one shoots street type photography. Do you put the camera up to your eye, focus and shoot or do you shoot from the hip trying to guess at range ans stop way down to f11 or f16 to get a large DOF? A 28mm lens at f3.5 with the subject 6ft way only has a DOF of 2.02'. It will be hard to get a focused picture unless the lens is stopped way down to f11 or f16. Longer lenses like an f40 have a depth of filed in inches. This doesn't seem to bode well for candid street shots.

Aren't you at risk snapping peoples pictures that you did not get to sign a consent and waiver form?

It would seem to me that for good street work where you wanted to zone focus would require a 12 mm or 15mm lens. Am I wrong?

John

 

[Johnmcd]

It would seem to me that for good street work where you wanted to zone focus would require a 12 mm or 15mm lens. Am I wrong?

John[/quote]



No, not at all. Here are some 40mm (good for street) at f16 or F11. But on a Bessa R3A not RD-1, though it shouldn't make much difference.

Cheers,

John

 

[RML]

The lack of a self timer hasn't bothered me at all in the 20+ months I've been using my R-D1.

I can't really remember when I deliberately set an aperture of over f8. Even when shooting in the street f8 is for me more than enough. I care more about having hand holdable shutter times (even at dusk and dawn) so I often end up using f2.8. I can't say it's impeding my shooting. Then again, perhaps I don't shoot as close as 6 feet away so often.

 

[furcafe]

I don't use self-timers w/any of my cameras, so I can't speak to that issue.

As far as your street shooting questions, they apply to all cameras, not just the R-D1. In fact, for a given field of view, the R-D1's 1.5x crop factor gives you more DoF than an equivalent 35mm film camera.

I don't normally use zone focusing, hyperfocal focusing, or shoot from the hip, but I see no reason why you couldn't use those techniques w/the R-D1 the same way that you would w/a film camera. As I understand it, zone focusing doesn't mean that you don't guesstimate distances @ all (that would be more like using hyperfocus), just that you rely on DoF to cover any small errors, so in your example, 2' of DoF @ 6' is plenty if you know that your subject is 6' away (not difficult w/practice & practice is pretty cheap w/a digital camera like the R-D1). Moreover, while many street shooters use hyperfocal focusing, zone focusing, & hip shooting in conjunction w/wides & superwides @ small apertures (hence the widespread use of fast films like Tri-X, etc.), many do not. E.g., Cartier-Bresson managed to zone focus w/a 50mm, many shooters use 35mm, & many other shooters like myself just focus as quickly as possible.

Re: the legality of shooting on the street, in the U.S., if your subjects are in a public space, they have no reasonable expectation of privacy & there's no need for a model release unless you want to use those photos commercially (& commercially generally means much more than displaying a print in a gallery or selling a few prints, it means using the photo to sell a product or service). Here's a photo.net thread that discusses those issues:

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00JCa1&tag=

One topic I have not seen mentioned anywhere is the lack of a self timer. Today, I asked around at a used camera store and picked up a mechanical unit that screws into the thread for a sync cable and that seems to work. Still surprised there isn't an electronic way to take a picture with the photographer in the frame.

Given the very shallow DOF for most of the lenses popular with the R-D1 I have wondered how one shoots street type photography. Do you put the camera up to your eye, focus and shoot or do you shoot from the hip trying to guess at range ans stop way down to f11 or f16 to get a large DOF? A 28mm lens at f3.5 with the subject 6ft way only has a DOF of 2.02'. It will be hard to get a focused picture unless the lens is stopped way down to f11 or f16. Longer lenses like an f40 have a depth of filed in inches. This doesn't seem to bode well for candid street shots.

Aren't you at risk snapping peoples pictures that you did not get to sign a consent and waiver form?

It would seem to me that for good street work where you wanted to zone focus would require a 12 mm or 15mm lens. Am I wrong?

John

 

[iml]

Never used a self timer. Sometimes I shoot from the hip, sometimes I zone focus, sometimes I focus and compose through the viewfinder. Most of my street photography is f5.6, f8, or f11 with a 35/1.7 CV Ultron. If shooting in darker conditions, increase the ISO if you're worried about DOF, the R-D1 has good high ISO performance.

Ian

 

[barjohn]

Thanks to all of you for the information. It is interesting to see the variety of methods and opinions expressed.

The reason for the self timer question has to do with vacation photography. We often vacation with one or two other couples and occasionally want a group shot as a momento. It can be difficult to find someone that can take a rangefinder and shoot a picture when the average person is used to auto focused P&S and thinks all they have to do is say cheeze and push the button. Thus, a self timer makes it easier to find a place to set up the camera, prefocus on the group, set the self timer and go get in the picture.

