angeloks
Well-known
Hi,
I have an M4-2 Canada. The serial on the coldshoe starts by 1468XXX. If I look at the list provided by CQ (http://www.cameraquest.com/leicanum.htm), it should be an R3 LP Green. This is obviously not the case! Is there something that I don't get?
Thanks,
I have an M4-2 Canada. The serial on the coldshoe starts by 1468XXX. If I look at the list provided by CQ (http://www.cameraquest.com/leicanum.htm), it should be an R3 LP Green. This is obviously not the case! Is there something that I don't get?
Thanks,
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
The main thing you're missing is Steve Gandy is not infallible and his list, although very good, is not perfect.
The first 100, or so, M4-2 cameras were in this serial range and had the Leitz Wetzlar stamp and "Made In Canada" engraving on the top cover (there are actually three or four early engraving variations found on these cameras). The very first group of M4-2s also had a red disk on the front of the camera (later revisited in the entire M4-P run).
These first set of numbers were contiguous and taken out of the group you referenced. It actually happens allot with Leicas - a group of numbers are assigned to a certain model, say an R3, and pulled for a new model (or a special edition), like an M4-2.
ALL M4-2s were made in Canada.
Obtong
Member
Acording to the Leica Forum Wiki, there are two kinds of M4-2's with serial numbers begining 1468XXX:
~Dom
- 1468001-1468100 Leica M4-2, 1977-78
- 1468101-1470000 Leica R3 Olive, 1977-78
~Dom
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
In keeping with the [other] typos in this post, I'm not so sure this is entirely accurate. I have seen M4-2 cameras with numbers in the 1,468,8xx range. I have also observed the Wetzlar/Canadian markings on M4-2s in the 1,48x,xxx range.
I believe many of these early M4-2 numbers were not recorded.
angeloks
Well-known
Thanks guys. Actually it is in the 1,468,8XX range!
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
One way to "authenticate" the very first series of M4-2's (the first 100) is to look at the drive take-up for the winder in the bottom. The first ones had only one cut out for the winder connection, the subsequent ones had two.
The first series of M4-2's were made up from Midland M4's. The drive and the winder were added features. The winder had a penchant for advancing film - but no exposure. I had one and I usually got 11-12 frames and a lot of blanks!
Due to the fact that it was easy to "fake" an early M4-2 ( M4P body covering with the correct red label on the front, accessory shoes could be changed - with the # number engraved on it.
That first batch also had a tendency to "bounce" the shutter - a 1/2 moon shaped exposure variant on the negative. Usually at 1/250 or 1/500. I bought several M4-2's when they came out - two early ones and both had shutter brakes replaced (warranty) and after that they worked very well. The later M4-2's are for all practical purposes the same as the M4P - except for the 28/75 frames in the latter.
The M4-2 is still a good camera, usually a bit cheaper than their "over-priced" German brethren's - but well built and with steel gears ( to take the winder).
As for serial numbers - Midland had a tendency to grab whatever block was not being used. I have had late version Summicron 90's with mid-70's number. Summicron 50's with different numbers on two identical lenses, one was a 1984 version, correct # - the other one a similar vintage with a late 70's #!!
The serial number lists are very much "hope over experience". The only reasonably safe listing is the factory shipping list - which specified what went where and what models and finishes they were. Midland was notorious for not keeping track of small stuff like that. Chrome M4-2's, 1/2 frame Md-2's etc - none of which are listed in the german listings!
The first series of M4-2's were made up from Midland M4's. The drive and the winder were added features. The winder had a penchant for advancing film - but no exposure. I had one and I usually got 11-12 frames and a lot of blanks!
Due to the fact that it was easy to "fake" an early M4-2 ( M4P body covering with the correct red label on the front, accessory shoes could be changed - with the # number engraved on it.
That first batch also had a tendency to "bounce" the shutter - a 1/2 moon shaped exposure variant on the negative. Usually at 1/250 or 1/500. I bought several M4-2's when they came out - two early ones and both had shutter brakes replaced (warranty) and after that they worked very well. The later M4-2's are for all practical purposes the same as the M4P - except for the 28/75 frames in the latter.
The M4-2 is still a good camera, usually a bit cheaper than their "over-priced" German brethren's - but well built and with steel gears ( to take the winder).
As for serial numbers - Midland had a tendency to grab whatever block was not being used. I have had late version Summicron 90's with mid-70's number. Summicron 50's with different numbers on two identical lenses, one was a 1984 version, correct # - the other one a similar vintage with a late 70's #!!
The serial number lists are very much "hope over experience". The only reasonably safe listing is the factory shipping list - which specified what went where and what models and finishes they were. Midland was notorious for not keeping track of small stuff like that. Chrome M4-2's, 1/2 frame Md-2's etc - none of which are listed in the german listings!
angeloks
Well-known
Thanks Tom for that exhaustive reply. That's pretty cool to know how the M4-2 production started.
sanmich
Veteran
I just bought one of these early M4-2. serial in the 1468xxx.
will get it after the holidays...
Tom, when you refer to the problems with the winder, is it only the first 100, or any of the early ones which are still with brass gear?
and would you know if the problem was related to the camera or to the winder (I remember this one was kind of a dud).
will get it after the holidays...
Tom, when you refer to the problems with the winder, is it only the first 100, or any of the early ones which are still with brass gear?
and would you know if the problem was related to the camera or to the winder (I remember this one was kind of a dud).
sc_rufctr
Leica nuts
I've had an M4-P for years... And it's every bit as good as anything from Germany. I'd expect the M4-2 to be much the same.
That's not surprising considering Walter Kluck was working for Leitz in Canada at the time.
That's not surprising considering Walter Kluck was working for Leitz in Canada at the time.