According to the DOF calculator, 35mm film with a 35mm lens @f5.6 and the subject 10' away has a DOF of 10' while the R-D1 with the same lens has a DOF of 6', at f11 film has a DOF of 55' and the R-D1 only 16'. For the R-D1 to match the film camera it needs the 28mm lens when then give it a DOF of 72' (slightly better than the film camera with a 35mm lens. It seems to me that if you want all of your subjects to be in focus from 8' on and you want to shoot in lower light, you either need a much wider lens or high ISo and shoot above f8. Am I interpreting this info incorrectly? It has been a while since I shot with film and I recently sold my D-Lux 3 to buy the R-D1. The D-Lux 3 at 28mm (equivalent setting) and f2.8 has a DOF of 63' and a much smaller COC so everything appears tack sharp but it is very hard to get Bokeh unless you zoom out well above it 50MM equivalent.

I only have two 40mm lenses right now (a Minolta f2 and the CV 1.4 Nockton). I plan to sell one and purchase a 28mm (not sure which one to get, a CV 3.5 or Minolta 2.8 if I can find one). Any suggestions as to which would be better with this camera? The faster CV appears to be larger and heavier than I want to carry.

John

 

[ampguy]

RD1 gives greater DOF than film

RD1 gives greater DOF than film

With a 28mm lens at 3.5 on the RD1, due to the crop, you actually get close to 2 feet of DOF at f3.5 (at 6 ft.). Check out www.dofmaster.com and their online calculators which have data plugged in for various digicams (and full frame film).

One topic I have not seen mentioned anywhere is the lack of a self timer. Today, I asked around at a used camera store and picked up a mechanical unit that screws into the thread for a sync cable and that seems to work. Still surprised there isn't an electronic way to take a picture with the photographer in the frame.

Given the very shallow DOF for most of the lenses popular with the R-D1 I have wondered how one shoots street type photography. Do you put the camera up to your eye, focus and shoot or do you shoot from the hip trying to guess at range ans stop way down to f11 or f16 to get a large DOF? A 28mm lens at f3.5 with the subject 6ft way only has a DOF of 2.02'. It will be hard to get a focused picture unless the lens is stopped way down to f11 or f16. Longer lenses like an f40 have a depth of filed in inches. This doesn't seem to bode well for candid street shots.

Aren't you at risk snapping peoples pictures that you did not get to sign a consent and waiver form?

It would seem to me that for good street work where you wanted to zone focus would require a 12 mm or 15mm lens. Am I wrong?

John

 

[barjohn]

Yes, I agree, you do get 2' and I am using the DOF calculator but it shows less DOF for the R-D1 versus film. See my last post.

John

 

[ampguy]

keeping effective focal length constant

keeping effective focal length constant

or field of view, which means ~42mm on film = ~28mm on RD1 gives ~25% less DOF for film.

Yes, I agree, you do get 2' and I am using the DOF calculator but it shows less DOF for the R-D1 versus film. See my last post.

John

 

[RichC]

It seems to me that if you want all of your subjects to be in focus from 8' on and you want to shoot in lower light, you either need a much wider lens or high ISo and shoot above f8. Am I interpreting this info incorrectly?

Or stand further away, increasing the field of view, as Ampguy says and Furcafe implies.

I've an article on digital DOF on my R-D1 info website: http://www.richcutler.co.uk/r-d1/r-d1_02.htm

 

[barjohn]

or field of view, which means ~42mm on film = ~28mm on RD1 gives ~25% less DOF for film.

The DOF calculater uses the actual rated value for the lens, not the effective value. Thus, if the same 35 mm lens is being used on both the R-D1 and a film camera, the Film will have a greater DOF. I was talking actual lens value not effective value due to croping factor of 1.5.

No one has commented on the Minolta 28mm/2.8 versuse either of the CV 28mm lenses. I am looking for high contrast and sharpness. I have read in other posts that the CV is low contrast and not a very sharp lens. I haven't seen much on the Minolta.

 

[Xmas]

The DOF calculator is dependent upon the enlargment you plan on making, (not the rated value for the lens), so an A4 and and A3 print need different DOF criteria, it is an effective value, it is also dependent upon how you look at print. A loope is cheating, you may need to ask the manu what criteria he used.

If you always plan on big then you may need to 'derate' the calculator, the crop factor does compromise the calculator but only if you want the print size the calculator was calculated for, and use the same viewing distance.

Noel

 

[ferider]

No one has commented on the Minolta 28mm/2.8 versuse either of the CV 28mm lenses. I am looking for high contrast and sharpness. I have read in other posts that the CV is low contrast and not a very sharp lens. I haven't seen much on the Minolta.

Both CV lenses are _very_ sharp, and the 28/3.5 (like all color skopars) has _strong_ contrast. The Ultron is more mellow in contrast but not giving up on sharpness. Many comment on the Ultron being of similar quality to the Summicron at f2.8 and up.

Not many people use the Minolta since it's (1) expensive (not much cheaper used than the Elmarit, Hexanon or ZI), and (2) often has spots on the front coating. Supposed to be a good lens though. Check with Raid Amin, he used to have one.

A typical Ultron photo:

Roland.

 

[mwooten]

In regards to the 28mm Minolta, there is one on the US e_ay. Current bid of about $200 with 8hrs to go. It does have spots.

Michael

 

[hub]

Re: the legality of shooting on the street, in the U.S., if your subjects are in a public space, they have no reasonable expectation of privacy & there's no need for a model release unless you want to use those photos commercially (& commercially generally means much more than displaying a print in a gallery or selling a few prints, it means using the photo to sell a product or service). Here's a photo.net thread that discusses those issues:

http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00JCa1&tag=

It also totally depend on the jusridiction. In France for example it does not matter whether it is in a public place or not. In Canada, there have been cases (at least in Québec) with lawsuit for pictures taken in public place leading to uncomfortable situation like Mr Celebrity seen with his mistress while shooting in the Montréal old port: they just happened to be there and aren't the subject of the picture.

And most of the time it is the publication that is a problem not the act of taking a picture.

PS: this is not a legal advice. Contact a lawyer if you want one

 

[barjohn]

The DOF calculator is dependent upon the enlargment you plan on making, (not the rated value for the lens), so an A4 and and A3 print need different DOF criteria, it is an effective value, it is also dependent upon how you look at print. A loope is cheating, you may need to ask the manu what criteria he used.

If you always plan on big then you may need to 'derate' the calculator, the crop factor does compromise the calculator but only if you want the print size the calculator was calculated for, and use the same viewing distance.

Noel

I didn't understand this comment at all. The DOF calculator says to use the actual lens value which I did to come up with my figures, along with selecting either film or R-D1. I have no idea what that has to do with print size or use of an enlarger.

Thanks for the info on the Minolta 28MM and CV lenses. If the Minolta has spots is that something to be concerned about? Will it effect the image?

John

 

[ferider]

I didn't understand this comment at all. The DOF calculator says to use the actual lens value which I did to come up with my figures, along with selecting either film or R-D1. I have no idea what that has to do with print size or use of an enlarger.

Thanks for the info on the Minolta 28MM and CV lenses. If the Minolta has spots is that something to be concerned about? Will it effect the image?

John

.) The DOF calculator defines the size of the "Circles of Confusion" (COC), normally .03mm on the focal/film plane. How much this matters in real
life depends on enlargement.

.) IMO, small front element defects (scratches, spots, "cleaning marks")
do not matter much, in particular if you use a hood. But I'm less picky
than others.

Roland.

 

[LCT]

...If the Minolta has spots is that something to be concerned about?...

Depends how many spots you have but if you've got some already it's like a desease that will necessarily worsen with time and no one can fix it as far as i know.
Mine is clean hopefully but this one is a good example of what you might be concerned about.
My advice: only buy clean Rokkor's 28/2.8.

 

[RichC]

The DOF calculator is dependent upon the enlargment you plan on making, (not the rated value for the lens), so an A4 and and A3 print need different DOF criteria

I didn't understand this comment at all. The DOF calculator says to use the actual lens value which I did to come up with my figures, along with selecting either film or R-D1. I have no idea what that has to do with print size

Depth of field is an optical illusion. Focus is only at one point, and as you move in front of and behind this point, the photo becomes increasingly blurred as out-of-focus spots (the "circles of confusion") become larger.

Depth of field calculators generally assume that you're making roughly 10 x 8" (or A4) sized prints. However, if you want to make a 20 x 16" print, the numbers for the depth of field calculators are incorrect as you're magnifying the out-of-focus spots, effectively reducing the depth of field. Conversely, you can increase the apparent depth of field of your 20 x 16" print by simply standing further away than you would when viewing a 10 x 8" photo (which most people would do naturally anyway).

In short, depth of field depends on:

• the lens (focal length and aperture)
• the camera format
• the printed size of the photo
• and anything else that magnifies/reduces the image (e.g. standing nearer to/further from the photo, using a loupe, or even zooming in/out on your screen)

 

[LCT]

Usual CoC values (0.03mm for 135 film, hence 0.03:1.5 = 0.02mm for APS-C cams) are so bad an approximation that they are still used for DoF markings on the lenses and modern DoF calculators.
Anyway only the results count. If other values do work for you they are good for you of course.
Now people contesting the usual CoC values are unable to suggest other ones instead generally.
I mean working ones of course.